mainmenu art

[Springheel]

It's relatively easy to take in-game video, so I'm hoping more mappers will make intro videos.

 

Ideally I wanted to have a new game menu with a "more info" button that would access and display a readme file so players could get info on the game before they even selected it. Don't know if that will be feasible--the design of the new game menu will be in flux for a while, I imagine.

[joebarnin]

Question about the New Game menu. Would the player ever be selecting the mission to play? It sounds like we're leaning towards a DM version of GarrettLoader (or something similar). Users would pick the mod, and GL would copy the .pk4, and delete other add-on .pk4 files (to prevent file collisions). So, does there even need to be a New Game menu? When the player hits New Game, the map that is loaded is not choosable. If the mod has just one map, then that's the map to play. If the mod is a campaign, then the map to play is the first of the campaign. Perhaps each .pk4 should contain a starting mission file, which contains the name of the first map in the mod (or the only mission in the mod, in the case of a single mission mod).

 

So there is no mission choice for the player. New Game goes straight to the Difficulty screen.

 

Now, we (DM developers, mappers, testers, designers, etc) need some way to load an arbitrary map. Maybe, if there is no starting mission file, that's when the New Game menu shows up, supplying a list of all maps in the map directory. This would really be seen only internally.

[Springheel]

So, does there even need to be a New Game menu? When the player hits New Game, the map that is loaded is not choosable.

 

We're planning on shipping the mod with some "official" maps, even if they're just training maps for the new features. So there will be some maps residing in the map files rather than pk4s...couldn't the New Game menu be used to select them?

[Ishtvan]

We should be consistent with how we treat the maps. IMO the "official" maps should use whatever FM-loading system we want to use for all other FMs that will come after them. Otherwise what's the point in programming a new game menu just for a set of some maps that won't ever change? Also, more than one of our mappers might choose to override something (e.g., make thier own main menu graphics or mission start sound or something), and those files would collide if the official maps were all in the directory at once.

[Fidcal]

Have I misunderstood something here? Since D3 cannot load in another map from another pk4 without closing down then only only pk4 will be placed in the darkmod folder at a time.

We still don't have a way of restarting D3 after loading in a different pk4 for some FM (the default way they provided, reloadEngine, just crashes). So we may still need an external loader to copy in the .pk4 before loading D3. Putting many different FM .pk4's in at the same time wouldn't work if more than one of them wanted to overwrite a file.

Therefore, the DM menu needs only concern itself with 'knowing' the name of the current next map and displaying it. Presumably the Garrettloader type program will launch DM with a parameter to pass the name of the the map(s) within it and that will be displayed.

 

I do not know how D3 handled different levels. Presumably it returned to the menu and displayed the name of the next map? So there must be some means for the DM menu to do the same. Is there a test pk4 with a two or three test maps campaign?

 

If all the above is true then the DM menu will need to display only one name at a time: the next map (normally just the first and only.) Incidentally, it might help if provision is made for a general title plus a level title plus being able to leave that blank if not needed. This can be merged into one title if there is sufficient room left. It would also be nice if an optional banner graphic header might be made available for the general title. Let me clarify with the example of my own T2 FM. Its general title is "The Night Watch" and there are four maps named Infiltration, Elicitation, Re-orientation, Confrontation. To just show say, 'Elicitation' as the name of the game in the game menu does not look so good as...

 

THE NIGHT WATCH (large centred text or even graphic banner heading provided by the mapper)

Elicitation (centred below as a subheading in smaller text or possibly even another smaller graphic)

 

In T2 I got round it by using "The Night Watch : Elicitation" which I could just squeeze in the field provided.

 

On completion of the last map or at any time the player wants to quit then he/she exits DM and is returned to the Garrettloader program. Mr Potter will have to come up with another name if his program is adapted for DM! Probably TDMloader or something. Or a new custom program written just for TDM.

 

[EDIT] I should add that the maps provided by TDM at launch will not constitute a 'campaign' but each be separate missions each to be selected by the player from the TDMloader. Possibly one might be called 'Trainer' else a mini campaign of three maps: Trainer plus two levels that follow one another.

[Crispy]

I do not know how D3 handled different levels. Presumably it returned to the menu and displayed the name of the next map?

No. You clicked New game (or whatever the button was called) and it dumped you into the first level (after a cutscene). From there on, you never saw the menu again unless you wanted to change some settings, save the game, or quit. Rather, as soon as you ended one level, the next would immediately start to load. You could in theory play through all of Doom 3 from beginning to end without laying eyes on the menu once (except beforehand and afterwards).

 

Most singleplayer shooters work like this. Half-Life, Deus Ex, Prey, the list goes on.

