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Something for the Ladies! *<;o)


Maximius
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this is a little project Ive been working on, they could do with a lot more detail but I wanted to get some early feedback. Ignore the crappy wall/floor textures plz, I got tired of trying to scale them properly with the surface editor.

 

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/4268/ma...umrange1rc5.jpg

 

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/6504/hi...uptable1wq3.jpg

 

Note the bubbles in the soapdish! I tried to make a towel but it looks too boxy.

Edited by Maximius
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Interesting stuff. I'm curious about how small the models are--they *seem* quite small, but that could just be the effect of the renderer.

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First, it's looking good.

 

Second, are each one of those vials/lids on that tray individual objects, or is it more like a set piece, like it's all attached to the tray and you just plop the whole thing down as is?

 

Sounds to me like Springheel is curious about some of those tiny looking vials and lids ... which look like they could get completely dwarfed in a scene if they were just used by themselves, as an author might want to if they were presented as individual objects.

 

Or put another way, some of those vials on that tray look a little too small (in that screenshot, anyway) to be useful individually, although that size seems to good as a set piece, as you have them.

 

But then you have the issue that authors might not appreciate as much objects that can only really be useful as part of a set-piece. They might appreciate the flexibility of using those vials as individual objects, so they don't feel hemmed in with what those objects are good for. Also there's the idea that pre-fab set pieces are very often the kind of objects in modding that start looking overused and worn-out the fastest, as most mods will stick to stock material, as we all know from seeing certain objects in Thief looking overused. At the very least, authors might like to be able to rearrange the vials so they're not in the same order every time.

So then you might want to make them as individual pieces, and a little bigger so author's could have a little more flexibility in using those objects in fresh ways.

 

Then it occurs to me you might have a prefab-esque set-piece, or smaller pieces to be used as part of a set piece, using those smaller vials (which still admittedly looks good), and bigger individual versions of them if an author wanted to use them individually for whatever reason. They might be more useful that way.

 

Anyway, I'm just thinking aloud. The point is, some of those vials and lids look pretty darn small to be useful individually, but packaging it as a set piece (prefab or otherwise) has its own issues. Just something to think about. It all looks good.

Edited by demagogue

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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First, it's looking good.

way.

 

Anyway, I'm just thinking aloud. The point is, some of those vials and lids look pretty darn small to be useful individually, but packaging it as a set piece (prefab or otherwise) has its own issues. Just something to think about. It all looks good.

 

Thanks Dem, actually they are all separate pieces, I guess I could glue them together into a prefab but I dont know how just yet. Should be easy. Good points about the "shelf life" of the models. It would not be too hard to make a variety of makeup sets and hair brushes (or anything else) , some minor alterations of shape and textures, its learning to do the first ones that sucks.

 

I think those little things would be great for indoor areas to add life to counters ect ect. A lot of the time I feel like there isn't enough things to place onto tables.

 

Thats kind of what I was heading for, minor items that add a human touch. Im thinking of kitchen items next, frying pans, knives, bowls and such. I may start making a variety of the simpler items as I go, if you make one clay pot its pretty easy to morph it and recolor it into another.

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Lookin good, we do need stuff like that.

 

A few crits, I realize they aren't done so this is actually a good time to mention some of this stuff.

I agree, size wise some of those things seem a tad small. Even if it's a relaistic size it might get lost in game being so tiny. Even rings tend to be larger than life so they can easily be seen.

(of course if they aare for an AI to wear...)

Sorry if this stuff is known and or obvious to you.

 

I would stay away from making too many one piece objects. Authors did like stuff combined in Dromed for the main reason there is a limit to how many objects can be on screen at once (125 I think). Seperate that try would be 20 pieces, together it is one. Also, physics in Dromed suck, we had squares and spheres. So that tray would be a one piece non-movable object.

Dark Radiant however can handle as far as I know and unlimited # of objects per scene. So why have the same tray in every room? Also, the physics are great, so they player could blow the tray up with a fire arrow and all the pieces would fly (if seperate) and would all bounce ect correctly. In Dromed they wouldn't work as well.

 

There are certain objects that can be combined and make sense. I made a carrot and will probably make a 'buch' of 3 or so. if they are tied together a player could pick them up and throw them as one piece. The tray however would look odd if it landed upside down and all bottles are still attached the same way.

 

If you do want to make a one piece though, just export all of them at once into one file.

-----------------

Figure out the normal maps BEFORE you make textures and export. Tons of detail can be added to a simple obj this way. But easier to do it the first time.

