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Unstoppable

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Guitar Hero is that happy medium between "Air guitar" and the real thing :) Your efforts pay off quicker and the gratification is more instant, but at a much smaller scale. For those of us who just want a taste of the experience :)

 

I see what oDDity is saying, he's not trolling, just pointing out the futility of debating one form of entertainment over another.

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Everyone pay very close attention to the follow paragraphs I am about to write. However ask yourself this question. Why should you pay attention to what i'm about to say?

 

I have done hours of research into discovering why in the world Deus Ex: Invisible War turned out the way in did.

 

I will also explain why Deus Ex 3 is going to be a game you can look foward to. I am not affiliated with any company. I will be speaking from my own research and point out to factual interviews and videos that I have acquired through my many years of research. I am also not a reporter. I am simply one of the most die hard fans of Deus Ex you will ever find.

 

First of all I will clear up the misconception of Invisible War. The reason why the game turned out the way to be is the following.

 

1)Warren Spector put Harvey Smith as project lead, Warren took a back seat as Studio director. Harvey called the shots not Warren. (Fact)

 

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/deus-ex/504039p1.html

 

 

2)Ionstorm Austin hired a programmer to write the renderer. A renderer is used to create dynamic lightning for the game. They could not get it to work and the programmer also created a whole game engine instead of the renderer.

 

http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2004/07/the_second_life.html

 

<------FROM THE WORDS OF HARVEY SMITH HIMSELF THE ENGINE WAS CRIPPLED AND GAME NEEDED MORE TIME.

 

What they got was a butchered Unreal 2.0 engine with extreme limitations towards the level size. Subsequently the programmer was let go The game being on an Xbox had ZERO impact on it being crippled.(fact)

 

3)It was a result of the engine, not a console. By the time Harvey and company figured out the limits they were already half way into the project and it was too late to start over.(fact)

 

4)All the things you just said about universal ammo etc were a result of Warren Spector telling Harvey Smith paraphrased "I want you to shock me." Giving a person who just stepped into a leadership role that much freedom created poor choices like universal ammo, and a crippled game engine.

 

So there you have it. The reason why Deus Ex: Invisible War was so dissapointing. Despite the engine being limiting they did a hell of a job.

 

The same goes for Thief: Deadly Shadows, however that game was way better. They had more time with the engine, and someone else was leading the project. However due to the limiting engine they had to break up the levels into chunks. It sucked but it's over and I enjoyed both games.

 

Now on to why Deus Ex 3 is going to rock.

 

1) First off the game already has chosen it's own engine. They will use the Crystal Dynamics in house engine. They have programmer from Crystal Dynamics (Tomb Raider) working on the game and optimizing/tweaking the engine to their taste.

 

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=d...3+engine+chosen The first few links lead you to your discovery!

 

2)Look at the core philosphies and principals a company like Eidos Montreal has established. There is a 24 month development cycle. What does this mean for us? This means that there will be 24 months NOT including pre development/concept for the developers to WORK on the game. Nothing more, but nothing less either. Two years past concept phases to start working on the game. Plenty of time if the pre concept phase is that of 6-12 months.

 

http://www.eidosmontreal.com

 

3)Strong leadership by people who know how to manage large groups of people. (Not Harvey Smith) I'll update to see if anyone who worked at Ionstorm is working at Eidos Montreal. However it is fact Harvey is not involved with the project, he works at Midway games.

http://www.eidosmontreal.com/en/team.html#tab1

 

 

4)Warren Spector might participate in the project. This is probable as he has been paraphrased to saying "This is my baby, but i'm at Disney now. I'll have to see if the time allows for me, or if they want me to participate." end paraphrase.

 

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2007/07/24/wa...out_deus_ex_3/1

 

 

5)People with way more talent. It does not take a genious to figure out Eidos Montreal is loaded with talent. Way more than those that worked on Invisible War. Proof? The cat from Deus Ex 1 looked better then the one on Deus Ex: Invisible War.

 

Add developers from a successfully revived franchise (Tomb Raider) and you have a formula for success. They also have developers who know Deus Ex and love it just as much as we do.

