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The recipe for a good mission?


Macsen

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It would be nice to enter each level with the same anticipation and knowing the same amount about the world as you did when you first heard a guard say, 'I'm going down to the bear pits tomorrow...'

 

Yes it would, but the maps have to be made by someone first. Mappers need to know much more about the world than players do (and work from a common baseline), if they want their maps to have anything in common with each other.

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So by the sound of it you guys are going ahead with your own campaign, or at least a collection of inspiring maps??
There won't be a campaign for the initial TDM release, but there will be a few complete maps.

 

That's another reason why I think the dark mod should be deliberately vague about the city's history and not ascribe too much detail to the factions. For one thing people will mostly ignore it, and also because it's better for a world to grow organically as a community project and without the artifical restriction of pre-designed plots.
I agree with Springheel. We shouldn't expose players to detailed info, but there's nothing wrong with ironing out a lot of details of factions/history/etc for mappers.
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I think the dark mod world is sufficiently large to allow pretty much any interpretation of the toolset by a mapper. A good map will be a good one however much it has in common with other maps, and we're not in a position to demand that people stick to pre-arranged plots and synopses anyway.

 

That the builders like to build, the inventors like to invent, the mages like to use magic, and the pagans are pagan is probably clear enough without going into detail. Therefore a general understanding of the setting as a medieval/steampunk one would probably suffice. Beyond that, I'm excited to see individual interpretations of the world. :)

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Mappers have been pretty clear in their requests for setting information. They want to know what the basics are, so they can integrate their ideas into an existing world. Without a baseline, maps would be contradicting each other on major details on a regular basis (or just copying Thief), so there would wind up being no real 'setting' at all.

 

Of course, if mappers don't want to place their mission in the "official" TDM setting, there's nothing saying they have to.

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Am i the only one, who`s been sucked by the

hints in the loading-screens? :angry:

No, you're not the only one. :) Check out New Horizon's Minimalist project. I think it allows you to remove those hints. (I may be wrong, it's been a while.)

 

I think that also ties into what was good about Thief's method of introducing the player to the world. Unlike RPGs that force you to read lengthy boring history novels before you can play the game

*cough* Elder Scrolls series *cough*

 

I didn't mind the first book or two, but it really did get old after that.

My games | Public Service Announcement: TDM is not set in the Thief universe. The city in which it takes place is not the City from Thief. The player character is not called Garrett. Any person who contradicts these facts will be subjected to disapproving stares.
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That was actually one of the things I liked about Morrowind, all the long books and the histories and such. They really reduced them in Oblivion which was a disappointment for me

 

But of course I agree that crucial hints should NOT be on page 18 or whatever.

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That was actually one of the things I liked about Morrowind, all the long books and the histories and such. They really reduced them in Oblivion which was a disappointment for me

 

But of course I agree that crucial hints should NOT be on page 18 or whatever.

 

I gotta agree with the book thin in Morrowind, I spent many hours in front of a virtual fire reading the virtual books - loved that more than fighting :) There were some exceptionally good short stories in Morrowind.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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Mappers have been pretty clear in their requests for setting information. They want to know what the basics are, so they can integrate their ideas into an existing world.

Granted, but at what point does the information stop being informative and start being restrictive? I think the most important word in what you said was 'basics' - looking at the wiki there's a lot of information there that falls into what SE would no doubt call 'prescriptive' language. ;) For instance, is it necessary that mappers are told that the Builder's Grand Cathedral and City Council Chambers are atop the same hill? That mages are forbidden from taking civic positions? That books of magic are all written in a specific language? That's not really the basic information, it's pretty specific. It's no less specific info than the Thief games gave us about the precise geography of the city and inner workings of the factions, across two whole games.

 

The big problem I think is that many people will at first just build missions they had planned for Thief 2 or DS but put on hold until the Dark Mod comes out. I hope as you do that we don't just see a rehash of the thief world - that's the worst case scenario. But I don't really think we'll see missions that fit around what's in the wiki either.

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Granted, but at what point does the information stop being informative and start being restrictive? I think the most important word in what you said was 'basics' - looking at the wiki there's a lot of information there that falls into what SE would no doubt call 'prescriptive' language.

 

Yes, it is something of a balancing act. If you don't give any specific information, then you wind up with a bland, generic environment. There also won't be any sense of a coherent setting between maps, as mappers will have to fill in all the extra information themselves. It doesn't make much sense if major facts (like the location of significant buildings or the existance of a particular faction) changes from one map to the next simply because mappers didn't have any guidelines.

 

On the other hand, it's also possible to give too much information and not allow mappers the freedom they need to create the missions they want. This is a familiar issue to anyone involved in RPG design. Clearly mapping out the entire city, down to which shops are located on which streets, would be a bad idea.

