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The recipe for a good mission?


Macsen

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I thought we could share our ideas about what makes a good thieving mission, and then perhaps create a guide for the wiki for budding mission designers out of this thread. Here are some of mine - you're free to disagree.

 

Multiple ways to enter a building/complete a mission - As well as adding to the replay factor it also gives the world a sense of freedom and makes it feel more like a real place than a linear game.

 

Story - A mission whould have a story, or a lot of little interwoven stories, even if the player isn't directly involved in it. You should be able to follow the lives of some characters through conversations and so on.

 

A sense of discovery - The Indiana Jones effect of coming across a lost city, or even just finding that old trap door that Lord xxxx mentioned in his diary.

 

A Living City - The city in which the game takes place is a living, breathing monster. You should be able to hear it groan and hum. It should feel like it's ancient even if you just created it five minutes ago.

 

Anticipation - You should always give an inkling to the player of what his deistination or next task is, so that he has something to work towards.

 

A twist - The mission should always end up slighty different from what the player though it was going to be when he started. A good example is the Sword mission from TDP.

 

Originality - There's always a place for a builder church or guarded mansion, but if you can create an entirely new faction or setting all the better. Again you can start them off thinking it's a standard mission, then chance tack.

 

Keep it human - Zombies and bug beasts have their place but try to break it up with some proper human interaction once in a while. See TDP for how not to do it.

 

Plenty of Sneaking - The Dark Mod at its core is a tight sneaking game and that's where the game gets a lot of it's tension too. Getting past the guards should be tough. Just running away from burricks and zombies through endless caverns is not sneaking.

 

Rewarding Loot - Every task completed should come with a quick reward for what you have done. In the old FPS games it was health & ammo, in the Dark Mod it's probably loot. Don't just throw it around where the player doesn't deserve it.

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I disagree almost entirely.

 

Multiple ways to enter a building/complete a mission - This I agree with.

Plenty of Sneaking - This I agree with.

 

But the other things? No. Let me tell you why :)

 

Story - A mission does not need a story, certainly not of this type. If every mission has one they'll all end up being the same. Having a goal is a different thing.

 

A sense of discovery - No. Sometimes a house should just be a house.

 

A Living City - It doesn't have to take place in a city though! And it could be a city that is asleep. It's going to be at night after all and not everywhere will be open 24 hrs.

 

Anticipation - Arguable.

 

A twist - Most certainly not. What are we? The M. Night Shyamalan of games? "Always" have a twist? What? No. Why? That just gets dull.

 

Originality - ...if you can create an entirely new faction or setting all the better... No, no no. Original yes, but new factions? Do we really want 30 different factions? I don't think so.

 

Keep it human - No, no and again no. How is this original? We should have a range of mission types.

 

Rewarding Loot - Again this is cookie cutter mission making. If I ever get this thing working and do any maps you will most certainly not have "candy" loot put around near mission objectives. It'll be realistically placed.

 

Sorry to put such a downer on your thread Mac but I think what you have suggested will end up with a set of missions that are to similar and actually lacking in originality. You can make a good mission in any way that you want.

I want your brain... to make his heart... beat faster.

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Hmm, I agree more than SE, but not completely.

 

Maybe your list is not things that are necessary to a good mission, but things that improve a mission. For instance, I would surmise that a good story isn't required for a good mission, but surely a good story wouldn't usually hurt a mission and would almost always improve it.

 

So, is there anything on your list that I think would actually hurt a mission? I think a twist could end up hurting things, throwing the player for a too-far loop maybe. Always including some humans might restrict some otherwise very cool non-human missions. Too much originality may just get weird.

 

But overall, I think most of the list are things that help a mission. And I personally LOVE a sense of discovery, very much a high point for me.

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I always found it quite good in HL2 that you got extra health and ammo, if you looked around and got out of your way to explore the maps (not that there was really much of it anyway). However I don't really like it when there is loot placed in strange places just to reward the player. How does a golden ring get up there in the rafters? Well, maybe somebody stole stuff and while trying to get away lost it. Could work. But if you constantly find loot in strange places, then it will not work anymore. It feels more like that the player is led around on his nose.

