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Rope Physics Videos


Scope

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I'd like to start off by Introducing myself to the forums, I've followed the progress of the Dark Mod on and off for around a year now, and originally hail from over on the BCG forums which is where I first heard mention of TDM. When I heard oDDity had a hand in the modelling, I decided to take a peek as I was blown away by his high poly thief render... Anyway, I wont waffle on about that, lets just say I was highly impressed with what I saw, and hotly anticipate beta release... (Roll on christmas 2008!).

 

Now to the matter at hand...

 

I am amazed by the rope physics update on the main page, this is what has excited me into making a first post, I have NEVER seen such realistic rope physics in any game and had no idea the D3 engine was capable of such things.

The way the rope drapes over edges is spot on, And I see so many possibilities being able to actually pull down smaller wooden crates which are lighter than the player, especially for completing objectives that may involve reaching Items which could be Perched on or INSIDE a crate by pulling down and smashing it open :)

 

Also sounds good as a hazard of some sorts, for instance, a warehouse full of highly stacked crates which must be traversed... certain crates could be strategically placed which have a lighter value than the player, causing them to dislodge when pulled causing a landslide of crates on the player...

 

Well done guys, I think you just created a whole new mini-gameplay mechanic for the thief experience :) keep up the great work.

-Scope
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Thanks. :) That's one area we're very proud of...the physics and the ability to grab and rotate objects will no doubt inspire all KINDS of new traps, puzzles, and other emergent gameplay. :) I can even imagine a new kind of playstyle, where players try to set up traps to take out AI in creative ways.

 

(I say *we're* proud, but the majority of the physics work was done by Ishtvan and greebo...they've had to make a LOT of changes to the basic D3 physics).

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I am amazed by the rope physics update on the main page, this is what has excited me into making a first post, I have NEVER seen such realistic rope physics in any game and had no idea the D3 engine was capable of such things.

It's not :D That behaviour is all thanks to ... yep, Ishtvan and greebo.

 

Before they got at it, objects stuck to other objects would be completly ignored in physics. Eg, an arrow fired into a box would move with the box if the box moved, but that's the extent of it. The arrow would move straight through everything and could not be touched. Physics were only applied to the box.

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Good to hear (and see) that weight had been given to liftable objects, and not just some arbitrary stop point for lifting, nor unbelievable anchors for rope arrows.

 

It’s invariably a treat whenever you guys provide videos or screenshots to show us fans the work in progress :D

 

PS. Love the creaking sound on the bowstring pullback ;)

Loose BOWELS are the first sign of THE CHOLERA MORBUS!
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Yes, that falling crate is just the sort of realism I love - 'annoying' for the in-game character you play but not the player if you see what I mean because it feels true to life.

 

The update and Springheel also mentioned in passing "...physics and ability to grab and rotate objects" but that does not do it justice. A grabbed object like a crate is not just a symbol icon like in T2 but you actually hold the crate in front of you and it interacts with the world. You can hold it nearer to you or further so you can lean forward and stretch out and place it on a ledge you would not normally reach. Rotate it in any direction and place it with the precision of a brain surgeon. Then mantle a stack of crates far more realistically and smoothly (and usefully) than T2 ever could.

 

And surely the new xxxxxxx deserves a mention?... ;)

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Holding objects in TDM seems to work much like Deus Ex, if you've ever played that :)

 

If not, then you might have played HL2 - well HL2 is a step backwards from Deus Ex with the object holding, but similar. It's just that in HL2, the object is told to be forced through the wall when you push it in, and it starts vibrating and shaking violently (with loud noises to boot) which demonstrates quite clearly a lack of effort (or intelligence) put into the programming.

 

Deus Ex (like TDM) handles the situation much more gracefully, with the object stopping where it collided with something, then falling out of your hands once it gets pulled away from you after a certain distance.

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And surely the new xxxxxxx deserves a mention?... ;)

 

I didn't know you guys were going to have x's in the tool set! B)

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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I'm amazed how crappy all the so-called advanced physics systems in today's games are. Developers crow about incorporating Havok or some such then when we play the game we're confronted with a world filled with balsa wood objects, objects that shake and rattle as if possessed if you get too close to them, objects that have a royal fit if you press them against a wall, dead bodies that continue to flop around and shiver long after they're supposed to be dead. I can't wait to experience what you guys have done with D3.

 

And BTW I'm continually impressed by how generous you guys are with updates, keeping the community informed, answering questions. You people are the least attitudy group of gamers I've ever seen (or should that be attitudinous?)

Edited by Ratty
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It's not :D That behaviour is all thanks to ... yep, Ishtvan and greebo.

 

Before they got at it, objects stuck to other objects would be completly ignored in physics. Eg, an arrow fired into a box would move with the box if the box moved, but that's the extent of it. The arrow would move straight through everything and could not be touched. Physics were only applied to the box.