 

http://ps2.ign.com/objects/571/571840.html

 

So there you have it sir. Indesputable evidence that you have nothing to fear. You don't have to put your trust in Eidos Montreal, just look forward to what they can cook up with Deus Ex 3. I know I certainly am.

Edited by Unstoppable
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sorry, I didn't read it.

 

But I hope DX3 will be awesome too :) I liked DX1, couldn't stand DX2 (itsy bitsy teensy weensy levels is what killed it for me)

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Everyone pay very close attention to the follow paragraphs I am about to write. However ask yourself this question. Why should you pay attention to what i'm about to say?

 

I believe I am one of the most hardcore Deus Ex fans in the world. However I am more than just that, much more. I have done hundreds of hours of research into discovering why in the world Deus Ex: Invisible War turned out the way in did.

I'm sure all the gamers in the world will soon bow to your supremacy. Seriously, get a life. ;)

 

(And no, I didn't read your post containing the Absolute Truth neither).

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That's a little rough!

 

Unstoppable, have you tried to contact them to see if you can help out with DX3? You could be like a free advisor or something

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I can guarantee that none of the famous sports stars you know of learned any of their skills from playing computer games.

 

Now that is really an amazing insight! Unfortunately I was not talking about sports stars, but normal people like me, who can't afford to hire coaches for big money. And yes, you can indeed learn quite a lot from a computer game as well.

 

The bottom line is that games are just mindless fun, but you try to justify it by thinking up ways that it might also be useful. It isn't.

 

They are what you make of it. Of course a nihilist and misanthrop like you has to say such stuff, so there is not really any surprise there. Just parroting what your philosophy tells you to.

Gerhard

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They are what you make of it. Of course a nihilist and misanthrop like you has to say such stuff, so there is not really any surprise there. Just parroting what your philosophy tells you to.

Lol! Nice one spar. QFT.

 

Domarius, I'd agree with you but oDDs MO is pretty well known know. The only thing puerile itt is his stubborn assertions.

 

I admire your enthusiasm Unstoppable but nothing you can show us can guarantee that someone at Eidos Montreal with a lot of sway won't miss the point and ask for something stupid.

 

Forget DXIW for a moment and consider 2 games which, whilst being better than average, have disappointed big time and which were both helmed by guys that looked like they knew what they were doing: BioShock and TDS.

 

If devs that people have trust in because of past greatness cannot be trusted to produce a great game (no matter what the circumstances) why should we ever have such undying faith in anyone? I remain skeptical until (happily) proven wrong.

I want your brain... to make his heart... beat faster.

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Now that is really an amazing insight! Unfortunately I was not talking about sports stars, but normal people like me, who can't afford to hire coaches for big money. And yes, you can indeed learn quite a lot from a computer game as well.

They are what you make of it. Of course a nihilist and misanthrop like you has to say such stuff, so there is not really any surprise there. Just parroting what your philosophy tells you to.

 

The only reason I mentioned it is because you were clearly trying to justify it to yourself.

It's clear from this that you are not comfortable being a man approaching 40 who still plays children's games, and therefore you try to justify it by claiming it is 'useful' in some way.

I won't have that. Either do it and fully admit it for the pointless crap that it is, or do something else that does have real meaning - just don't live a lie.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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The only reason I mentioned it is because you were clearly trying to justify it to yourself.

It's clear from this that you are not comfortable being a man approaching 40 who still plays children's games, and therefore you try to justify it by claiming it is 'useful' in some way.

 

I have no problems admitting that. :) Don't know where you got that idea from. In fact I also even read children books sometimes, if I enjoy them. There are some which are still fun to read, even though they are targeted for children.

 

I justify it, because it mean it, which is quite a difference. Since I don't play professionally hockey, only as a hobby, I only have one hour per week for actual training. And yes, it helps a bit to play hockey on the playstation, see how the strategies are implemented, try some things, and then try them on the ice when we have training again. For the same reason even professionals watch videos, which is not THAT different as well, which I try also to do. Only problem there is that you don't get to much videos, because most reports only show the goal sequences, and not much else beside it.

