Tels' textures

[PinkDot]

Usually the diffuse does not contain light and shadow, as this would look wrong under different lights

Diffuse texture, as opposed to Color texture should contain some subtle diffuse light shadowing. Otherwise it looks flat, especially in ambient light only (no direct light). It shouldn't be too strong though, so direct light computed in game still would be stronger.

 

Looking at your texture - you're on the good way, I think. But if you want to be realistic, that shadow should follow the shape on shingles - now it's still flat I know - it means a bit more work to do...

[Springheel]

Diffuse texture, as opposed to Color texture

 

What is a 'color texture'?

[Tels]

Diffuse texture, as opposed to Color texture should contain some subtle diffuse light shadowing. Otherwise it looks flat, especially in ambient light only (no direct light). It shouldn't be too strong though, so direct light computed in game still would be stronger.

 

I have no idea what you mean by "color" texture, as the diffusemap contains basically only the color information.

 

You are right, tho, that it should contain a few (very light and subtle) differences, otherwise regular brickwalls etc look too clean and uniform.

 

Looking at your texture - you're on the good way, I think. But if you want to be realistic, that shadow should follow the shape on shingles - now it's still flat I know - it means a bit more work to do...

 

Oh yeah you are right... but right now I feel I don't want to much around with it anymore

[Arcturus]

Yes, I did

 

I am using XCF (Gimp native format) to store layers and layer alpha masks, so you can combine and recombine them in many ways:

 

I judge from the pictures that you converted diffusemap into normalmap but for the shingles fake 3d effect practically doesn't exist. The line between tiles where one is on top of another should be more distinct. In shingles_red texture there's a shadow caused by a normalmap in this place so diffusemap doesn't need to have that line very clear.

[Tels]

I judge from the pictures that you converted diffusemap into normalmap but for the shingles fake 3d effect practically doesn't exist. The line between tiles where one is on top of another should be more distinct. In shingles_red texture there's a shadow caused by a normalmap in this place so diffusemap doesn't need to have that line very clear.

 

Yes, if you read my post, I explained that I had really troubles to bring out the bars - these ate up much of the difference the normalmap and there wasn't much left for the shingles.

[Arcturus]

Diffuse texture, as opposed to Color texture should contain some subtle diffuse light shadowing. Otherwise it looks flat, especially in ambient light only (no direct light). It shouldn't be too strong though, so direct light computed in game still would be stronger.

 

Exactly. In City_area ambient light comes directly from above so when I tested shingles_red there they looked a bit flat. More 3d effect is when light comes from left or right side of the texture and that's why I should add more shadows to the diffusemap some day (I already added that white stripes).

[Arcturus]

Yes, if you read my post, I explained that I had really troubles to bring out the bars - these ate up much of the difference the normalmap and there wasn't much left for the shingles.

 

And that's why there should be clear outlines in the diffusemap. Don't get me wrong I think it looks ok. But could better I think.

[Tels]

And that's why there should be clear outlines in the diffusemap. Don't get me wrong I think it looks ok. But could better I think.

 

The "problem" with the shingles is, that I redid them and fumbled it, the "outlines" you speak of should be actually hidden under the strips, but they don't line up.

 

But heh, as I said, go and improve it

[PinkDot]

What is a 'color texture'?

As the name says - just pure colour (color?), without diffuse light nor specular. Not really good for game engines nowadays yet, as they compute only direct light, so it will look very flat in shadows.

As bumps and highlights are computed in real time, diffuse texture for engines such as doomengine should contain colour plus some diffuse light (such as skylight or global illumination).

 

hope it's clear but it doesn't harm to illustrate it:

colour texture:

 

diffuse texture:

[Springheel]

That's interesting, because it contradicts most of what I've been told about making textures for D3 (though instinctively I've been doing more what you suggest). Doesn't that make the texture look 'wrong' if the light is from certain angles though?

[PinkDot]

That's interesting, because it contradicts most of what I've been told about making textures for D3 (though instinctively I've been doing more what you suggest). Doesn't that make the texture look 'wrong' if the light is from certain angles though?

Well, you shouldn't paint on the texture strong lights and shadows - only smooth shadowing in concave parts. Basically - in game art you have to put into texture everything that is not computed in realtime. In old engines, textures contained lights and shadows and even highlights or some reflections. Now normal maps, specular maps and reflection shaders take care of it. But as game engines don't compute global illumination yet, it has to be painted. But it's all about feeling the right balance - not too strong and not too faint.

F.e. You wouldn't get folds on a shirt or curtain, cause they're only light and shadow, unless direct light cast onto it revealing bumps thanks to normal map. Wouldn't it look strange if completely even surface appeared to be strongly waved after lighting it up?

[Tels]

Well, you shouldn't paint on the texture strong lights and shadows - only smooth shadowing in concave parts. Basically - in game art you have to put into texture everything that is not computed in realtime. In old engines, textures contained lights and shadows and even highlights or some reflections. Now normal maps, specular maps and reflection shaders take care of it. But as game engines don't compute global illumination yet, it has to be painted. But it's all about feeling the right balance - not too strong and not too faint.

F.e. You wouldn't get folds on a shirt or curtain, cause they're only light and shadow, unless direct light cast onto it revealing bumps thanks to normal map. Wouldn't it look strange if completely even surface appeared to be strongly waved after lighting it up?

