Keys, scrolls and the inventory

[R Soul]

I did a search but I didn't find anything about this:

 

With the Dark engine, I find the inventory a bit cumbersome when I have lots of things. At least with the official items (flashbombs, mines etc) we can have keybinds, but if a mission has lots of keys and scrolls, finding the right one becomes a bit tedious.

 

How will the inventory work in TDM?

 

I was thinking there could be one object for 'Your Scrolls' which when opened, reveals a list of all the scrolls they player has. Something similar for keys perhaps. It would also be nice to be able to rename them if the author has been a bit vague. In the Thief OMs items were often just left as "Key" or "Scroll", and it's possible that authors could do the same.

 

Also it would be nice to be able to assign a key(board button) to an inventory object in case it'll need to be accessed frequently (say a scroll containing a list of instructions).

[greebo]

I was thinking there could be one object for 'Your Scrolls' which when opened, reveals a list of all the scrolls they player has. Something similar for keys perhaps. It would also be nice to be able to rename them if the author has been a bit vague. In the Thief OMs items were often just left as "Key" or "Scroll", and it's possible that authors could do the same.

 

Also it would be nice to be able to assign a key(board button) to an inventory object in case it'll need to be accessed frequently (say a scroll containing a list of instructions).

We have of course "Inventory Next" and "Inventory Prev". Additionally to that, we have "Inventory Next Group" and "Inventory Prev Group" to cycle over massive amounts of potions or scrolls.

 

Also, you can bind keys to special inventory items by name, e.g. bind "f" "inventory_hotkey Lantern".

 

Renaming inventory items by the player is not supported currently, as this is probably causing issues with custom map scripts which rely on inventory items having certain names.

[R Soul]

The next/previous group buttons sound good.

 

Come to think of it, the item names issue shouldn't be too much of a problem. Most people making FMs for Dark do tend to give appropriate names so I'm sure the habit will transfer over to TDM.

Edited December 31, 2007 by R Soul

[Baddcog]

Well, I've just made up a bunch of chest prefabs and I can say that if the keys DON'T have a unique inventory name then they will stack together and won't work if they are to be used on different doors.

 

Dromed used numbers, so a gold key with (lock code)11,1,10 (or however it is, I forget exactly) will not stack with a gold key with 11,10,11 code on it.

They could both be named gold key in Dromed so you'd have 2 gold keys in your inventory.

 

With DR you put the editor name of the key on the door (instead of lock code). So if you create 2 gold key entities they both have an inv_name of gold key. That'll make them stack together. But one will be automatically named goldkey1 and the next will be gold key2 (editor names)

If you put editor name goldkey1 on the door it will open that door, but if you pick up both keys they will stack and I don't believe either will open that door.

So the author HAS to put Inv_name on each key they don't want stacked. Whether or not they want to call it rusty key, rusty key 1, or golden super special key is up to them.

[demagogue]

With DR you put the editor name of the key on the door (instead of lock code).

 

This should save some familiar grief.

 

 

If you put editor name goldkey1 on the door it will open that door, but if you pick up both keys they will stack and I don't believe either will open that door.

 

I'm not sure I follow this. Just to clarify, a lot of missions are going to want multiple keys that have the same name, stack, and all open the same door ... it happens when multiple guards are carrying the same key; you can swipe it from any one, but you don't want to give the message they're carrying different keys, so you want them to stack. Are you saying this can't be done, because keys that stack get different editor names, and different editor names can't open the same door?

Edited December 31, 2007 by demagogue

[Baddcog]

Sorry, I realized my post might be a little confusing.

To directly answer your question, Yes it is possible to have multiple keys with the same name (guard house key) open the same door or a series of doors (all guard house doors). You could even have a master key that opens all doors, even though guardhouse keys can only open guardhouse doors.

 

It's actually easier than Dromed to have master keys. I used a set-up in Random House (T2) that had a master key, but also keys for each level, security area.

That was a system of 1's and 0's that I had to make up a chart for. For DR you just use names of the keys on the doors.

 

Below is detailed info.

 

A key entity has 2 names.

 

The editor name, ie: key_gold1 (we named all keys- key_gold, key_rusty, ect...)

So when you create the first one it's editor name will be key_gold1, the next gold key you create will be key_gold2 and so on...

(This is like creating a gold key in Dromed but Dromed calls it A Gold Key (1486)...)

This name isn't seen by player, but is what the door uses to recognize it. No 2 keys can have the same editor name but doors can have multiple keys assigned to them. (In Dromed there could be multiple A Gold Key's, but they'd each have a unique number (1486, 1487...)

So the door's value used_by can have key_gold1, key_gold2, key_gold3 and all 3 of these keys will open that door. key_gold4 wouldn't work.

 

and inventory name : stated in the value inv_name. All key_gold keys will have a default name of Gold Key. All keys with this inv_name will stack together. This can be changed on a per key basis as the author sees fit, ie: upstairs key or guard house key. Same names will stack, different names won't stack.

(this would be like giving an inventory name in Dromed also, it's what the player sees under the icon, however Dromed stacked by lock codes I believe (10,11,1) or maybe another inv prop, I can't recall)

If you have more than one 'gold key' it will show in the stack count (2,3 whatever)

 

You can also have lockpicks and keys open the same door I believe.

[demagogue]

Ok, I think I get it. It's like the system of what keys open what doors is independent of the system controlling what keys stack ... so you could make any individual key open any door(s) you want (via editor name), and any group of keys stack (inv name).