I already asked our local icehockey team if they wouldn't consider to release their videos for a small fee, because they record their plays anyway for training purposes.

 

This is just one example, where a computer game actually help me, but I'm sure there are others as well, if I bother to think about it. After all, it's just another source of information, just like other medias.

Gerhard

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Forget DXIW for a moment and consider 2 games which, whilst being better than average, have disappointed big time and which were both helmed by guys that looked like they knew what they were doing: BioShock and TDS.

Now there we got a confrontation again, because I liked bioshock... ;) Maybe it wasn't as complex as System Shock, but the atmosphere and story (maybe sometimes a little too predictable) was great, as well as the overall graphics and leveldesign. Also the german synchronisation was suprisingly good in my oppinion, although so many said the english version was so much better.

 

But sparhawk is right again. You learn from every media. If you read a paper, watch TV, or play a game, what's the difference? Ok, the information in a game are mostly of less quality than the other medias' and TV information is also of less quality than paper's. From this context one could agree with oddity, because gaming servers the least quality information of the named categories and could be acknowledged a waste of time. BUT on this train of thought I made a little mistake. Isn't the classification of quality information subjective? Yes, it is! For sparhawk a hockey game is understandably more than entertainment like he pointed out and for all of us every first person game is more than entertainment (though not every game is entertaining ;) ), because we play in an analytic way and learn more and more about leveldesign, texturing and all, which is important to most of us.

Edited by STiFU
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I enjoyed a lot of BioShock. The more I played it the more I liked the gameplay mechanics, but (as with Doom3, which I think is the better game) it was only AFTER I'd given in to the final game design.

 

It was still disappointing and the plot was rubbish - it was too similar to that in SS2 but what was worse than that was that it started to well. Ryan in the demo was awesome. In the full game he was weak. Overall it's quite good. I'd give it 6.5/10, and if you really think about what that means it's a decent score.

I want your brain... to make his heart... beat faster.

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Hm well I wasn't trying to come across as putting myself on a pedestal. I just think Deus Ex is my favorite and greatest game of all time.

 

As for Bioshock I enjoyed it but it lacked replayability on my part. I thought it was the best game that month by far since nothing else could touch it. It made it's mark in gaming history and i'm sure there will be an eventual sequel.

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Another of your many errors - computer games are no more for children then films are.

 

Say 'people with a childish mindset' then. It doesn't alter the point.

You cannot compare movies to games of course, since games are all pitched at a very simplistic lowbrow level, at least a fair selection of movies display intelligent design. They are very different, movies and games, the possibilities and limitations of the mediums are different and their aims are different, so analogies between them are always very weak.

Perhaps if you give me some examples of games that were clearly made for adults, with no attempt being made to appeal to children, and an end result which children would not be interested in.

There are certainly plenty of movies which fit this criteria, but no games, and therefore games are always at least a dichotomy of appeal between the childish and the adult (not mature, just adult) mind.

Certainly, applying an 18 certificate to a game in no way means it's intended for an adult audience, since the gamemakers themselves do not apply these age limits, and you know as well as I do that as many kids play 18 games as adults do, and probably more. My nephews have at least four 18 certificate games and they are 9-12, as do all their friends. Applying 18 certificates to games is nothing but an official joke. It's like applying an 18 certificate to a big bag of sweets.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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What is childish about playing games? People extrapolate some childish quality to them because children play them and those people are ignorant. What is childish about the plot of Half-life, Thief, System Shock 1 & 2, Deus Ex or even BioShock? Company of Heroes, Homeworld, Defcon, Far Cry, Medieval Total War? These are just the games on my shelf. The only game here that has a childish plot it Dark Messiah, and even that is pitched at adolescents .

 

Children may play them but a child may watch many films that do not have 15 or 18 ratings and not understand them at all. Indeed many animations are cleverly pitched at both adults and children - they may contain cute characters with wacky adventures but there are many jokes that only adults will get.

