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Didn't Thelvyn do that as a side project for the Linux build of TDM? (My apologies if I've forgotten the true person to have done that!)

 

*ahem*...

 

Thelvyn certainly did do some work on Linux, I think he put in place the framework for getting the lightgem setup (not sure if that was completed or if it is still outstanding). Fortunately he was spared the many hours of combing the codebase for MS-specific non-standard code, mixed-case includes, out-of-date build scripts and other general dreck. :wacko:

 

I for one would hate to see our DR devs' talents go to waste (yep waste) on adding support (right now) for another OS, whatever it is. The core functionality (of which there is a boatload, and more to come) far outweighs that task in importance.

 

Agreed. The fact of the matter is that there are simply no resources available to sort out Vista compatibility at this time, no matter how important it may seem to those who are using it. Once it becomes feasible to look into it it can obviously be dealt with, but it isn't easy to drum up a fully-functioning development environment in a new operating system without investing time and probably money.

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My concern is that development will keep going and when it comes time to sort out Vista compatibility we will find that some fundamental issue is the problem - an issue that cannot be fixed or is very hard to fix as so much hangs off it and which wouldn't present such a problem if dealt with earlier.

 

If that will not be the case then it's fine to fix it at a later date.

 

For the time being can I still build missions in DoomEdit that will run in the mod?

I want your brain... to make his heart... beat faster.

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*ahem*...

Shit, I had a feeling. Sorry! :blush:

 

For the time being can I still build missions in DoomEdit that will run in the mod?

Absolutely, in fact a hope is that DoomEd will always at least minimally function to edit with TDM, while of course missing the TDM-specific functionality (and general ass-kicking-ness) found in DarkRadiant.

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Lol, 'time and patience' to install vista. Download the bloody thing and stick it on another HD, It hardly requires time or patience.

I thought it was common practice for developers to have several OSes to test on, like web designers having several different browsers to test on.

Vista is soon going to be the most widely used OS.

 

You do need:

 

* the time

* the HD space

* a vista license

* the patience

* the skills

 

to install and debug stuff under vista. Several people here have one thing or another, so it is not as easy as you say.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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You do need:

 

* the time - 30 minute install?

* the HD space - 20 gigs?

* a vista license - nope

* the patience - nope (see above)

* the skills - oh yeah, the leet skillz required to put a bootable vista CD in your drive and restart your computer.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

character models site

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* the time - 30 minute install?

* the HD space - 20 gigs?

* a vista license - nope

* the patience - nope (see above)

* the skills - oh yeah, the leet skillz required to put a bootable vista CD in your drive and restart your computer.

 

I think he was talking about debugging it under vista more so than installing the OS, even if he said both. I may be wrong.

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I don't think there is really anything that could get any harder to fix if we continue onward with development SE. If anything, the problem may get solved when some more of the crappy GTK spaghetti code is rewritten by our dev team. You have to remember, we inherited the GTKRadiant code base from another team, so all their warts are ours now to deal with. GTK was written long before Vista, so it's not likely to place nice with a lot of our changes sometimes. It will be fixed when the resources and time become available, but for now it's lower priority than some other issues.

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@Subjective Effect: I already promised to look into that sometime in the near future. Apart from that I can't help you right now, sorry. No point to weigh in more on your arguments when we already agreed to add Vista support, things won't happen earlier because of that.

 

Setting up a build environment in Vista is not as trivial as some people may think. It was hard enough in Windows XP, so let's hope there won't be any problems.

 

Regarding the codebase, it's very unlikely that there is anything which will get harder to fix over time.

 

(And to get this off my chest too: The way you write your posts, you appear almost offended that I don't rush off immediately, buy a new hard disk, install that damn Vista and debug it so that you can use it on your favourite OS. I'm already working my ass off for TDM and DarkRadiant, and it's not like I get paid for anything here, you know.)

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Sometimes it's good to get stuff off your chest!

 

I imagine that if I'd taken the plunge and switched over to Vista and started loving it, then a month or two later discovered that my Thief project won't work in it, I might feel like SE too.

 

But anyway you've addressed his main last concern, that perhaps something would be easier to "nip in the bud" sooner rather than difficultly extract later.

 

Since it's apparantly very unlikely that anything is like that, we can all just rest assured that Vista compatability will be something looked into down the road.

 

(PS - thanks for doing that clipper tool texture fix I wanted, I'm loving it every time I clip a brush and the texture is right!)

shadowdark50.gif keep50.gif
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I didn't know if anyone had noticed my concern about something that might be easier to "nip in the bud" was all greebo. I certainly don't expect you to rush to fix it, apologies if it seemed that way.