On the other hand, if a house is made like a regular house and you snoop around and find stuff in it, which is realistically, then it is already rewarding. If done well, it can give you a sense as if you were snooping around in a foreign house for real. Something that probably many would like to do, even if just for the fun and curiosity of it.

If a place is made into a "perfect" hiding hole, it feels more game. A good map looks realistic in such a way that you get the impression that it could work as a real place. As a kid I liked to snoop around in old abandonded factories. These buildings were designed for the work that were done there. There was no need for secret doors or such, but it was still interesting to snoop around there and imagine that you may find something valuable (which we of course never did). :) This is what I mean by making it realistic instead of gamey.

This does, of course, not mean that you should not create fantastic places. But I always question mysef, when I see such stuff in the movies, who would build it that way???

Gerhard

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Sorry to put such a downer on your thread Mac but I think what you have suggested will end up with a set of missions that are to similar and actually lacking in originality. You can make a good mission in any way that you want.

 

Not a downer at all SE, the whole point is that we discuss things and come out with a few solid guidelines. But I'm not sure how suggesting a range of different stories, locations and factions would lead to 'similar' missions. In fact your desire for standard buildings, no stories and facing the same factions over and over would seem to me to be rather more dull. If you ever get the editor working it seems to me that you would be a very unambitious mission designer!

 

Story - A mission does not need a story, certainly not of this type. If every mission has one they'll all end up being the same. Having a goal is a different thing.

How exactly will they all end up being the same, since there are an unlimited amount of stories that could be set in a medieval/steampunk universe? The thing is, pretty much every mission I've ever played does have a story, even if it's just to explain why you're in that setting and why you're stealing what you are. It can be communicated through writing, dialogue, setting, and so on. A mission without a story and just goals, as you're suggesting, would be very dull. Just a matter of 'steal this' - no context, no explanation of why you're there, nothing? I would consider the mission designer to be a lazy one if that were the case. How exatly would it just the same standard thieving goals lead to more originality?

 

A sense of discovery - No. Sometimes a house should just be a house.

OK, but I've broken into a hundred dreary houses in thief FMs and they aren't getting any more interesting. How exactly would this lead to more originality in missions?

 

A Living City - It doesn't have to take place in a city though! And it could be a city that is asleep. It's going to be at night after all and not everywhere will be open 24 hrs.

I think you've completely missed my point here. I didn't mean a city with a lot of living people waling around in it, but one that feels lived-in, ancient and organic. But also, if there's no one around in this city of yours who are you going to sneak past? Of course it doesn't have to take place in the City, but any other location should have the same attributes.

 

Anticipation - Arguable.

I'm keenly anticipating your reasons as to why this is the case?

 

A twist - Most certainly not. What are we? The M. Night Shyamalan of games? "Always" have a twist? What? No. Why? That just gets dull.

Again you misunderstand. A twist doesn't have to be a big twist - it should just be that the mission isn't exactly what the player expected it to be when he started. As I said, the Sword is a good example. There's no big twist, you do end up breaking into a mansion and stealing a sword as you set out to do. The nature of the mansion itself is the twist.

 

Originality - ...if you can create an entirely new faction or setting all the better... No, no no. Original yes, but new factions? Do we really want 30 different factions? I don't think so.

 

At the moment we don't have any new factions, they were all stolen from Thief (a 10 year old game), so a few more wouldn't go amiss. But seriously, who wants to play the same old Pagan ruins/Builder church mission until old age? Not very original.

 

Rewarding Loot - Again this is cookie cutter mission making. If I ever get this thing working and do any maps you will most certainly not have "candy" loot put around near mission objectives. It'll be realistically placed.

 

Sparhawk - I'm not suggesting putting loot in hard to find and unlikely places as a 'reward'. I dislike hidden loot and that's another thing I should have added to the thread. The loot can be in an obvious position on a table right in front of you and still be difficult to get to. It's a sneaking game and the challenge should be getting to the loot in the first place rather than having to scour every part of the map for it.

 

SE - As I said above, I'm not suggesting putting loot around mission objectives. Not sure where you got that from.

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The loot can be in an obvious position on a table right in front of you and still be difficult to get to. It's a sneaking game and the challenge should be getting to the loot in the first place rather than having to scour every part of the map for it.