 

Some of the little jars and stuff might be too high poly for such small items. One of those little ones probably shouldn't be more than 100 polys, maybe less. The bigger items there I'd say about 250 (comb and mirror, bowls too)

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

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Just to be clear, I agree that it's probably better to keep them as individual pieces, not a one-piece. Although I guess it couldn't hurt to test it out and see how it looks? But even then, I'd keep the pieces separate for other uses on top of that, making a one-piece mostly redundant anyway. (Also, I don't know how the object hierarchy works for Dark Radient, but there is a way to associate them as a family of related objects, right?)

 

My main concern, as I already said and Schwaa's alterego repeated, is just making sure they aren't so small as individual pieces that they'll get lost in the game.

 

But then again, as jdude mentioned, little trinkets like this really make the world more immersive and I myself have sized stuff down a little in dromed for just this purpose.

 

There don't *have* to be absolute rules ... in the end it's about what looks good and performs well in-game, and there's nothing stopping little stuff from really bringing a room alive. I sometimes get annoyed when rooms in Thief look a little too "prefab", even apart from the shelf-life idea. Some objects just look like they were objects made for a game, although very often for good reason (poly counts or gameplay reasons, etc). The obvious dearth of tiny trinkets might actually have been part of that. I guess the point here is it's really a judgment call with maybe some trade-offs on different levels (aesthetics, performance, etc)... pros and cons looking at it from different ways. Just take a good look at all of it in-game, walking around like a player might, and ask yourself does this really work best for this object?

Edited by demagogue

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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Lookin good, we do need stuff like that.

 

Sorry if this stuff is known and or obvious to you.

 

Little is known to me to be honest, thanks for your comments. A lot of this stuff is small, I wanted it to look delicate, but it could be resized easily of course.

 

I would stay away from making too many one piece objects. Authors did like stuff combined in Dromed for the main reason there is a limit to how many objects can be on screen at once.....

There are certain objects that can be combined and make sense. I made a carrot and will probably make a 'buch' of 3 or so. if they are tied together a player could pick them up and throw them as one piece. The tray however would look odd if it landed upside down and all bottles are still attached the same way.

 

If you do want to make a one piece though, just export all of them at once into one file.

 

Ill stick with individual pieces then, in fact maybe Ill start organizing "mix and match" sets, so a mapper can quickly assemble a variety of pieces into a novel scene.

-----------------

 

Figure out the normal maps BEFORE you make textures and export. Tons of detail can be added to a simple obj this way. But easier to do it the first time.

 

Some of the little jars and stuff might be too high poly for such small items. One of those little ones probably shouldn't be more than 100 polys, maybe less. The bigger items there I'd say about 250 (comb and mirror, bowls too)

 

Thats right, I did not optimize these in terms of polys, Ill have to take care of that.

 

Off the subject, but do you know how to install F Prime Worley into LW? I have the file on my HD but the guy who sent it to me couldnt remember which folder it goes into.

 

There don't *have* to be absolute rules ... in the end it's about what looks good and performs well in-game, and there's nothing stopping little stuff from really bringing a room alive. I sometimes get annoyed when rooms in Thief look a little too "prefab", even apart from the shelf-life idea. Some objects just look like they were objects made for a game, although very often for good reason (poly counts or gameplay reasons, etc). The obvious dearth of tiny trinkets might actually have been part of that. I guess the point here is it's really a judgment call with maybe some trade-offs on different levels (aesthetics, performance, etc)... pros and cons looking at it from different ways. Just take a good look at all of it in-game, walking around like a player might, and ask yourself does this really work best for this object?

 

Im hoping to find a happy middle ground somewhere between those different issues. Its been pointed out to me in the past that sometimes too much realism is actually less realistic, because it makes somethings look so good that others look bad and the dissonance is jarring. So Im hoping that the simplicity of these incidental objects combined with some variety will turn the trick. I think that just a few items on a bathroom table or on a dresser can add a lot. And consider this, is it always so bad that items are not immediately noticeable? If I've been in a room twice and the second time I noticed more detail, that I had missed before, could it not serve to actually increase realism? Just a point for consideration.

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You could have a prefab tray perhaps? With the models set up on the tray, prefabs are small I think, like tiny maps.

 

Thats right I think but these guys are pointing out that prefabs have drawbacks too. It seems best to go with individual items. If there is a variety, and with simple stuff it should not be too hard to produce, you could quickly assemble a relatively original scene. Enough to help immerse you in the story or setting.