 

I happen to think we're striking the right balance. The setting (thus far) is interesting and has loads of potential for creative plots. Mappers have lots of freedom to do interesting things, and even the restrictions can be worked around if necessary--just like in life there are exceptions to most rules.

 

If mappers find the setting information doesn't suit the story they want to tell, they have lots of options, including placing their map in a different city, or even a different setting. But I think those who want their map to be a part of the TDM world will appreciate the extra details that can help bring the setting alive.

 

The big problem I think is that many people will at first just build missions they had planned for Thief 2 or DS but put on hold until the Dark Mod comes out.

 

Experience thus far doesn't seem to support that, but you could be right.

 

But I don't really think we'll see missions that fit around what's in the wiki either.

 

I guess we'll see.

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It doesn't make much sense if major facts (like the location of significant buildings or the existance of a particular faction) changes from one map to the next simply because mappers didn't have any guidelines.

 

why does there need to be so much consistency between unrelated maps? In the Thief FMs building locations changed a lot from map to map, and I've never heard of anyone saying that was one of the major flaws. IMHO, and people can disagree, but I think that it's more important that maps have the same vibe (you know, medieval steampunk) but not so important that they have identical, or even remotely similar layouts. people should create the map as they envision them. Maps quality will certainly go down if people are trying to adhere to guidelines, rather than doing what comes to them naturally.

Milestones approaching:

Recital: 3-24-12

ToughMudder: 4-15-12

Release first FM: ?-?-20??

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why does there need to be so much consistency between unrelated maps?

 

If the maps are unrelated, then there doesn't need to be any consistency at all. :mellow:

 

However, if the maps are supposed to be located in the same city in the same setting, then that requires that they agreed on some significant issues related to that setting. Unlike Thief, we don't have two 12-mission campaigns to establish the setting, so we have to do it ahead of time if we want to create some sense of coherence--and from the number of requests we got for this kind of information, there are definitely a lot of mappers who do want that sense of a unified setting.

 

Of course, the mappers that don't care about an established setting won't have to use it. Everybody wins.

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Indeed, the specifics are there if we want to use them, and they're hardly restrictive since they are only a couple dozen specifics and we still have untold millions of specifics we can make up that are fully compatable

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I'm not sure why mappers would need to know that this an that building are next to each other, unless they plan to base their maps in or around those buildings, in which case there would be even more inconsistencies as everyone would portray the same buildings differently.

 

But hey-ho, if it works it works, and if it doesn't no harm done. The foundation of a world laid out in the wiki is certainly no worse than what most people would come up with. But I'd prefer that it develops organically through various maps from the release of the toolset on, rather than having a 'Games Master' continue to develop a vision for the world and expect everyone else to build around it.

 

On that point, how will this 'official' Dark Mod world would develop over time? Say a mapper creates a particularly good mission, would the details from that mission then be added as part of the wiki? Who would decide? Does an elite order of dark mod mappers come together and say 'We declare this to be Canon!' Or will the wiki just stay as it is with the most basic info forever?

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Good questions!

 

Who will be cannon overseer? It would have to be some obsessive who plays all the FMs!

 

And I think that describing districts is fine, but not the specific location of buildings because of what Macsen said. If we have rich or poor districts, a financial district, one which contains all the government buildings and so on that's fine (and that half submerged one is a great idea and one that could spawn some great missions).

 

But to say building X is across the road from building Y is a problem unless there is definitely going to be a TDM in-house campaign that has all the named buildings in it at least once. Even in the background where you can't reach them.

 

To this end, and the fact that in Thief 1 and 2 there are many missions that establish facts about the world (as someone else has already said), an in-house campaign would provide a solid basis for the use of the world by fan mappers.

 

Nightwalker over at TTLG seems to play all the FMs and know them inside out. I vote Nightwalker for cannon overseer!!

I want your brain... to make his heart... beat faster.

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On that point, how will this 'official' Dark Mod world would develop over time?

 

It's a valid question, that applies to both setting information as well as feature expansions. There has been a little discussion about that internally, but it isn't exactly a pressing issue at the moment, and we do have boatloads of more important work to do if we want to release a beta version a year from now.

 

My suspicion is that the decision to add features or setting info as "official" or not will be made the same way it is now--majority rule, after copious amounts of debate.

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On a side note, I think mappers should avoid cloning rooms as much as possible and also try and avoid glass walls as much as possible. Sometimes you cannot, but try too. And every area should feel and look different from all other areas. It's annoying to play a level where there's 10 identical rooms and one just so happens to have a hatch or door that you miss because it looks like every other single room.

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why does there need to be so much consistency between unrelated maps?

 

You know, I watched Harry Potter. In the first two movies the setting was pretty consistent. In the third or fourth movie, suddenly the location was extremly changed for no reason. I mean, they already had the first movies, so it wouldn't have been a problem to look at them. But no, suddenly there was a steep hill where none was before and so on. I found this quite annoying and inconsistent.