 

And wouldn't it be strange if a bright light shines directly onto the cloth, and all the wrinkles still appear?

[PinkDot]

And wouldn't it be strange if a bright light shines directly onto the cloth, and all the wrinkles still appear?

maybe it would, but less strange

[Gildoran]

I would argue that making a diffuse map which includes ambient occlusion is good, but not anything that assumes directional light. In other words, making cracks, pits, dents, folds etc darker doesn't interfere with D3's lighting, but including directional highlights/shading does.

[Tels]

When visiting my parents and looking at one of our houses I noticed a nice tiled mosaic on the floor and shot some photos from it, here is one:

 

 

Then I cleaned it up in Gimp and made a texture out of it - actually three:

 

* center

* trim

* corner piece

 

This allows you to tile them together for different sizes. As a test, I also changed the center piece's red parts to blue - and it was easier than I thought.

 

So before do more work adding bumpmaps, specular, and a t-piece, please tell me what you think of this:

 

[Tels]

Here is a close-up, please note this is WIP!

 

[New Horizon]

Very nice. I like the different colors.

[Baddcog]

nice

[sparhawk]

Looks really good.

[Tels]

Looks really good.

 

Ok, so I do the rest

 

One question, tho: Please tell me where the new material should go. Maybe it would be good to make a new texture folder under "stone/flat" for mosaics?

 

And what about the name? Currently I have "tile_mosaic_flowers_red_central" and "tile_mosaic_flowers_blue_central" (and "tile_mosaic_flowers_blue_corner" etc.)

[greebo]

@Tels: I noticed you uploaded a new folder "mosaic" under stone/flat. This will cause trouble with the DDS textures, as the maximum folder depth for DDS textures is exceeded. Doom3 won't load the DDS files and spit out an error.

 

What we can do you is to define the mosaic/ folder only in the shader name, and equip the filenames with a mosaic_ prefix, like we did for the shaders in stone/flat/smooth (see tdm_stone_flat_smooth.mtr).

[Tels]

@Tels: I noticed you uploaded a new folder "mosaic" under stone/flat. This will cause trouble with the DDS textures, as the maximum folder depth for DDS textures is exceeded. Doom3 won't load the DDS files and spit out an error.

 

Erm, I didn't actually want to upload that folder. Sorry :/

 

What we can do you is to define the mosaic/ folder only in the shader name, and equip the filenames with a mosaic_ prefix, like we did for the shaders in stone/flat/smooth (see tdm_stone_flat_smooth.mtr).

 

I am not quite sure I understand. Do you mean that DR will display a virtual folder for some materials (in a hardcoded way)?

 

The reason I wanted to put my materials into a subfolder is because they are soo many now - I got three colors and 6 different tiles for each of them - and this started to make the list rather long.

 

I'll delete the folder, but what should I do now with the material names exactly?

 

Edit: Question:

 

Is there a maximum path length or folder depth for DDS names? Because:

 

A	textures/darkmod/stone/cobblestones/cobblestones03_dark_wet_s.tga
A	textures/darkmod/stone/flat/mosaic

 

my new folder is still shorter than "cobblestones" If it is the path depth, could we make it "textures/darkmod/stone/mosaic" instead?

[Springheel]

I got three colors and 6 different tiles for each of them

 

Are the different colours separate textures? Did you try getting the same effect just using different keywords in the material?

 

I don't think a separate "mosaic" folder is necessary...we already have a folder for ceramic and marble tiles--the fact that they have a mosaic on them is something the name can indicate.

[greebo]

I am not quite sure I understand. Do you mean that DR will display a virtual folder for some materials (in a hardcoded way)?

No. I was referring to the Media Browser which displays the shaders in a tree view according to the path contained in the shadername.

 

E.g. textures/darkmod/stone/flat/mosaic/myshader. The actual image files (referred by bumpmap, diffusemap, etc.) can still reside in a different folder. Look at tdm_stone_flat_smooth.mtr to see an example.

 

This can be used to logically sort shaders and having the files still obeying the DDS path depth limit at the same time (see below).,

 

Is there a maximum path length or folder depth for DDS names?

There is a folder depth limit, as I wrote in the post above, not a path length limit. The maximum folder depth for DDS files is 5 levels (e.g. dds/textures/darkmod/stone/flat/). Everything beyond that depth is spitting out errors ("Couldn't load image" or something)..

 

It is a hard limit contained within the closed source of the engine, and I don't have the slightest clue why iD went for such a limit. Somebody probably deserves receiving a punch on the back of their heads for putting that in, unless it's an actual bug which was not discovered before release.

[Tels]

Are the different colours separate textures? Did you try getting the same effect just using different keywords in the material?

 

No I haven't so far - it might be possible because currently the raw source image files are XCF (Gimp's own layered format) and the color is just done via a layer with a mask. But first I need to finish the bumpmaps and equalize the color tone of the tiles before I can work on the color-via-shader.

 

I don't think a separate "mosaic" folder is necessary...we already have a folder for ceramic and marble tiles--the fact that they have a mosaic on them is something the name can indicate.

 

Well, the "flat" folder already contains quite a lot of materials and since I didn't want to double their number just for my pattern, well I already wrote I thought the folder was good, or I wouldn't have done it. (nevermind the accidental commit of an empty folder tho)

 

@greebo: I see, I'll do it that way then.