 

This:

Regarding the codebase, it's very unlikely that there is anything which will get harder to fix over time.

is very reassuring.

 

Final question guys: Anything I make in Doom3Edit will work in TDM and allow use of TDM specific functions when loading through TDM won't it?

I want your brain... to make his heart... beat faster.

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(And to get this off my chest too: The way you write your posts, you appear almost offended that I don't rush off immediately, buy a new hard disk, install that damn Vista and debug it so that you can use it on your favourite OS. I'm already working my ass off for TDM and DarkRadiant, and it's not like I get paid for anything here, you know.)

 

Yeah. That was exactly why I got pissed off about these postings. It's not as if everybody just sits here and waits for some Vista user to complain and immediatly rush to the rescue. It's an open project and anybody can do what he likes (sort of), but there is no obligation that we have to support soemthing that some users might deem absolutely necessary.

I would also like to get some models and sound effects for my maps, but I can't expect all the others stop working on their stuff just to accommodate me, so I have to either do it myself, or if I can't ask poeple if they can do it and wait until I find somebody who can do it.

Really! No matter how much some think that Vista will fly, which it may not, because MS has problems selling it, except to the stupid people who think they are cewl if they put up with everything that MS throws at them. If it works, it's fine, and if not, well that's a problem that early adopters always have.

Gerhard

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Final question guys: Anything I make in Doom3Edit will work in TDM and allow use of TDM specific functions when loading through TDM won't it?

 

You can do everything in Doomedit. The only difference is that you have to set all the spawnargs yourself, where DR knows about them and can set them with a visual interface (like S&R for example). So it's some extra work, but definitely doable.

Gerhard

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The "nip it in the bud" thing is a valid concern, but as Greebo said this should not be a problem, because we are steadily improving the robustness of the codebase by insisting on standard C++ and good design practices, rather than the butt-ugly hacks that the GtkRadiant developers preferred.

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I've managed to setup a MinGW/Vista build environment and I can confirm the crash. However, I don't have a working debugger, so I'll try to reproduce that crash using the VC++ IDE instead, before I go and use std::cout debug outputs.

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After going through massloads of linker problems, I finally got VC++ to compile a DarkRadiant build which is working in Vista. My suspicion is that MinGW might be too outdated in the meantime to produce a working build for both WinXP and Vista.

 

I have both environments set up here, maybe I can look into upgrading MinGW to gcc4 or newer windows libraries, but my hopes are low that this will work. The MinGW compiler is so old and a new stable version doesn't seem to be released soon (announced for over 1 to 2 years now?).

 

I'll try to mock up a VC++ release build so that Subjective Effect can test it on his machine. I probably can't keep this Vista environment alive for long, as it's running an angua's old 80 GB HDD - she will swap the drive soon to get back her regular setup.

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Really! No matter how much some think that Vista will fly, which it may not, because MS has problems selling it, except to the stupid people who think they are cewl if they put up with everything that MS throws at them. If it works, it's fine, and if not, well that's a problem that early adopters always have.

 

Lol, you just installed XP you twat, so that makes you more of an idiot than the people who installed vista, because XP is an even worse MS product than Vista.

If you are an XP user, there's nothing stupid about downloading vista and installing it for free.

Everything to gain and nothing to lose.

The idiots are the ones sticking to XP because of all the scare stories they've read about Vista, none of which are true.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

character models site

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I have both environments set up here, maybe I can look into upgrading MinGW to gcc4 or newer windows libraries, but my hopes are low that this will work. The MinGW compiler is so old and a new stable version doesn't seem to be released soon (announced for over 1 to 2 years now?).

 

Yes, that annoys me about MinGW too. GCC 4 has been out for years and they don't seem to want to upgrade.

 

Maybe now the GraphTreeModel stuff is solved, perhaps we should move to VC++ only for Windows builds (assuming a free version is available)? SCons could still invoke the VC++ compiler tools if required.

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:laugh: I know. Thousands of forum user crying for help are just initiated from evil linux user to spread the lie. LOL

 

Well there's your answer then, it's just that those people are stupid, period, its nothing to do with the OS they are using. If they can't even use a noob-friendly OS like Windows, they'd be even more fucked if they tried Linux.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

character models site

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Anything I make in Doom3Edit will work in TDM and allow use of TDM specific functions when loading through TDM won't it?

 

Yes. Some things, like Stim/Response, you will have to do by hand because there's no interface in D3ed. But for the most part you'll be fine. And whenever the problem with Vista is solved, you can switch over to DR without any hassle.

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* a vista license - nope

 

Please go away.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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