 

Yes. That's precisely what I meant for a good map. :)

Gerhard

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Something that came up in a discussion about designing dungeons for fantasy roleplaying games and which I also enjoy tremendously in Thief maps: a certain kind of structure to a level involving the common use of interlocked loops or circular routes. There is something magical to me about climbing up to a ledge, going through an apartment in a house into an inner courtyard, and carefully jumping down to a ledge that takes you through a small garden back to your starting point. Constructing levels that conform to these specifics is one of my design goals with Dromed. My favourite example from well known missions is the area in the second half of The Haunted Cathedral, where you have a street patrolled by zombies with ledges on the side and various areas these venues lead to. During your explorations, you can "experience" the same place from multiple perspectives; sometimes from below, sometimes from above. Calendra's Legacy features a similar idea with its city, where you have to retread the same ground under different circumstances. The mission is also clever in that it combines freedom of movement with subtly restricting it - e.g. you can use canals as a convenient escape route, but they channel you to a small number of exit points. If you want to get ahead, you need to navigate on ground.

 

In a more abstract sense, this comes back to reuse of space as proposed by Gaylesaver's short but excellent design tutorial.

 

I also think story is a bit of a red herring; in any case, it is a term often meant too literally and restrictively to a game scenario.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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Multiple ways to enter a building/complete a mission - As well as adding to the replay factor it also gives the world a sense of freedom and makes it feel more like a real place than a linear game.

 

-Agreed. Give the player a map. Let him/her plan her route. Reward intelligent decisions. "Hmm. The map shows the main gate in and a servant's house. I could break an unattended window to enter, but that makes too much noise. I'll go through the servant's house, because the main gate is probably well guarded." Don't tell the player to go through the servant's house. Make options, let The Player choose! Reward going through a more difficult alternative: the player might hear the guards at the main gate talking about security systems, or might steal a key from the guards.

 

Story - A mission whould have a story, or a lot of little interwoven stories, even if the player isn't directly involved in it. You should be able to follow the lives of some characters through conversations and so on.

 

-Agreed. I love to hear/read about the poor butler's bitter hate towards his master, but alas his daughter is in love with the master's son and he cannot but swallow his rage. However, stumbling into terrible secrets over and over and over again in

the same mission takes away the realism. Subplots are to be placed carefully, as most of the people live normal lives, one terrible secret in the main plot is the maximum.

 

A sense of discovery - The Indiana Jones effect of coming across a lost city, or even just finding that old trap door that Lord xxxx mentioned in his diary.

Intelligent searching should -again- be rewarded. If there is slight hints that the builder priest is corrupt, player might locate a hidden treasure in his quarters. But not always.

 

A Living City - The city in which the game takes place is a living, breathing monster. You should be able to hear it groan and hum. It should feel like it's ancient even if you just created it five minutes ago.

 

-Agreed. The City should have history, and the mapper should think about it. A central square or other kind of significant place should have a background. It is not just The Kings Square, but a square that was used for executions by the kings' command sixty seven years ago.

 

Anticipation - You should always give an inkling to the player of what his deistination or next task is, so that he has something to work towards.

-Yes. Give a few hints of things to come. Corrupt the clues, do not give anything outright until the moment is correct.

 

A twist - The mission should always end up slighty different from what the player though it was going to be when he started. A good example is the Sword mission from TDP.

 

-No. Sometimes a break-and-entry mission should be just a break-and-entry mission, with challenging and entertaining guards of course. It's rather boring if the player should always expect the unexpected.

 

Originality - There's always a place for a builder church or guarded mansion, but if you can create an entirely new faction or setting all the better. Again you can start them off thinking it's a standard mission, then chance tack.

 

-I don't know. If so, the author should be very careful and think it through. And no, I would probably be bored if every mission introduces a new bunch of factions. Too much is too much.

 

Keep it human - Zombies and bug beasts have their place but try to break it up with some proper human interaction once in a while. See TDP for how not to do it.

 

-Sometimes mixing zombies with humans is cool. T2 Thieves highway mission's necromancers tower. But not always.

 

Plenty of Sneaking - The Dark Mod at its core is a tight sneaking game and that's where the game gets a lot of it's tension too. Getting past the guards should be tough. Just running away from burricks and zombies through endless caverns is not sneaking.

 

-Agreed.

