The Dark Mod Status

[Springheel]

Real-time shadows? Ragdolls? Guards that notice when their comrade is missing? None of which were done particularly well in TDS, but their absence in any modern stealth game would be pretty glaring.

[Vadrosaul]

Not done particularily well? Isn't doing them well the whole point in including them? Those items and their basic inclusion in a 2004 sequel based on two previous titles is nothing more than than keeping the expected status quo for a basic upgrade. I mean you guys took an engine released a little later that same year and have already crafted superior ragdolling, shadows & alert states, and your a fan mod team.

 

Maybe it's just me, but I failed to see anything from TDS that enhanced the Thief experience. Ion Storm copied the Thief formula, gave it a hefty dose of dumbing down, then slapped on standard tech for the time (shadows, ragdolls) and did nothing to enhance them beyond their basic inclusion.

[Maximius]

Maybe it's just me, but I failed to see anything from TDS that enhanced the Thief experience. Ion Storm copied the Thief formula, gave it a hefty dose of dumbing down, then slapped on standard tech for the time (shadows, ragdolls) and did nothing to enhance them beyond their basic inclusion.

 

It continues to provide a fountain of examples of what not to do. You have to give it that.

[Crispy]

Not meaning to interrupt all the TDS-hatin' going down here, but I don't think it's fair to blame Ion Storm. They were trying their best under the circumstances. It's unfortunate that aspects of the game didn't turn out as well as planned, but such is life. And I have to say, I did enjoy it. The games I finish are few and far between, and TDS was one of them. The fact that it managed to hold my interest for that long is in itself a tick of approval.

 

OK, so a lot of the new features weren't particularly earth-shattering. So what? Just updating Thief to a modern engine is a worthy goal in itself. Heck, why else are we making a Thief-inspired toolkit with a modern engine? (Well, okay, it's not the only reason - having an open source stealth game for people to play with and innovate upon is another big drawcard, and there are other reasons too. Still, it is one of the big reasons.)

[Komag]

- Mantling in TDS was far superior to T1/2 or any other game.

- There were more conversations in TDS, and they were well done.

- Climbing gloves are cool to many people

- Real-time shadows were well done and ahead of it's time in early 2004, not standard (but this led to performance problems and comprimises)

- Body awareness, though not new, was well done overall (except for the lurchy camera movement)

[Vadrosaul]

I don't agree with many of those points. The mantling suffered from the poor third-person feeling of drunken lurching movement, as did the body awareness. Climbing gloves were a moot point when the vertical gamespace was so limited. Conversations is a matter of story, the responsibility of other creative forces.

 

Even though they included these 'enhancements', they felt like they could have easily been implemented better. Poor choice of engine, or poor job in modifying engine?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not hatin' on TDS, but rather I fail to see where it brings any fresh or well executed NEW elements to the Thief series. Many games cobble together the best ideas from other classic games and execute them in a thrilling game, but we should not be throwing the innovation stamp where it does not belong, especially with a sequel which should have tried its damndest to what essentially you guys are doing with the Dark Mod in your spare time.

 

@Crispy: Remember one of the reasons the Dark Mod came to fruition was due to ill sentiment towards TDS

Edited September 7, 2007 by Vadrosaul

[Crispy]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not hatin' on TDS, but rather I fail to see where it brings any fresh or well executed NEW elements to the Thief series. Many games cobble together the best ideas from other classic games and execute them in a thrilling game, but we should not be throwing the innovation stamp where it does not belong, especially with a sequel which should have tried its damndest to what essentially you guys are doing with the Dark Mod in your spare time.

You're the one who mentioned innovation in the first place.

 

@Crispy: Remember one of the reasons the Dark Mod came to fruition was due to ill sentiment towards TDS

Maybe, but one of the other reasons was because people wanted to make fan missions in TDS, but couldn't (at the time - the editor didn't get released until later). Which suggests they quite liked TDS, because who would want to make missions for a game they didn't like?

 

Your move.

[Vadrosaul]

You're the one who mentioned innovation in the first place.

Maybe, but one of the other reasons was because people wanted to make fan missions in TDS, but couldn't (at the time - the editor didn't get released until later). Which suggests they quite liked TDS, because who would want to make missions for a game they didn't like?

 

Your move.

 

Jdude mentioned good elements from all Thief games. I simply scratched my head trying to figure out any that came from TDS that were not shoddily implemented or borrowed from the predecessors. Basically "where's the innovation?". Granted Thief 2 didn't have it much either

 

Until the Dark Mod is released, I can't see FM's being created in the TDS editor as anything more than hardcore fans making do with what they got: Use either the old Dark Engine, or use the weaksauce modified Unreal Engine 2. Thus the salvation that the Dark Mod brings us in due time

Edited September 7, 2007 by Vadrosaul

[Crispy]

Jdude mentioned good elements from all Thief games. I simply scratched my head trying to figure out any that came from TDS that were not shoddily implemented or borrowed from the predecessors.

You're reading way too much into a throwaway, blanket comment.