 

In fact, other than time and effort Im not aware of a reason why this level of work couldn't be done to order. I know thats a bold statement for a total frikking noob to modeling but its true. All those perfume bottles could be altered in a moment, all those makeup jars, it would be simple. A specialized design or scheme could be incorporated pretty much at whim. A mapper could ask for the same brush/comb set done in ivory or wood or whatever and it would take a few seconds of reassigning textures. Add a bit of variety to the brush/comb base set and you have quite a bit of diversity available, and so on.

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I mean a mapping prefab if you didn't get me. Which means that the models are individual, you just insert a copy and pasted DarkRadiant map into the map you're working on.

So then you'd have individual models, and flexibility, but for the lazy person you could import this tray.

 

The prefab tray would be lots of models, so the physics would work as normal. It's just a way of storing positioning.

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I mean a mapping prefab if you didn't get me. Which means that the models are individual, you just insert a copy and pasted DarkRadiant map into the map you're working on.

So then you'd have individual models, and flexibility, but for the lazy person you could import this tray.

 

The prefab tray would be lots of models, so the physics would work as normal. It's just a way of storing positioning.

 

 

I think I understand you better now, you copy and paste a mini-map of the objects into the larger map? So the prefab tray would not be a solid object but a pre-arranged set of individual objects that you could select from? Thats an interesting idea, it seems that it would be possible to assemble a library of related objects, lets say perfume bottles, all associated with a set of trays and accompanying objects.

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Sounds like the way that multibrushes work in Dromed, right?

That does sound interesting, in that you could set up all sorts of stock object combinations good for using in rooms, houses, inns, pubs, etc, quick but good-looking filler, esp good for side-rooms that are peripheral to the game, you just want to stock without spending too much thought ... Or for that matter, good for quickly putting together entire buildings and maybe even collections of buildings, like off in the distance. And then you can always tweak it to taste after you've placed it. That is a good idea. Anyway, it doesn't take anything away from letting a builder do what he wants with the objects ... just a gratuitous but potentially nice convenience in some situations.

Edited by demagogue

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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Sounds like the way that multibrushes work in Dromed, right?

That does sound interesting, in that you could set up all sorts of stock object combinations good for using in rooms, houses, inns, pubs, etc, quick but good-looking filler, esp good for side-rooms that are peripheral to the game, you just want to stock without spending too much thought ... Or for that matter, good for quickly putting together entire buildings and maybe even collections of buildings, like off in the distance. And then you can always tweak it to taste after you've placed it. That is a good idea. Anyway, it doesn't take anything away from letting a builder do what he wants with the objects ... just a gratuitous but potentially nice convenience in some situations.

 

 

It's also great for things that are a pain to set up manually, like doors.

 

If five beginner modelers could be assembled, we could agree to create these sets and they would add up pretty quickly. Say we all decide to make punch bowl sets, something I started last night. So I make my "archetype", then make five to ten variations on it. It took me an hour to make the bowl and most of the ladle, a cup that can be cloned six times will be for tonight. Now, tomorrow I can tweak it and make three different versions, probably in 1/2 hour, a few more the next night, lets say for a total of six. Just different textures and shapes, a few minutes with the modeler and its done.

 

With my colleagues, we would have a set of 30 to chose from in a week, actually much less if necessary. Then, the next week, its dining ware, then silverware, soon you have a pile of dining stuff. Then its kitchen stuff, then bedroom stuff. The reason to work on the same stuff is so that if problems crop up, all the noobs are roughly on the same project and can benefit instantly from advice from the more skilled and each others input. Plus all the numerical and aesthetic standards would be in accordance, with one person pointing out things to another to keep everyone moving in the same direction. I'd be happy to get a IM prog and help a noob to get started. After that we are both fucked.

 

I have some time and sanity finally. Im getting paid leave from work so I can breathe for the first time in about nine months instead worrying about becoming homeless. It would be easier for me to stay on this schedule but its not really that onerous, cause after the first model is made its all tweaking. If anyone is interested in working on sets of items please PM me and we'll get going. If you can contribute one hour a night, and less on some nights cause once you get going some stuff is really easy to reproduce, you could help build up this repository of objects.

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@Maximus,

Not to disuade you but I would focus more on a few quailty objects. Especially working on mapping of them.

Generic slapped on textures work OK sometimes. An example would be the vases, they have 5 textures 3 of don't really excite me at all. They look pretty generic, just quickly made color variations.