 

Rewarding Loot - Every task completed should come with a quick reward for what you have done. In the old FPS games it was health & ammo, in the Dark Mod it's probably loot. Don't just throw it around where the player doesn't deserve it.

 

-Loot should be placed realistically. It shouldn't always be behind loads of trouble.

 

 

Most importantly:

Keep the missions diverse.

Give the player options, with consequences.

Reward cunning players.

Do not lead the player by the nose.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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Sotha, I will debate two of your points.

 

-Agreed. The City should have history, and the mapper should think about it. A central square or other kind of significant place should have a background. It is not just The Kings Square, but a square that was used for executions by the kings' command sixty seven years ago.

 

This can be rewarding, but there is a lot to be said for presenting a few unexplained mysteries that make the player's imagination go. A certain level of ambiguity is beneficial for a thiefy game, contributing to the mysterious ambience of a location. Also, suggesting something is a very good way of presenting non-vital information. Unlike traditional shooters, the Thief series and TDM offer a less frantic kind of gameplay, where similar nuances are easier to give to the player - especially with the need to be observant.

This ties nicely into your next idea:

 

-Yes. Give a few hints of things to come. Corrupt the clues, do not give anything outright until the moment is correct.

 

-Loot should be placed realistically. It shouldn't always be behind loads of trouble.

What is realism? In my opinion, it should be avoided in its traditional meaning! Players often expect a wish to have, say, a "realistic" city district where they could "break into every house". But a mission like that would be very boring: most realistic houses aren't too interesting. Realistic mediaeval/Victorian cities or mansions don't let you do all that fun climbing. What we need, instead, is maybe a suggestion of reality, but always filtered through the lens of interesting.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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What is realism? In my opinion, it should be avoided in its traditional meaning! Players often expect a wish to have, say, a "realistic" city district where they could "break into every house". But a mission like that would be very boring: most realistic houses aren't too interesting. Realistic mediaeval/Victorian cities or mansions don't let you do all that fun climbing. What we need, instead, is maybe a suggestion of reality, but always filtered through the lens of interesting.

 

-I definately wouldn't like to be able to break in every house of a map, so we are mostly in agreement.

 

What I mean by realistic loot placement is the following:

-Loot is relatively where it should be expected:

* in a display case in a place where visitors can envy the collection.

* a decorative vase on a table in a corridor.

* coins inside a locked chest.

* expensive wine in a locked wine cellar.

* a pouch of gems hidden in the corrupt guard captain's quarters.

 

-Loot placed unrealistically:

*fabulously expensive diamond in the raggy beggar's home.

*diamond ring inside a barrel sitting on a city street.

*lots of gold in the servant's quarters.

*coins on a table in a general corridor leading nowhere.

*expensive statue placed on a insignificant windowstill.

Unrealistic loot can be made realistic by adding a reason why they are there. Maybe the diamond ring was left in the barrel as a payment for some heinous deed. Player who found a blackmail note describing the deed can find it.

A FM author shouldn't use too much unrealistic loot.

 

I find it rather immersion breaking in -lets say- a shooter game in which I do some exploring and finally reach a small niche in the rooftops, where I locate......

...2 pistol clips! <_<

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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A certain level of ambiguity is beneficial for a thiefy game, contributing to the mysterious ambience of a location.

I agree with this, but to be fair on Sotha he wasn't saying that the player be presented with reams of historical documentation. I think it's more important that the mission designer does the research and constructs the history, and keeps it in mind when designing the area.

 

To take his example: "It is not just The Kings Square, but a square that was used for executions by the kings' command sixty seven years ago." You could have a square called 'The Kings Square', a pub called The King's Head, and a guillotine outside. The player could draw his own conclusions!

 

Realistic mediaeval/Victorian cities or mansions don't let you do all that fun climbing. What we need, instead, is maybe a suggestion of reality, but always filtered through the lens of interesting.

I concur completely with this point. I suggest it be quoted verbatim in the document!

 

Placing loot in areas which reward effort, and realism aren't mutually exclusive. After all, wouldn't loot be kept in well guarded areas? Away from servants, let alone thieves.

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At the moment we don't have any new factions, they were all stolen from Thief (a 10 year old game), so a few more wouldn't go amiss

 

There are some superficial resemblances between the "factions" of TDM and those of Thief, but they're hardly "stolen".