 

Until the Dark Mod is released, I can't see FM's being created in the TDS editor as anything more than hardcore fans making do with what they got: Use either the old Dark Engine, or use the weaksauce modified Unreal Engine 2. Thus the salvation that the Dark Mod brings us in due time

No argument there!

[OrbWeaver]

Jdude mentioned good elements from all Thief games. I simply scratched my head trying to figure out any that came from TDS that were not shoddily implemented or borrowed from the predecessors. Basically "where's the innovation?". Granted Thief 2 didn't have it much either

 

I don't see the confusion. It was suggested that the Dark Mod incorporates the best elements from all 3 Thief games; the Dark Mod includes dynamic shadows, realistic physics, ragdolls, improved mantling, normal maps, loading zones (optional) -- all of which were in Thief 3 but not the previous Thief games; ergo, the Dark Mod is incorporating the best elements from all 3 Thief games. QED.

 

The fact that the particular implementation of a gameplay element in Thief 3 may be poor or non-innovative, does not mean that the element is not worth using altogether in TDM.

[ZylonBane]

I don't see the confusion. It was suggested that the Dark Mod incorporates the best elements from all 3 Thief games; the Dark Mod includes dynamic shadows, realistic physics, ragdolls, improved mantling, normal maps, loading zones (optional) -- all of which were in Thief 3 but not the previous Thief games; ergo, the Dark Mod is incorporating the best elements from all 3 Thief games. QED.

Considering that every one of those features except mantling are standard components of the Doom 3 engine, claiming them as elements incorporated from TDS is more than a little disingenuous.

[sparhawk]

Considering that every one of those features except mantling are standard components of the Doom 3 engine, claiming them as elements incorporated from TDS is more than a little disingenuous.

 

Of course we could have selected the 3771 cewl HL2 engine as our mod base, which would have NOT some of these features. So it seems by selecting the D3 engine, we did indeed incorporate these feature, even if we may not have implemented them ourselves. Q.E.D.

[Springheel]

Wow, if you go frame by frame you can actually see the moment this thread started to go down in flames....

[jdude]

I didn't mean to spark a huge debate TDS did make better urban environments, interactivity, better scripted effects, graphics and so on and so forth as seen in previous Thiefs. As someone else also said it provides a canvas of what not to do and it has also managed to spark many creative ideas I bet, even if we aren't using TDS ideas directly.

[bob_arctor]

- Mantling in TDS was far superior to T1/2 or any other game.

- There were more conversations in TDS, and they were well done.

- Climbing gloves are cool to many people

- Real-time shadows were well done and ahead of it's time in early 2004, not standard (but this led to performance problems and comprimises)

- Body awareness, though not new, was well done overall (except for the lurchy camera movement)

 

Plus the AI is pretty good if you up the sensitivity. For example they go to alert if they notice loot gone then a buddy missing. Unfortunately the default AI was too blind and deaf, play with Minimalist Mod and they notice a lot, and talk a lot about what they've seen. It's very good.

 

Shame the modded Flesh engine was rubbish, and the art direction boring.

[nobody]

What about lock picking in TDS? I thought that was pretty darn good and innovative too. Even the “as shipped” version was pretty good. The Minimalist Project made it excellent by removing the HUD (thank you NH).

Honestly, where TDS failed was in capturing the imagination of its own community. After all, it is, and has been all along, the community around the games that has made the Thief series such a crazy success. No matter how good the originals may or may not have been, were it not for the community, they would be long gone and forgotten by now. So while we can complain about all the bugs and flaws, be they large or small, but it is really the sum of the whole, the delivery of the game to the wrong audience that killed TDS. I don’t think anyone would argue that DROMED or either of the original thief games were bug-free, or user friendly, but they captured the imagination of our community and got us fired up so we were able to work past the aggravations to make good missions and improve the game. TDS failed to do that, partly because we felt betrayed over the game being “dumbed down” for console use, and partly because it just didn’t breathe fresh life into the game like we expected it to do, for so many reasons. There’s no way I would play TDS without the Minimalist Project and I thought some of the side quests were just a little too “Nintendo” (run around the city shooting special stones with moss arrows, or shoot a combination of elemental arrows through the magical portal. . . Puhleeease!) I did enjoy the game once I got used to it.

[demagogue]

To be honest, even T2 didn't capture the imagination as well as T1.

 

If you think, mission for mission, T2 was so busy trying to self-consciously create a bunch of novel sneaking experiences -- robbing a bank, following the courier, overhear a conversation, clear a path for Basso, case then rob a joint, etc, it was so busy being "technically more fun; more to do" -- that it didn't have the same purity and soul as the original, IMO ... which was more raw but more inspired, more magical. Not sure if you'll ever be able to conjure up that again.

 

I honestly have yet to play TDS until I buy a new computer ... but since my expectations have been so lowered, I think I just might enjoy it for what it is. I won't even try to pretend it's supposed to be competing with the previous iterations.

 

I'm also thinking that for my first run, I should go ahead and install things like the minimalist project and the upgraded textures and the difficulty mod, etc (whatever works together). So my first run through is the best the fans can get it and my first impression will be better for it.