 

In the Thief FMs building locations changed a lot from map to map, and I've never heard of anyone saying that was one of the major flaws.

 

We are not Thief .

 

IMHO, and people can disagree, but I think that it's more important that maps have the same vibe (you know, medieval steampunk) but not so important that they have identical, or even remotely similar layouts. people should create the map as they envision them. Maps quality will certainly go down if people are trying to adhere to guidelines, rather than doing what comes to them naturally.

 

They don't need to have identical layouts, but major parts of the city should be consistent IMO. Also I doubt that there is really a problem with that, because most people wont run around in the city and measure if they are correct. This is mostly a story issue, than a mapping issue.

Gerhard

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It seems likely to me that the first people to create levels with TDM will be veteran Dromeders well steeped in Thief mythology, and their creations will reflect this background. There is simply no way around it. Of course, what is there in the toolset will be influential; a lot of a level's feel comes from textures and objects. The resulting shared world will be precisely as distant from The City as TDM is distant from TDP and TMA.

 

As for canon, it works best when it is vague and allows considerable leeway in authorial vision. Worldbuilding for its own sake is subordinate to a level which plays well, and unless provided in moderation, it can become limiting. What is there on the Wiki is about enough; when we see the game, we will also know how it works in practice.

Edited by Melan

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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You know, I watched Harry Potter. In the first two movies the setting was pretty consistent. In the third or fourth movie, suddenly the location was extremly changed for no reason. I mean, they already had the first movies, so it wouldn't have been a problem to look at them. But no, suddenly there was a steep hill where none was before and so on. I found this quite annoying and inconsistent.

I hated that too. The entire look and feel of the castle changed as well. Oh, and they randomly added that wonky bridge, which didn't exist in either the previous movies or the books. It's not clearly specified where the bridge is, though after watching the fifth movie again I believe it's near Hogsmeade. Which is perched up on an otherwise-inaccessible rocky outcrop on the side of a mountain, for some reason. WTF.

 

The change occurred when the series got a new director. Not a coincidence.

 

I really dislike the lack of a sense of place in the Harry Potter movies. It's like, here's the Hogsmeade set. Here's the "some random Hogwarts corridor" set. We've got the "Divination classroom" set, the "courtyard" set, the "lakeside" set, the "forest" set, the "Hagrid's hut" set etc. etc. - and we have no idea how these places are spatially related to each other. They're just sort of... ambiguously somewhere.

My games | Public Service Announcement: TDM is not set in the Thief universe. The city in which it takes place is not the City from Thief. The player character is not called Garrett. Any person who contradicts these facts will be subjected to disapproving stares.
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The change occurred when the series got a new director. Not a coincidence.

 

There was a new director for every film, though. In my opinion the third (Alfonso Cuaron) was by far the best, even if the look did change from the first two films.

 

The first two seemed more like kids' films to me, while the fourth was mostly action and hardly any character development. I felt the fifth was better, but not as good as the third.

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Actually I felt that the movies degraded quite a lot after the second. Yes, the first two felt more like kids movies, but they had a great atmosphere, which they started to lack from the third on. Well, also the books are like this to some extent. The first ones feel like kids book, while the later ones get more serious as well. But still, I don't really like the direction the movies are taking.

Gerhard

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Get a room Harry Potter fans!

 

I think the third film relocated the school to the Scottish highlands, which is where it is located in the books. The landscape around the school looked much better in the third film I thought. I don't mind if a few landmarks change position, it's supposed to be a magical castle after all - maybe it moves every now and then like the castle in Krull. :)

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I'm not sure whether this is in the Wiki or not as I can't seem to access the page, and it's a bit off-topic; but i was thinking it would be good to get a standardised procedure for installing mods. For example i've played games that are somewhat moddable and allow for custom content but when you try to install mods they require you to unpack things, overwrite core files, backup others, create shortcuts and use different executables. I often find this highly frustrating and prefer mods that have setup and install programs and the like that make it easy to install. So I reckon it would be a good idea to include technical aspects in the Wiki that could help mappers actually pack their mods in standardised executables or zip files and the like. The same goes for making Readmes and disclaimers which I've often found are not present in some mods. You guys have probably dealt with this already, considering that TDM is built from the ground up for modders.

Also a while back I remember when the Darkmod was first starting up someone on TTLG had developed a mod-organiser for the DromEd stuff; it was compatible for TDP and TMA and the author was suggesting adding DarkMod compatibility. I can't remember the name; but do any of you guys know if that went ahead? I've always found such tools to be very handy, particularly when you have alot of FM's installed. If it is compatible, adding something to the Wiki to ensure FM authors' uploaded maps work with this program would be a plus IMO.

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