 

Yes, the Builders have a hammer symbol and favour red. But other than that they have more in common with a 'mythic' version of Catholicism during the Inquisitions.

 

The Hermetic Order is a mage guild, but has no more in common with Thief mages than any other setting with wizards.

 

The Inventor's Guild is nothing like the Mechanist cult--the only similarity is that they both design (quite dissimilar-looking) clockwork automatons.

 

The "pagans" of TDM are heavily influenced by historical pagans (and the myths created about them). But beyond the historical influence they have nothing in common with Thief pagans.

 

 

More interesting than just adding new "factions"--the RPG equivelant of creating new character classes in an attempt to inject new life into things--is to be creative with the ones you already have. It's like saying that missions should take place in a new city because it gets boring if you stay in the same place every time.

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There are some superficial resemblances between the "factions" of TDM and those of Thief, but they're hardly "stolen".

:laugh: Come off it, seriously. They have slightly altered names and backstory.

 

Nothing to be ashamed of, just look how much WoW/Warhammer steals from Lord of the Rings. But there's no point denying it.

 

More interesting than just adding new "factions".

Oh so these factions aren't new as you claim then? I thought you just said they were completely original bar some superficial resemblances to thief. ;)

 

It's like saying that missions should take place in a new city because it gets boring if you stay in the same place every time.

Fair enough if someone wants to, as SE pointed out above. But the whole point of the 'city' is that it's nowhere epecific and can be whatever the mission designer wants it to be (hence the ambigious 'the city' name). This is a bit different from being stuck with the same old factions over and over we've been thieving from for the last 10 years. It gets stagnant after a while.

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Come off it, seriously. They have slightly altered names and backstory.

 

I suppose if you want to look at it that way, then Thief "stole" the idea of Keepers from Star Wars. I mean, seriously, an organization that wears dark robes, has "magical" powers and strives to keep the balance? Hell, one of the main characters was trained by a member of the organization at a young age, yet he eventually leaves and then is ultimately responsible for the organization's demise! How the hell did Lucas not sue??

 

This is a bit different from being stuck with the same old factions over and over we've been thieving from for the last 10 years. It gets stagnant after a while.

 

That's exactly the kind of thinking that makes it boring. You don't steal from "factions", you steal from individuals. Most people use factions as an easy stereotype that doesn't require much explaining, like "races" in fantasy games. That's fine, and even appropriate in lots of cases. But stealing from stereotypes gets boring. If you treat factions like real, living organizations of actual people, then they're not boring at all.

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Ok, I'm going to re-dissect your original post so you can understand what I mean.

 

Before you start reading my responses I hope you are aware that the way you have suggested these things is as if you think they should be included in most, if not all, missions (type dependent of course).

 

Multiple ways to enter a building/complete a mission - As well as adding to the replay factor it also gives the world a sense of freedom and makes it feel more like a real place than a linear game.

I totally agree.

 

Story - A mission whould have a story, or a lot of little interwoven stories, even if the player isn't directly involved in it. You should be able to follow the lives of some characters through conversations and so on.No. Missions often have a "story". I'll be using The 7th Crystal as an example here. There is a mission goal (find crystal), a plot (the head of the house has found a secret chamber) AND a story - he and his wife are suffering the aftermath of their daughter's death and it's all very tragic. You glean the plot and the story from notes you find. It's great.

 

Every mission needs a goal or it would be pointless. A plot fleshes out the world so that it seems like you are raiding a real place populated by individual characters and so although not essential really adds to the atmosphere.

 

But the story(ies) that you find about an unfaithful wife, or a secret romance between the princess and the gardener, whilst nice now and then and occasionally very amusing or interesting should not be part of every mission. If they were it would just be unoriginal. There is certainly a place for them, there is no doubt about that, but to suggest that EVERY mission SHOULD have one is over-egging it a bit.

 

A sense of discovery - The Indiana Jones effect of coming across a lost city, or even just finding that old trap door that Lord xxxx mentioned in his diary.

We all love this stuff. I certainly think that they are an important part of missions. But again - suggesting that EVERY mission should have them is suggesting turning them from interesting quirks to run of the mill banalities.