 

I'd much rather see someone add a nicvely done model once a week than 40 poorly done ones a day ya know?

The power of Dark Radiant is we can do so much with diffuse, specular and normals that can make stuff look really sweet. Plus we can use higher polys so we can release this and have people really blown away by everything or have them go "uh, that's ugly, that's the best they can do?"

 

We could pile up tons of generic stuff, but if it hasn't been uv mapped correctly to begin with we might as well start over on it when we go to improve it.

 

Now, I'm guilty of this somewhat too. I have uploaded stuff that isn't quite finished or needs a little tweak here and there, but I'm trying to at least get it 80% passable first just in case I never get around to finishing it (hopefully that won't happen). Also sometimes it just needs to get in everyones hands before final version so it can be critiqued for awhile and have time for second opinions to surface.

 

---

I'd like to see you finalize a few of those bottles, ect... with textures and a reasonable polycount. Size them according to a similar existing object and let us see them in game with lighting ect...

The maps can change them drastically and there are always weird rendering issues and whatnot that show up in game. We have already had to fix/redo a few models due to these things.

You also need to understand collision models and shadow boxes before getting too far ahead.

 

I'm really only saying this from experience. I've been doing T2 stuff along time, when I started doing Darkmod stuff it took at least a month of pretty solid work just to tweak myself into the darkmod way of modelling.

I'm more than willing to help out with any of these problems you may run into.

 

Then I think after you have gone through the whole process a few times and understand it fairly well, that would be a good time to help someone else learn it.

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

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Baddcog it sounds like if wrote out a few pages of guidelines and tips that it could be pretty helpful. I've been considering trying to make a few models but I really don't have any idea where to begin!

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OK, I could do that. I was considering some model tuts at some point. Might as well get what I know out there for anyone who can use it.

 

Mostly it will probably be Dark Radiant specific.

 

We got a bit up on the Wiki, I guess what would be nice is one modelling page with a good cross section of links and some filler info.

 

Are there any specifics that you'd want to see?

 

something like this is what I have in mind:

 

-------------

Modelling for Dark Radiant:

 

Polycounts (recommendations)

Smoothing and sharp edges

texture maps (diffuse, specular, normals)

uv mapping (there are program specific tuts on this, not sure I want to do too much 3d prog specific stuff, most of the stuff I have at http://thiefmissions.com/lpg is still relevant)

material files (brief exp., links most likely)

Animating

Shadow meshes

Collision meshes

ASE, LWO, Md5 files

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

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A lot of these issues are found on the wiki's modeling page, but we could always use extra information.

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@Maximus,

Not to disuade you but I would focus more on a few quailty objects. Especially working on mapping of them.

Generic slapped on textures work OK sometimes. An example would be the vases, they have 5 textures 3 of don't really excite me at all. They look pretty generic, just quickly made color variations.

I'm really only saying this from experience. I've been doing T2 stuff along time, when I started doing Darkmod stuff it took at least a month of pretty solid work just to tweak myself into the darkmod way of modelling.

I'm more than willing to help out with any of these problems you may run into.

 

Then I think after you have gone through the whole process a few times and understand it fairly well, that would be a good time to help someone else learn it.

 

 

Thanks for putting these things into perspective Badcog, its easy to get a bit overwrought when you have finally got a few things made and you are feeling feisty. I know these items are not game ready, I just wanted to show them off and get some feedback on them at this point.

 

I got a reality check last night with this punch bowl ladle, the poly on the back by where the handle leaves the bowl claims it has more than four sides and will only triple, at an odd angle, which looks crappy when I smooth it. I can't get the damned thing to look right. Its always amazing how I can move along at a relatively decent clip and then some simple thing tangles up for a whole night or more.

 

I have done a little normalmapping work with Gildoran before, I understand the basic ideas I think. But I had not thought that a normal map would be used on something like those perfume bottles honestly, not that they couldn't but I thought normals were for either really simple stuff like making square pipes look round or for really detailed stuff to accentuate fine details. Are most objects normal mapped? Simple things like bottles or cups too? Im sure in some instances, some unique object like a holy chalice or something.

 

Thank you for your offer of assistance, its great how you guys are willing to help noobs along. :wub: I will be pestering you shortly. But I still think that there would be value in the noobs talking amongst themselves, much as students in a classroom benefit from discussing problems in addition to learning from the instructor. And while Wikis and tutorials and such are very helpful, even an uninformed partner is better at helping you solve problems at times. You can't ask a Wiki or a tutorial a question, you can only get the information it presents. Sometimes thats not whats happening in LightWave and you are totally stymied because the tutorial says its going to do X but it did Y, or nothing happened, or funny black polygons appeared.

