2 questions about that one amazing screenshot

[Dunedain]

After seeing how many different enterable buildings you were making for your large Thief mission, it occurred to me that if you maybe doubled that number or so that it could include just about every place (not sure of the exact number) from Thief I, II and III that is in The City itself. Of course, some of the places like the Hammer Cathedral have quite a few rooms and would take a good bit of effort. But small places like favorite shops and fences where Garrett can sell stolen stuff are just one or two rooms and could be done pretty quickly.

 

But, yeah, it probably would take several level designers at or near your skill level to be able to do it in a reasonable amount of time, and have everything look at least as good as it does in Thief III. But like you said, if different quarters of The City were divided among different level designers, then the work could proceed in parallel at a good pace and you could add detail and great lighting all over the place to give it that polished look. Then just add guards here and there at different places where appropriate in the streets, some merchants selling apples at the local fruit stands, maybe a barkeep at the inn, so the City has some life to it and doesn't look deserted, and you're all set.

 

The rest would be up to FM authors to add what they need (loot, guards inside certain buildings, etc.) for the specific mission they are creating. But the basic well-known parts of the City would in place. Imagine the cool depiction of The City from Thief III and how great it looks, then add onto that some places from Thief I and II that weren't included in Thief III. Then either make it one big level or, as you suggested, divide it into several large sections that are bigger (less portals, more united) than the continuous areas that the Unreal 2 engine could handle in Thief III. And that illustrates the idea pretty well.

 

This would provide a familiar hub to operate from in Thief fan missions in TDM; like in Thief III, where part of the adventure takes place there in the city locations on Garrett's home turf, and with the other places that you need to go to on the outskirts of the city connected to by portals. This, of course, would only be a part of the City, there would be plenty of dead ends and alleys where FM authors could conveniently extend and add to it via portals that take the player to other districts in the City. Thus, the City would remain mysterious and unknown to a large degree (something I very much agree with maintaining), with only the well-known locations from Thief modeled. The rest of the City being vague and undefined, a place with limitless adventure and where new locales are always waiting to be explored.

[Vadrosaul]

The problem I see with having several designers contribute a block to a large City level design is how chopped up the end product would be, even with comparable skillsets from the makers. Either you offer a large array of assets and flexibility inherent for the City's design, leading to a hodgepodge of mismatched architecture and structural cohesiveness, OR you restrict what can be used to design each persons block, leading to something that may look and feel too shallow & unoriginal.

 

Perhaps a qualified lead designer or two who get the final say, and can rearrange or discard unworthy portions would be best to create a fresh AND flowing completed City.

[jdude]

It would have to be planned out firstly on paper and divided up before hand. There would also have to be one person who's entire job was to polish/detail/light. A large amount of rough concept art would be needed in order to preserver vis portals and the team members would have to be able to take criticism very well I think it is entirely possible, but I don't know if it's worth doing

[sparhawk]

Jdude, one thing you might try is to make a testmap with your city by simply duplicating it a few times in a single mapfile and connect it with streets. This shouldn't take to long and it might give an idea how such a big map would behave.

[Spitter]

I don't think the different styles of the level designers matter - in fact because their architecture has a different 'feel', it could be used as an advantage to create some natural chaos into the city, which always struck me as a place where often radically different and non-uniform architecture can be found. A melting pot so to say.

 

Of course the fact that I think the entire idea of an absolutely huge city map is futile at best and that I don't really like large maps anyway is a whole another thing. I didn't even like the hub area in TDS very much, although not because it was big (because it wasn't) but because the individual levels were too small (and the loading times outrageous).

[New Horizon]

But there are other cases, like NH, where I could imagine such a view having just the opposite effect and making the scene just look pedestrian, just another neighborhood (e.g., full-on, daylight shot). It just depends on how well the author does it ... could be hit or miss IMO.

 

I was referring to people having the need to physically 'map' and 'plan' the city, so that there is no mystery left to it. Giving every single street a name, location...etc. For me, it's good enough to know that there are x number of districts and that the particular mission could reside in any one of them. The type of micro-mapping that appeals to some, just makes the place far too familiar. I think seeing a window view of some buildings stretching off into the distance is great.

[STiFU]

The most amazing thing would be to map out a small-/medium-sized city which contains several missions. The player would work as a freelancer and get the missions by overhearing conversations, reading notes or just entering a certain building. Just like in a RPG or in the game "The Coup".

 

For example, you're currently visiting a museum and see a crown which would be worth a big bag of money. So you get the objective "Find a way to enter the museum at night", which would lead to more objectives while you proceed. A dreamworld for every thief...

 

"Find a way to blow-up the bankvault" ; "Meet XY to acquire information on how to enter the secret tunnels of YZ"

 

I know, what I am describing here is basically a mixture of Oblivion and Thief, but it would be simply awsome in my oppinion. When I played Oblivion (as a thief of course), I always planed a coup at daytime, how to rob this and that at night. It was actually kinda fun, but the stealth elements of Oblivion were way too wonky and the movement was not ninja-like enough...

 

(It was also really cool sometimes that you planned your coup and then at night, while performing it, you notice that you were just hunting a mockup (e.g. valuable items at the Warrior's guilds). Hehe, I laughed my ass off, when I experienced this the first time...) << Sorry for offtopic post!

Edited June 19, 2007 by STiFU

[jdude]

I think it's little things like that which make the Thief series fun Despite everyone not really liking T3, I liked how in the city every once and a while people would be talking about something somewhat important, for instance the guy who is pretending to be you in that house, I think in stone market plaza. The feeling that someone larger is going on around you is what, imo, makes the thief universe feel big. In the previous Thieves there were rarely parts of missions where there is nothing happening, or nothing hinting towards something else happening. For instance, there were usually notes contributing to the plot strewn about, people doing something which in regular life would seem important, or an environmental important scene, such as a drunk guard or two people fighting. I think these little things make thief entertaining

 

@ Sparhawk: I will try that It will probably take forever to compile though