 

Then Greebo and Ishtvan definately deserve all the praise they get, I had no idea it was even possible to modify the code relating to physics in most engines, Outstanding you guys, very well done.

 

Dragging boxes on the heads of enemies will definately make a fun "game within a game".

-Scope
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I'm amazed how crappy all the so-called advanced physics systems in today's games are.

 

Well, you do have to be careful not to go too far and waste resources with physics. :) Doom 3 went as far as it needed to go with physics, but we wanted to push it a little further.

 

The D3 SDK provides access to the physics code, which I believe was all done by id software.

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If not, then you might have played HL2 - well HL2 is a step backwards from Deus Ex with the object holding, but similar. It's just that in HL2, the object is told to be forced through the wall when you push it in, and it starts vibrating and shaking violently (with loud noises to boot) which demonstrates quite clearly a lack of effort (or intelligence) put into the programming.

We still actually have that problem with Articulated Figure (ragdoll) entities. It's a little harder to test for and fix than with rigid bodies. Suppose you're grabbing an AI's body. You could be grabbing one body part, and pushing it toward a valid area, but if other body parts are constrained to that part and being pushed into contact with a wall, those contact forces tend to build up and cause flopping around. Hopefully we can fix that too.

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So this is kinda a weird question, but is it possible to shoot rope arrows into dead bodies or AI? That could make it so funny... Imagine a clueless guard walking over a bridge and the player shoots and rope arrow at him and tries to climb it, so that the guard falls down... :D But I can see that this would be impossible with AI since the ragdolls are only activated when they are dead. So in the end, it's just a funny thought!! =)

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We still actually have that problem with Articulated Figure (ragdoll) entities. It's a little harder to test for and fix than with rigid bodies. Suppose you're grabbing an AI's body. You could be grabbing one body part, and pushing it toward a valid area, but if other body parts are constrained to that part and being pushed into contact with a wall, those contact forces tend to build up and cause flopping around. Hopefully we can fix that too.

 

I noticed that when the spiders die, their legs flap about for ages before they stop moving. I wonder if this is just a case of adding a large damping force so that energy is absorbed rather than transferred to other parts of the AF (since it's a squishy organic thing anyway).

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We still actually have that problem with Articulated Figure (ragdoll) entities. It's a little harder to test for and fix than with rigid bodies. Suppose you're grabbing an AI's body. You could be grabbing one body part, and pushing it toward a valid area, but if other body parts are constrained to that part and being pushed into contact with a wall, those contact forces tend to build up and cause flopping around. Hopefully we can fix that too.
Heh - Deus Ex didn't even have ragdoll, and I don't think HL2 even let you interact with ragdolls by picking up individual body parts. You guys are on the cutting edge :)
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amazing job!!

 

 

what about Stacked crates?

crates on bottom of stack should be fine since weight of top cratesm right?

and what abgout crates in-between each other in the stack, do they get slowly pulled out depending on player's speed/weight/swinging on the rope?

 

what about hanging on to the rope as the box falls? what if it falls over a rail/ceiling bar, would the player and the box both swing in the air? will it pull the player up?

 

what if the box is on the ground, could an arrow be shot over an edge, held by the player, than pull the box UP?

(Would be great for picking up corpses from the floor, and as it's being dragged up by the player, blood would drip off of it :D ) (liek stifu mentioned)

 

 

Also the frontpage news states:

A lot of other improvements have been made by greebo to rope arrows themselves--they now spawn a rope of variable length depending on the space around the arrow.

 

Isn't that like Dark Messuah??! That's horrible! shooting a rope ina ceiling about you gives ou one foot of rope and shooting the top of the arch a cathedral gives you 100ft of rope :(

shouldnt it somehow adjust it? maybe make a spiral of left over rope if it's REALLY short.

I'm not saying make the rope a specific length, but adding a leftover rope graphic if its short will add immersive realism.

 

 

amazing job!!

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I believe the rope length is based on the space around the rope, not on the player's position; so if you're near the ceiling and fire into the ceiling above a long drop to the floor, the rope will unfold down to the floor rather than arbitrarily stopping in mid-air. And there is a reasonable limit on the rope length. (It can be pretty darn long, but not ridiculously so.) Trust me, it looks a lot better than always spawning the entire rope.

 

The rope is not attached to the player as soon as you fire it, and at the moment you can't influence it except for pushing it (with your body, by running into it) or climbing on it. You can't use the grabber to "pick it up" - this is a conscious choice, since apparently it didn't look so great; the rope is segmented, which looks fine in most cases but dispels the illusion if you can pull the segments around at will. And adding more segments, while doable, makes it computationally expensive (=slow), which is bad. We always have to consider performance limitations. So no, you can't use it to pick up bodies from the floor. That would be kinda odd anyway... in real life the arrow would break. :)

 

All of the above is of course subject to major tweaking; and believe me, whenever we dream up new ways of improving the mod, we do it if we can (always keeping the limitations of our resources in mind and avoiding gratuitous feature creep, since we do want to finish at some point). This is, after all, a labour of love. Just understand that there are limits to what can be reasonably done, despite Ishtvan's and greebo's great work.