Edited September 10, 2007 by demagogue

[jdude]

To be perfectly honest, I enjoyed Thief 3 just as much as Thief 2, because the mechanists ruined Thief 2 for me. However I absolutely loved Thief 1 to bits

[SplaTtzZ]

I lean towards the other way in this debate; I preffered Thief 2 over Thief 1, and didn't really like TDS for many of the problems it had, already mentioned above.

 

I think Thief 1 opted for a much more spooky kind of experience; there was a large proliferation of undead for example. That in and of itself does not make it a poor game; but I personally preffred the more conventional and iconic heists of Thief 2. Life of the Party for instance was one of my all time favourites; it was so open-ended and you could get easily sidetracked, not too mention it looked great and I found it enjoyable to scramble around the rooftops of the city. I dunno for some reason i felt like more of a Thief in T2 than i did T1;in T1 i felt like more like Lara Croft.

 

I think TDS deserves some credit though; i mean who didn't like the Shaleford Cradle map? The idea of having the zombies run was pretty freaky the first time it happened to me; and those thrice-damned giant statues. I will always remember one of those puppet guys getting back up after being knocked down and charging down the hallway towards me. Yeah TDS definitely had its flaws; i was disappointed that the City was no-where near open ended enough; but its still not that bad a game considering some of the other stuff being developed.

 

My only fervent hope is that another Equilibrium FM will be made using Dark Mod's engine.

[Arcturus]

I also felt that I played Tomb Raider when I was searching for all those long lost artifacts. Zombies, undead and burrics are ok but I don't like missions in which they are my only opponents. I prefer to steal from men rather than ghosts.

Thief 2 is my favourite. It has the best maps - large and in many different styles. I loved the architecture variety, I even liked art deco. TDS (edit) has nice yet monotonous graphics. It was almost black and white which was boring to me (even if more realistic when action takes place at night).

[New Horizon]

TDM has nice yet monotonous graphics.

 

You mean TDS.

[Arcturus]

You mean TDS.

 

TDH -The Deathly Hallows I would never say that about the Dark Mod's graphics

[ShaZe]

The fact that you had to actually go to the shops and buy / sell your stuff was a really nice things. I also loved the fact that you can travel / steal between the mission. There was definitely innovation that enchanced the game. And don't blame the game because you actually played it in Third person. I personally find that TDS was a great game. I fail to see where they really failed.

 

Hmmm and those damn zombies, I thinks that's the only things I hated from the game, but it was funny as well. I mean, I was not even able to do more than 2 minutes in a level like shalebridge cradle or the little ghost ship.

 

Otherwise, I thinks the main reason why some people don't love the game is :

 

- They doesn't like the style / feel of the game. They prefer to charge at the enemy or shoots evrything with a gun.

 

- They doesn't like the "fantasy side" ( Mechanical things / Electricity )

 

- They were fanboy of 1 of the previous game in the series and they were thinking to have that game with higher graphics..

 

Anyway, TDS was fine, don't blame it.

[Springheel]

The fact that you had to actually go to the shops and buy / sell your stuff was a really nice things.

 

You mean except for the fact that around every corner there was someone buying and selling illegal goods? There were more fences and blackmarket merchants than there were regular tradespeople. Which I guess makes sense, since you could retire off the sale of one or two gas arrows.

 

I fail to see where they really failed.

 

You either haven't done much reading in thief-related forums, or you are blessed with remarkably low expectations. I enjoyed TDS, but I did it in spite of its numerous failings.

[New Horizon]

Otherwise, I thinks the main reason why some people don't love the game is :

 

- They doesn't like the style / feel of the game. They prefer to charge at the enemy or shoots evrything with a gun.

 

Quite the contrary, the reason many didn't like it is because the developers actually designed the game to force the player out of the shadows and have more confrontations. This was stated by the head guy at Ion Storm at the time, Warren Spector. He felt that the other games were boring and he wanted more action. That's one of the reasons why I disliked TDS. The way TDS was designed, it doesn't encourage ghosting and stealth to the same degree as the previous two games.

 

 

- They doesn't like the "fantasy side" ( Mechanical things / Electricity )

 

I really have to point out that TDS makes far less use of the Steampunk/Fantasy side of the Thief series. It's a far more watered down, generic, fantasy type setting. The first two games had a beautiful marriage of mechanics and magic creating electricity in a medieval age. TDS...not so much, it was just a straight out fantasy, the steampunk flavor got lost somewhere. I think the art directors just didn't understand it or something.

 

 

- They were fanboy of 1 of the previous game in the series and they were thinking to have that game with higher graphics..

 

Welcome to The Dark Mod! You've described pretty much everyone here! HA HA.

 

I expected the game mechanics to 'evolve' in a third chapter of the series, but I didn't expect the artistic style, atmosphere and really the mood of the game to change to a point where it became a parody of itself. TDS seems to have its tongue planted firmly in cheek, and pretty much treats everything with a light handed touch. I expected the darker, grittier mood of the previous games to continue.

 

Oh well, that's what Dark Mod is about.