You're just saying that means, for example, that the author needs to pay attention to make sure every key in the stack opens the door they're collectively supposed to (by linking every editor name to the door). That's the punchline.

Edited January 1, 2008 by demagogue

[R Soul]

So let's say I have key_rusty1, key_silver1 (just a guess) and key_gold1

 

Then say pumphouse_door is used by key_rusty1 and key_gold1

 

house_door is used by key_silver1 and key_gold1

 

key_gold is then a sort of master key as it opens both doors.

 

If I gave the same inventory name (say 'Stolen Key') to key_rusty1 and key_silver1, when the player has both of them, they'll stack, and one of the editor_names will be lost, rendering one of the keys useless. So I know not to do that, but just out of interest, which key's editor name would be kept? The first on the stack or the most recent?

Edited January 1, 2008 by R Soul

[Baddcog]

Yes, key_gold1 would work on both doors if both doors have it specified.

 

I just tested out the stacking as I hadn't really gotten around to that stuff yet.

 

It looks like the first key you pick-up with an inv_name will be the one that continues to work. It will also be the one that specifies which icon to use. So if you had a situation like that it would probably be best to use 'Stolen Silver Key' and 'Stolen Rusty Key' unless they work on all the same doors. They could still both be set to open the same doors, or only some of the same doors but they wouldn't stack in Inv.

 

But if you are going to have more than one key open ALL the same doors it's probably best to give them the same inv name so they stack, even if one is silver and one is rusty, the stack count would be 2 so the player knows they picked up 2 that are used on the same doors. If the stack count wasn't there you'd wonder where that 3rd key went.

[ZylonBane]

We have of course "Inventory Next" and "Inventory Prev". Additionally to that, we have "Inventory Next Group" and "Inventory Prev Group" to cycle over massive amounts of potions or scrolls.

I think players would really appreciate having a dedicated "Next Key" command.

 

Of course, the best possible solution to managing large inventories would be to have an "Inventory" command that pops up a grid display of everything you're carrying. Not being able to visualize your inventory is needlessly retro.

Edited January 2, 2008 by ZylonBane

[demagogue]

You can call it retro, but it's also minimalist.

I think a change like that to the interface would change the game's character a little ... although better or worse is a matter of opinion, but I like the modest minimalism of the inventory system. (I wouldn't mind the option to have an RPG grid-system for some FMs if it fit the mission style, though.)

Edited January 2, 2008 by demagogue

[Baddcog]

I think being able to cycle through groups is a huge improvement over T2. I would not be in favor of a 'role playing' inventory like Morrowind or Deus X personally.

[Crispy]

I think players would really appreciate having a dedicated "Next Key" command.

I think this was sarcastic, but nevertheless, "Next inventory item" will work fine for that. "Next inventory group" gets you to the keys area of the inventory, and "next inventory item" scrolls through it.

 

Note that you don't need to use "next inventory group" at all if you don't want to. The group system just adds extra convenience, by putting related items next to each other in the inventory, and allowing you to skip through a large inventory quickly. You can stick to inventory prev/next and it'll work exactly the same as Thief 2.

 

@Baddcog: It's "Deus Ex". As in "Deus ex machina".

[Baddcog]

Yeah, I know I spelled it wrong but I didn't like that game anyway And your ref to 'deus ex machina' escapes me, is that spanish?

 

Zylon sarcatsic?

[Crispy]

Yeah, I know I spelled it wrong but I didn't like that game anyway

Heresy!

 

And your ref to 'deus ex machina' escapes me, is that spanish?

No, Latin. It's a cliched narrative device, see Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina

 

See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_Ex#Name_etymology for an explanation of why they used the reference:

 

"the name was both meant as a reference to the various factions in the game who aspire to god-like powers, as well as a dig at the typical video game plot, which tends to be laden with "deus ex machina" artifices and other poor script writing techniques."

 

As the game's intro says: "Aquinas spoke of the mythical city on the hill, soon that city will be a reality and we will be crowned its kings. Or, better than kings... gods!"

 

Zylon sarcatsic?

Never!

[sparhawk]

Of course, the best possible solution to managing large inventories would be to have an "Inventory" command that pops up a grid display of everything you're carrying. Not being able to visualize your inventory is needlessly retro.

 

We discussed this quite early in the design process, and decided against it.

[ZylonBane]

I think this was sarcastic, but nevertheless, "Next inventory item" will work fine for that. "Next inventory group" gets you to the keys area of the inventory, and "next inventory item" scrolls through it.

You've obviously never played any of Jason Otto's FMs.

[demagogue]

The FM that came to my mind was Ominous Bequest when you're being

swarmed by 8 burricks

in close quarters and you have to find

the Horn of Get-the-hell-out-of-here and use it

. It took a little keyboard aerobics to cycle through 50 objects while dodging bad guys surrounding you. That's the kind of situation when the cycle-inventory system can suck ... but fortunately it doesn't happen all that often.

Edited January 2, 2008 by demagogue

[Domarius]

The FM that came to my mind was Ominous Bequest when you're being

swarmed by 8 burricks

in close quarters and you have to find

the Horn of Get-the-hell-out-of-here and use it

.

Good to see they finally gave a practical name to an artifact for once instead of something cool and fancy sounding

[Melan]

You've obviously never played any of Jason Otto's FMs.

 

Let us not get into outlying cases. In most T2 FMs, normal cycling worked just fine. If a designer has several items in his mission, it is his responsibility to label them appropriately.

[Baddcog]

Yes, in those FM's I used the same technique I use in FPS games. Don't reload in the open! Find a hiding spot, ready the item, charge!