[Fidcal]

So would you choose difficulty for all levels at one go? Also, relating to TDM, how would that affect returing to the menus to the shop for each level for different equipment?

[Crispy]

So would you choose difficulty for all levels at one go?

In Doom 3 you did, yes.

 

Presumably for TDM we need the ability to display some kind of debriefing screen, and then put them through the briefing/difficulty/shop/etc. sequence for the next map. (Unless there is no next map, in which case go back to the main menu.)

[Springheel]

We should be consistent with how we treat the maps. IMO the "official" maps should use whatever FM-loading system we want to use for all other FMs that will come after them.

 

Yeah, I had reservations about that idea even as I was typing it.

 

I still think we'll want the "New Game" option, however. (I'm kind of bummed that we might have to rely on a third-party app to do something as basic as select a map....) Even if it can't be used as a screen to select your mission, it should still be used to launch the mission .

 

Perhaps the actual New Game menu should just send you straight to the briefing of whatever game you've selected.

[sparhawk]

It would look rather ood, if we develop all this stuff, and then you can't even properly select a map and launch without relying on GarrettLoader or some shortcut the user must change everytime.

 

It should be feasible to list all the available maps and then offer them as a list so the user can decide which one he wants to play. Which of course is a problem for campaigns, because there the user shouldn't select randomly.

[Fidcal]

If nobody on the coding team can spare the time to produce a map manager then I might (I'd need to look at a few details) be able to produce something, a standalone executable but at least it could integrate graphically as the Dark Mod launcher. However, I suggest you contact Mr. Potter, kidnap his dog or something, make him a member, ask him to produce a modified simpler version of his Garrettloader (renamed as say TDMlauncher) that would be customised visually and solely for DM. He can still modify Garrettloader to include DM which I think is a good thing as it helps integrate DM with the Thief community. DM would be provided with an independent ready to go interface for those who never even play Thief yet still Thief players can choose to use Garrettloader if they wish. TDMlauncher would be the front end of TDM to the player.

[New Horizon]

Sorry if I'm covering old ground again, but I don't have time at the moment to review all the old map loading discussions.

 

What holds us back from doing our map selections from within the Dark Mod menu? Are there things that we don't have access to in the SDK?

 

From my limited knowledge, it would be adequate to have a window pop up where the player can navigate to where the pk4's are stored. From here we could do it two ways, if possible.

 

1. Select the pk4 directly and click ok, this would take us to the next screen and also copy the pk4 to the darkmod folder. The map would then be displayed and the player could select it and click 'play map', or some such thing.

 

....or

 

2. Select the folder where the pk4's are stored and click 'ok'. This reads the contents of the pk4's and gives the player a list of maps. Select the map from the list and click 'load map'. This could copy the correct pk4 into the darkmod folder and start the map.

 

This has probably already been covered, it would just suck to have to use a front end though. Doom 3 has an interface for selecting mods from a list, so hopefully it's possible to tinker with this so it can be used to load maps as well.

[greebo]

However, I suggest you contact Mr. Potter, kidnap his dog or something, make him a member, ask him to produce a modified simpler version of his Garrettloader (renamed as say TDMlauncher) that would be customised visually and solely for DM.

I hope I do not sound like an asshole, but I don't feel comfortable with the thought of Potterr producing a loader for The Dark Mod. Given the amount of crashes people are experiencing with GL and Poterr's lack of presence and support on the TTLG forums for more than a few months are not really strong pro arguments in my book. Also, GarretLoader is probably one of the ugliest applications ever produced.

 

I vote for doing this on our own, if it turns out that we can't handle the process from within the game.

[sparhawk]

I'm pretty sure that we can do this from within the game. And if we need a third party program, just to launch the maps, then I sure don't understand why we are bothering with the menu at all.

[joebarnin]

1. Select the pk4 directly and click ok, this would take us to the next screen and also copy the pk4 to the darkmod folder. The map would then be displayed and the player could select it and click 'play map', or some such thing.

 

....or

 

2. Select the folder where the pk4's are stored and click 'ok'. This reads the contents of the pk4's and gives the player a list of maps. Select the map from the list and click 'load map'. This could copy the correct pk4 into the darkmod folder and start the map.

I like #1. If a .pk4 contains multiple maps (a campaign), the player shouldn't be able to pick the map to start with.

 

I thought there was a problem with DLLs loading, so that if a .pk4 contained a DLL, then once the engine started it was too late to copy .pk4 files into the darkmod folder, because the DLL wouldn't get loaded. Or did I misunderstand? If that's not an issue, we don't need a loader and all of this can be done from the menus.