 

I'm glad you're excited though. So are we! :)

My games | Public Service Announcement: TDM is not set in the Thief universe. The city in which it takes place is not the City from Thief. The player character is not called Garrett. Any person who contradicts these facts will be subjected to disapproving stares.
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So no, you can't use it to pick up bodies from the floor. That would be kinda odd anyway... in real life the arrow would break. :)

 

That's what makes us Thief fans so offbeat. We suspend disbelief only so far, so that arrows can support the weight of 60 kg. man, but for the rest we apply real world physics :P

 

The woo of the rope arrow needs some thought out rules for the material strength of the shaft. I don't see how a rope arrow cannot, for instance, slowly drag the dead body of a man across the ground, but it can support the players weight climbing up walls & ledges. Though I can understand a programming or time crunch limitation & you guys defaulting to original Thief rules for the item first :)

Loose BOWELS are the first sign of THE CHOLERA MORBUS!
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what about Stacked crates? crates on bottom of stack should be fine since weight of top cratesm right? and what abgout crates in-between each other in the stack, do they get slowly pulled out depending on player's speed/weight/swinging on the rope?

Just tried this on the stacked crates - a single crate or the one on top gets pulled off but the ones under the weight of crates above don't - and after I climbed the rope I could mantle off the rope up over the crates. And remember although the jump key does a mantle where appropriate, there is also a custom mantle key so no risk of jumping off the rope by mistake if mantling is impossible. :)

 

Don't think it was in the video but when I shot one rope it temporarily draped over an earlier rope just slightly to the side. After a second or so it slid off very naturally and swung free. Very convincing.

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I think I recall the team agreeing on the rope arrow shaft having a metallic "core", so that it can withstand the large forces. This way it's also believable that the rope arrow doesn't break when it's attached to a falling crate.

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I'm not saying make the rope a specific length, but adding a leftover rope graphic if its short will add immersive realism.

 

Unfortunately this is not possible, because of the mechanics of the rope arrow. The rope is wound up inside the arrow, and it deplays on impact. There is a small sensor inside it, that detects the impact when the rop hits ground, and when this happens it will switch a lever, that locks a gear which stops the rope from deplyoing. Of course, since the rop arrow is a mechanical device, there is a limited lenght of rope available. It would be pretty unrealistic to have 100ft of ropes on a small arrow, not to talk of the weight of it. :)

 

So if we would rewrite this, we would have to redesign all the mechanics, and rebuild it completly from scractch. Our inventors are already quite busy, and I think they wouldn't like it if we asked them for another solution for an already working design. :)

Gerhard

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That's what makes us Thief fans so offbeat. We suspend disbelief only so far, so that arrows can support the weight of 60 kg. man, but for the rest we apply real world physics :P

 

IMO there is a differnce if an arrow is stuck in some hard stuff like wood, or in some squishy thing like a man. Of course it could always get stuck on a rib cage, but then the rope arrow is not designed to penetrate armor. The inventory told us, that the rope arrow has some hooks that allow it to embed it into wood and have a hard time to get withdrawan, but such an arrow can not penetrate armor anyway. So it could only be used to hit regular people. For a breastplate you would need a special arrow, that doesn't have any hooks and looks more like a nail. Bodkin I think it is called.

Gerhard

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Crispy, what if the objects falls whiel player is hanging on rope? what if that box in video #2 falls AWAY from the player while the player is ON the rope, would the player be PULLED UP?

 

Unfortunately this is not possible, because of the mechanics of the rope arrow. The rope is wound up inside the arrow, and it deplays on impact. There is a small sensor inside it, that detects the impact when the rop hits ground, and when this happens it will switch a lever, that locks a gear which stops the rope from deplyoing. Of course, since the rop arrow is a mechanical device, there is a limited lenght of rope available. It would be pretty unrealistic to have 100ft of ropes on a small arrow, not to talk of the weight of it.

 

I don't want the arrow to unwind 100 ft of rope when shot into a ceiling 5 ft above,

What I'd liek is for the rope to be around 10ft long no 1 ft long, maybe jus tot touch the ground a little bit and kurl up - If you'd playdark messiah, you'ld know exactly what i mean - tiny stubs of rope whenever u missed a shot are really annoying.

 

 

ANother question

How do NPCs react to hanging ropes, or arrow stuck in objects in general??

Edited by kohan69
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