 

There is nothing childish per se about playing games.

I want your brain... to make his heart... beat faster.

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Took me 2 hours to cook up the post so please do.

 

Seriously, if you could bottle your excess spare time you'd be rich.

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Sign me up as a customer for when someone figures out how to do that.

My games | Public Service Announcement: TDM is not set in the Thief universe. The city in which it takes place is not the City from Thief. The player character is not called Garrett. Any person who contradicts these facts will be subjected to disapproving stares.
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Unstoppable, I'm a big fan of Deus Ex too, got a lot of fond memories of it. I'll be excited about Deus Ex 3 when it's actually been out for a while and some reliable reviews have come in.

 

If you're genuinely interested in that area of game development and researching for your own interest and happened to share the info that's great, but I'm sure there are many other more satisfying results you could have achieved doing something else with those 2 hours, than try to convince a bunch of jaded DarkModders to be excited about a game that's not even finished yet :)

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What is childish about playing games? People extrapolate some childish quality to them because children play them and those people are ignorant. What is childish about the plot of Half-life, Thief, System Shock 1 & 2, Deus Ex or even BioShock? Company of Heroes, Homeworld, Defcon, Far Cry, Medieval Total War? These are just the games on my shelf. The only game here that has a childish plot it Dark Messiah, and even that is pitched at adolescents .

 

Children may play them but a child may watch many films that do not have 15 or 18 ratings and not understand them at all. Indeed many animations are cleverly pitched at both adults and children - they may contain cute characters with wacky adventures but there are many jokes that only adults will get.

 

There is nothing childish per se about playing games.

 

You deliberately ignored the central point that there are no games that children are not interested in, while there are many movies, books, plays and music that kids wouldn't want to have anything to do with.

What's childish about all those kewl war and shooter games? Come on, stop playing the dumbass, that's what kids do, they play cops and robbers and soldiering, running about pretending to shoot each other from the age of 5, putting it in computer game format makes it even more enticing for them. They are interested in those games in the same way they are interested in alien movies, anything to do with fantasy and kicking ass, smashing things, in short the sorts of things they're not allowed to do in real life. All kids what to do adult things, and putting those things in the fomat of a game makes an irresistible opportunity for children.

The game format, anything in a game format, is automatically appealing to children, just like anything with a toffee coating is appealing to them.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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So toffee coated things are childish? Get out. Children are drawn to many things, shiny blades for example, or playing sports, but that doesn't make them "childish". And there certainly are games that children are not interested in, but then you have to define what you mean by "children". Just like with books and films tastes change as we grow older.

 

The child who liked a cutesy game when 9 may well end up only liking hardcore flight sims when 20, in just the way as our taste in films changes as we grow older. I liked the Transformers cartoon as a kid and it made me want to watch the recent flim (which I thought was pretty poor but that's not the point).

 

What's wrong with just liking something because it's fun? And why the hell should anyone care if you've got a stick so far up your arse that you just can't chill out?

I want your brain... to make his heart... beat faster.

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Well i'm not holding my breath for Deus Ex 3 and I appreciate your comments to my post. I'm just really excited because even though I always believed in DX 3 there wasn't an official announcement until recently.

 

Anyway with Eidos Montreal and the revival of Tomb Raider franchise, I can't hope but feel that Deus Ex 3 will be an above average game at the very least. They are aiming for AAA game which means 9.0 or higher in the game reviews which is great.

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They are aiming for AAA game which means 9.0 or higher in the game reviews

I don't know where you read such a precise definition of "AAA game". It's a pretty nebulous concept. The snarky definition is "a game made using mind-blowingly insanely large amounts of money and which reaps equally large amounts of revenue", for example, which says nothing about the quality of the game. :)

 

This blog post is a pretty good description. http://www.deffmute.com/blog/2005/01/defin...ame-titles.html

My games | Public Service Announcement: TDM is not set in the Thief universe. The city in which it takes place is not the City from Thief. The player character is not called Garrett. Any person who contradicts these facts will be subjected to disapproving stares.
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