[New Horizon]

Number 1 would still display all the maps in the 'selected' pk4, really no way around that. For a campaign though, I'm not sure how we can control that really. The player should naturally want to start at the beginning though.

[greebo]

There is a rudimentary mechanism for multiplayer map cycles in Doom 3. It basically consists of parsing a .cfg file for the desired map order. Could be re-used for campaigns, I'll have to look again to be able to tell more though.

[Fidcal]

... GarretLoader is probably one of the ugliest applications ever produced.

LOL, maybe I was hasty now you come to mention it! I was looking for a quick fix. I only used it briefly and that was a long time ago.

 

If DLLs in pk4s are the only problem how often are they likely? If everything else is perfect and DLLs are one in a hundred FMs then maybe there is a case for saying the mapper or player must put them in separately. I'd hate the ideal solution of a completely independent mod handling everything being compromised just for the odd DLL once in a year or so.

[sparhawk]

Reading the mapfiles is not really a big problem. At worst, we can require mappers to deliver a configureation file, that tells the name of the mapfile, the name which should displayed and wether it is a campaign and how much should be selectable. That would be pretty trivial IMO.

[Ishtvan]

From my limited knowledge, it would be adequate to have a window pop up where the player can navigate to where the pk4's are stored. From here we could do it two ways, if possible.

 

1. Select the pk4 directly and click ok, this would take us to the next screen and also copy the pk4 to the darkmod folder. The map would then be displayed and the player could select it and click 'play map', or some such thing.

That's all possible, copying in the .pk4, etc, but the problem is the D3 filesystem is only initialized once when you start D3. That is when the .pk4's are all read in, and if there's stuff in a .pk4 that overwrites other stuff, that is when those files are used instead of the ones they're overwriting. If you just copy in a .pk4, the stuff within the .pk4 won't be loaded into the filesystem (they would the next time you ran D3).

 

There is a console command that is supposed to be used for this purpose, called reloadEngine. Ideally, you select your FM and copy it in from within D3, and call reloadEngine to basically restart D3 from within D3. What happens in reality is that the game crashes whenever you call reloadEngine. It doesn't work. I even tried it in vanilla D3 and it still crashed.

 

However, there is something that does work: Loading a mod from the D3 menu. This must do something similar to reloadEngine, and it works. Whatever it does doesn't seem to be in the SDK, but maybe we can source hook something to see what it's doing?

[Crispy]

However, there is something that does work: Loading a mod from the D3 menu. This must do something similar to reloadEngine, and it works. Whatever it does doesn't seem to be in the SDK, but maybe we can source hook something to see what it's doing?

That's a good point. If the worst comes to the worst we could perhaps "mod switch" back to vanilla D3 (or, better, a different mod which just includes a TDM loading screen instead of D3's).

 

Is the mod-choosing GUI in vanilla D3 part of mainmenu.gui?

[New Horizon]

That's a good point. If the worst comes to the worst we could perhaps "mod switch" back to vanilla D3 (or, better, a different mod which just includes a TDM loading screen instead of D3's).

 

Like a 'map-loader' mod that can somehow be used to snap thing around and get everything loading from scratch again.

[joebarnin]

Is the mod-choosing GUI in vanilla D3 part of mainmenu.gui?

It is not. I just dropped it in on my version of mainmenu.gui, changed the font to carleton. It doesn't look too bad, except when you select a row, then you get an ugly green highlight. Someone told me how to change the highlight color but I can find the info now. I'll look into it.

 

Using this technique, we could have a Mods button on the first screen, for swapping mod directories.

[Ishtvan]

When you choose a mod, it must restart with the keyword fs_game <mod name>, right? How would we do that and still preserve the DLL in the main mod? Or can we copy in the FM .pk4 within the mod and then restart our own mod from our mod using the same load mod GUI command? We might not even need a menu, just use that load mod GUI command as a way to restart after copying in the .pk4 that actually works.

[sparhawk]

That's all possible, copying in the .pk4, etc, but the problem is the D3 filesystem is only initialized once when you start D3. That is when the .pk4's are all read in, and if there's stuff in a .pk4 that overwrites other stuff, that is when those files are used instead of the ones they're overwriting. If you just copy in a .pk4, the stuff within the .pk4 won't be loaded into the filesystem (they would the next time you ran D3).

 

But that's not really a problem. It is enough if you copy the PK4s beforehand into the game directory, run Doom, and then our selector kicks in.

 

However, there is something that does work: Loading a mod from the D3 menu. This must do something similar to reloadEngine, and it works. Whatever it does doesn't seem to be in the SDK, but maybe we can source hook something to see what it's doing?

 

With sourcehook you can't really look into this. It just can extend the functionality a bit. I doubt that it would help in this case.