Edited by Maximius
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@ Maximus, well, we probably have a slightly different perspective on newbs helping each other. When I started modelling I didn't know anyone personally who was doing anything, and it seemed like anyone online who helped new tons more than I did. I did have a roomie at the time that did a tiny little bit, but mostly he was just stoked to see what I was doing and watch my progress.

But I do understand that it could be a help and if you've got people around it helps just to feed off of each other if nothing else. That in itself can get alot done.

---------

For that weird poly problem, hard to tell without a pic, but it sounds like you need to turn an edge. I'm not sure how that's accomplished in Lightwave but I'm sure someone here does, or there is a tut somewhere.

Another way would be to delete those two polys and recreate them so the edge between is how you want it.

A rough example here

|\| = bad alignment on edge angle, doesn't allow the polys to arch the correct way around a shape.

|/| = good alignment. This edge has been 'turned'

 

I hope that's what you mean, post a pic if not though, well get that ladel game ready.

----------

Normal maps- everything looks better with them for sure. They just add shadows and hilights for polys that aren't really there. Thus making a simple model look complex.

 

You can reuse existing normal maps to to avoid bloating the mod, or combine several jars into on tex.

You could use the goblet tex on a bottle, or just use the goblet normals with a different diffuse.

 

Some of this is too hard to type out and be understandable without pics.

 

Maybe if you've got something like that ladel that you want to get a complete run through I can help you out and show you some possiblities along the way, then the next obj you could mess around with on your own until you hit a prob.

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

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@ Maximus, well, we probably have a slightly different perspective on newbs helping each other. When I started modelling I didn't know anyone personally who was doing anything, and it seemed like anyone online who helped new tons more than I did. I did have a roomie at the time that did a tiny little bit, but mostly he was just stoked to see what I was doing and watch my progress.

But I do understand that it could be a help and if you've got people around it helps just to feed off of each other if nothing else. That in itself can get alot done.

 

There definitely seems to be an information gap between the skilled and unskilled when it comes to amateur modeling. Sometimes I have questions that are so basic, so simple, that its nearly impossible to figure out even with the help of the experienced. I could not figure out how to send objects from the modeler to the layout in LW for like nearly a month, I was missing one tiny step which the people assisting me probably didn't even bother to ask because it was so elementary. Also, I am an educator, so I value the classroom dynamic and the "synergy" that develops between students. I think it could be valuable here, with a crowd that is obviously bubbling with creative juices.

 

For that weird poly problem, hard to tell without a pic, but it sounds like you need to turn an edge. I'm not sure how that's accomplished in Lightwave but I'm sure someone here does, or there is a tut somewhere.

Another way would be to delete those two polys and recreate them so the edge between is how you want it.

A rough example here

|\| = bad alignment on edge angle, doesn't allow the polys to arch the correct way around a shape.

|/| = good alignment. This edge has been 'turned'

 

I hope that's what you mean, post a pic if not though, well get that ladel game ready.

 

I will look into that, I usually just remake the object to get them out, but it would save time learning to how to correct it I think.

 

Normal maps- everything looks better with them for sure. They just add shadows and hilights for polys that aren't really there. Thus making a simple model look complex.

 

You can reuse existing normal maps to to avoid bloating the mod, or combine several jars into on tex.

You could use the goblet tex on a bottle, or just use the goblet normals with a different diffuse.

 

Some of this is too hard to type out and be understandable without pics.

 

Maybe if you've got something like that ladel that you want to get a complete run through I can help you out and show you some possiblities along the way, then the next obj you could mess around with on your own until you hit a prob.

 

Thats grand, again you guys consistently rock. I will probably just remake the whole thing and get it right the first time, but I still have some questions especially about joining the cups handles into the bowls after I extrude them. Ill post some pics here later. Then I have to figure out about drawing maps for the bowl, Ill have to review my notes from before. I have a few ideas about how I would like to texture it.

 

One point about normal maps that Baddcog forgot to mention: all materials in Doom 3 must have a normal map--if it doesn't, D3 will generate a flat normal map for it. The only reason not to use a normal map for an object is for space considerations.

 

Thats interesting, I did not know that and thought that normals were useful but not the standard.

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