 

A Living City - The city in which the game takes place is a living, breathing monster. You should be able to hear it groan and hum. It should feel like it's ancient even if you just created it five minutes ago.

Ok, I got your point and agree with you.

 

Anticipation - You should always give an inkling to the player of what his deistination or next task is, so that he has something to work towards.

Why? This can sometimes kill a surprise. Useful if used correctly but by no means essential.

 

A twist - The mission should always end up slighty different from what the player though it was going to be when he started. A good example is the Sword mission from TDP.

No. Sometimes yes, but not always! The Sword has a MASSIVE twist. If every mission started one way and ended up being as radical a departure as The Sword it really would end up being the dullest of things. It would be "Oh yawn, look at that booooring twist. Again". Un. Original.

 

Originality - There's always a place for a builder church or guarded mansion, but if you can create an entirely new faction or setting all the better. Again you can start them off thinking it's a standard mission, then chance tack.

I agree with Spring. Use the existing factions to good effect. I'm all for the creation of smaller factions, conflicts and splinter factions, the occasional hinted at extra or encountered faction but people should stay away from new faction overkill.

 

Keep it human - Zombies and bug beasts have their place but try to break it up with some proper human interaction once in a while. See TDP for how not to do it.

Not a chance. People should have the freedom to create missions with whatever AI they want. If you want to send us to a haunted mansion on the edge of town, a catacomb, a haunted cathedral or anything else that's fine with me. And vice versa and all inbetween. Did you ever play The Inverted Manse?

 

Plenty of Sneaking - The Dark Mod at its core is a tight sneaking game and that's where the game gets a lot of it's tension too. Getting past the guards should be tough. Just running away from burricks and zombies through endless caverns is not sneaking.

Ha ha. I agree here.

 

Rewarding Loot - Every task completed should come with a quick reward for what you have done. In the old FPS games it was health & ammo, in the Dark Mod it's probably loot. Don't just throw it around where the player doesn't deserve it.

No. You managed to scale the wall and get across the rooftops and into that window? THAT is your reward - that you're in! Realistically placed loot should be paramount. I'm not against the coins that slipped through the casino floorboard into the basement, or the necklace in the Magpie nest but at least put loot were it will reasonably be.

 

To summarise; I just think your were suggesting overuse of certain elements that would cause lack of variety, freedom, but most important originality. If I break into a mansion I don't want The 7th Crystal's Plot Redux part 23.

 

And IF I ever get this thing working (damn you Vista and your 0.9.4 woes) you most certainly will find these elements in the 2 missions I have fully designed, concepted and plotted - 1 1/2 of which I was working on in T3Ed (I posted screens somewhere at some point) before it really started to become impossible (and I say 1 1/2 because 1 I thought was doable and the other would never have been possible in T3Ed so I was building a much tweaked and scaled back version):

 

Multiple ways to enter a building/complete a mission

Story

A sense of discovery

A partial twist

Originality

Plenty of Sneaking

 

So you can see, I'm not totally against all your ideas - just not ALL the time.

I want your brain... to make his heart... beat faster.

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A Living City - The city in which the game takes place is a living, breathing monster. You should be able to hear it groan and hum. It should feel like it's ancient even if you just created it five minutes ago.

 

Easy to demand, but often tricky to do.

A lot of extra work is needed to built in "citylife", like a little traffic, beggars, commerce, pedestrians, brothels, markets...

It's a lot of stuff you have to build around the actual mission. Much detail is necessary.

 

However, I think a good portion of such atmosphere can be brought in through proper use of sound.

Just listen to this mp3 from TDS - it makes one think there is a living city, just behind the next wall.

 

 

http://208.49.149.120/files/jukebox/thief/...d%20Squares.mp3

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly while bad people will find a way around the laws." - Plato

"When outmatched... cheat."— Batman

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A sense of discovery, rewarding Loot, originality and anticipation I feel are related.

For instance, say you have a house of a burglar or something like that. You look around and read his journals blah blah blah, you find a trap door that he says will lead you to his stash.

 

So far the player has a bit of a sense of discovery, for finding this, and a little anticipation. The problem lies within the reward.

 

You could have it so the player opens up the trap door and finds a little room with some loot in it or some tools / equipment, but really, where is the fun in going into a room, taking stuff then leaving?! There is no fun in that, this is where the reward loot and originality come into play. Instead of a room, have something original, like maybe the burglar created a complex system of tunnels which lead to different work shops, you can explore, maybe he hit an underground oasis when he was digging his tunnel, which he converted into a workshop, maybe the trap door leads to an underground mushroom grow operation :D The thing is, I find it almost more rewarding to be presented with an original and memorable environment than with some basic loot or equipment.

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A quick sidenote on "journals".

 

I mean those books/papers laying openly around and containing highly secret information.

 

Come on. You are in the house of a plotting nobleman or unhonest businessman and there, look, his papers.

Inside all his secret doings listet nicely one after another, describing his crimes, and, of course, the position of that tiny switch to open his secret stash of loot.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to play as Sherlock-Holmes-Ninja, but please !

I have a brain, you know. I want to draw conclusions.

 

Journals are nice to further some story. They are not nice if they are the über-loot.

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly while bad people will find a way around the laws." - Plato

"When outmatched... cheat."— Batman

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I suppose if you want to look at it that way, then Thief "stole" the idea of Keepers from Star Wars.

 

Really Springheel, I deal with politicians all day and I've never met someone with the capacity to flatly deny something so clear and obvious. I was a writer when you were drawing up these faction histories, for god's sake. Every single faction in TDM corresponds with the factions in Thief. It's not just "inspiration" - the whole point of the mod is that people can make thief missions, under a slightly different name (even the title of the mod is a rip off of the title of the first thief game, fer crissakes). And that's what they will do. If I hadn't dealt with you before I would think you're taking the piss.

 

You just argued yourself that we don't need new factions. Implying the ones we have are in fact old. Old thief factions with different names.

 

You don't steal from "factions", you steal from individuals.

If the player can populate his level with new and exciting characters all the better. I just don't want to see the same standard hammerite cathedral/pagan forest/mechanist factory missions I'm so tired of by now. If you're talking about stereotypes, see every single hammerite/builder and pagan that ever populated a thief game, and I don't see why the mission designer should have to confine himself to those boring old factions if he wants to create a new one.

 

Anyway, this argument has exactly zip to do with the point of this thread.

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Every single faction in TDM corresponds with the factions in Thief.

Except that, y'know... they don't. See Springheel's post.

 

The Inventor's Guild, for example, has no direct comparison to any Thief faction. The closest faction is the Mechanists, but even then there's only one similarity:

 

Similarities:

* They both make machines.

 

Differences:

* They make different styles of machines; Mechanists make huge, lumbering, heavy, metal contraptions. The Inventor's Guild does steampunk machines too, but with more delicacy, and less emphasis on GIANT STEAMPUNK ROBOTS. And it's not the only thing they invent.

* From my impression of it, the Inventor's Guild doesn't limit itself to machines, but is also interested in the wider field of science, and knowledge for knowledge's sake.

* The Inventor's Guild isn't a nutty religious organisation.

* The Inventor's Guild is not lead by a madman with a creepy voice.

* The Inventor's Guild is not a breakaway group from any other faction.

* The Inventor's Guild doesn't use magic. (Hammerite priests do. Not sure about Mechanists, it's been a while since Thief 2.)

* The Inventor's Guild isn't a nutty religious organisation! (Repeated for emphasis.)

 

You just argued yourself that we don't need new factions. Implying the ones we have are in fact old. Old thief factions with different names.

Way to read a novel into a single word! I interpreted that word "new" as being used in the sense of "additional": i.e. "additional factions", beyond the ones already established in the TDM universe descriptions on the wiki.

My games | Public Service Announcement: TDM is not set in the Thief universe. The city in which it takes place is not the City from Thief. The player character is not called Garrett. Any person who contradicts these facts will be subjected to disapproving stares.
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Way to read a novel into a single word!

 

That's what journalists do.

 

It's a pointless thread of discussion anyway; whether TDM factions are based on ("ripped off", or whatever you want to call it) the Thief factions is simply a matter of perspective with no right or wrong answer.

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Yes. Let's leave the factions in peace (if you want, you could open another thread for it) and go back towards the original topic: the recipe for a good mission.

 

We mappers might get excellent ideas from each other, or from the community eagerly waiting for TDM.

 

Ladies and gentlemen, the floor is yours!

:)

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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