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Citywatch rig


squill

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I'm not sure what you mean by 'export the mesh and skeleton'.

 

Do you mean export it to some kind of .mb file that you will then use as an "animation rig" for testing animations?

 

I have not been able to find anything, including Deep Exploration, that will convert LightWave files to a Maya format without losing important information, such as weightmaps.

 

However, didn't Domarius say he was using 3DS? I'm pretty sure there is a good md5 importer for it.

 

Frankly, I'm surprised there isn't a decent importer for Maya, given that it is used so often for D3.

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well i guess if you add those new hands you'll have to re-export the model to the engine? I mentioned the skinning because if the model is exported from Maya it will probably have to be skin weighted again if the conversion doesn't work out.

 

Your now looking for a way to export the mesh and skeleton to Maya right? If it doesn't work out we'll have to export only the mesh to maya and in that case re-skin the model to an updated skeleton.

 

I also have a md5 importer for maya somewhere which i'm going to try.

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i've been able to import to the citywatch skeleton and mesh into maya using the md5 importer. I'm getting a headless body with no smoothing on the geometry but with the skin weighting intact. I'll sync this to svn -> in model_src/citywatch_mb/citywatch_sh.mb

 

Springheel one thing i'm curious about is how you setup the textures? The textures in the hypershade points to various local texture files which i can't seem to find in the darkmod folders, how do you set this up, do you also use skins?

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well i guess if you add those new hands you'll have to re-export the model to the engine?

 

Yes. I also have to get the citywatch set up to use the new animation sizes, and now that I've figured out how to fix those black areas on the tunic I'd like to do those as well.

 

I'll sync this to svn -> in model_src/citywatch_mb/citywatch_sh.mb

 

Hmm, is that a useful file for you? I don't want to switch between Lightwave and Maya if it's not absolutely necessary. Every importer/exporter has its little quirks, and the more often things are exported the more likely errors are to creep in. When I set out to make those changes to the citywatch, I'd rather work with my original LW files, which means that .mb file would again become out of date.

 

Springheel one thing i'm curious about is how you setup the textures? The textures in the hypershade points to various local texture files which i can't seem to find in the darkmod folders, how do you set this up, do you also use skins?

 

I have no idea how the hypershade works in Maya. When I import an md5mesh in LW, I have to set the name of each mesh manually to correspond to the right texture (and to make it more tricky, more than one mesh might need to point to the same texture, but you can't do this in a md5mesh file, so you have to create a dummy texture name and then create a skin entry).

 

Again, I don't know much about Maya, but what I like about LW is that the mesh and skeleton can be dealt with totally independently. I can take a character mesh and weight it to any skeleton I want--witness the new zombie I made, simply by taking the existing mesh and 'merging' it with a different skeleton. From what I was able to discover, in Maya I would have had to paint the weights entirely from scratch. That's why I'd prefer to use Lightwave for rigging issues.

 

I could probably be more help if I knew exactly what you were trying to do. Is this just to get a more accurate mesh to use for making animations? Are we thinking of actually changing the skeleton again?

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Actually i uploaded the file also for Domarius to look at since he mentioned he wanted to see if he could make some adjustments to the skeleton but as i understand your not finished editing.

 

You'll be first adding the new hands (joints+hand meshes) to the citywatch and probably some other changes to the mesh? If that's the case we'd better wait till your done and when you have exported your latest version take a look at it again.

 

I don't want to switch between Lightwave and Maya if it's not absolutely necessary. Every importer/exporter has its little quirks, and the more often things are exported the more likely errors are to creep in. When I set out to make those changes to the citywatch, I'd rather work with my original LW files, which means that .mb file would again become out of date.

 

For now it's just an extra step if we want to update the skeleton. Animators will only work with the animation rig, meaning latest skeleton + animation controls and don't have to think about the changes you make to the mesh once the rig changes are done.

 

I could probably be more help if I knew exactly what you were trying to do. Is this just to get a more accurate mesh to use for making animations? Are we thinking of actually changing the skeleton again?

 

The thing i still like to do is building a new skeleton with the exact same joints and better alignment. The mesh won't change that much i think other then fitting it to this skeleton which you need to do already with the new hands. I'll start myself doing some tests and see what works after you've finished your changes.

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You'll be first adding the new hands (joints+hand meshes) to the citywatch and probably some other changes to the mesh? If that's the case we'd better wait till your done and when you have exported your latest version take a look at it again.

 

I'll be adding the new hand meshes, but I don't change any of the joints. The other changes won't have any effect on the skeleton.

 

For now it's just an extra step if we want to update the skeleton. Animators will only work with the animation rig, meaning latest skeleton + animation controls and don't have to think about the changes you make to the mesh once the rig changes are done.

 

Yes, my understanding was that the mesh and the skeleton were essentially separate entities as far as workflow went. That's why I'm a little confused about you/Domarius needing the most recent mesh.

 

The thing i still like to do is building a new skeleton with the exact same joints and better alignment. The mesh won't change that much i think other then fitting it to this skeleton which you need to do already with the new hands. I'll start myself doing some tests and see what works after you've finished your changes.

 

Hmm. I was under the impression (after that thread with Oddity a few months ago) we weren't going to be making any significant changes to the skeleton; otherwise I wouldn't have resumed working on the md5meshes. If the skeleton is changed--even if all the joints have the same names--I have to manually re-export all the characters (more time-consuming than Maya). If the skeleton has changed in any significant way, I may have to modify the meshes to match as well. Any changes to the skeleton at this point would already mean having to re-export seven different characters (the 3 base size md5meshes, the 3 commoner md5meshes, and the builder guard). By the time I finish working on just the characters in the release map, that would grow to twelve, and it would go up from there.

 

Now, if we're just talking about making changes to the "animation rig", so that you guys have an easier time making animations, that (AFAIK) has no impact on the md5mesh at all.

 

I can't tell from what you're saying which one we're talking about, but we need to get this sorted out quickly. Modifying md5meshes is finicky, time-consuming, and not very fun--definitely not something I want to have to do more than once.

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Ah squill has the right idea.

 

Spring let me explain what we need again, sorry if I haven't been clear yet, there are a few things I've not mentioned yet.

 

 

Basically, if the citywatch lightwave file is currently exporting to the game, you need to upload it to model_src so we can continue animating. If it's in a half finished state and you're still re-rigging it or something, then we have to wait for you to finish.

 

Don't worry about skeleton changes - the changes I was talking about are just some additions to squill's maya file, which have no impact on the game because IK controls aren't exported to the game.

 

 

 

 

I think it would be a bad idea for squill and I to continue animating until the citywatch is re-weighted to the rig so that the body parts are properly centered around the joints.

 

I don't know what the version on your HDD is like, but the currently md5mesh that's been exported to the server is the same as what's in our maya files (and I can see this now thanks to squill exporting that md5mesh for me).

 

The arm bones are above the arms themselves, and the leg bones are riding down the insides of the legs. Not to mention the middle finger bone is bending down while the hand is actually going straight.

 

This explains all the hell I went through trying to animate the hands, and why the arms and legs just don't bend the way they should - some reasonable joint positions just look much worse than they should. Not only that, it takes longer to animate because you have to experiment to get the joints to look right.

 

If the weighting is fixed, it also means some of the animations might have to be re-done or tweaked. That's why there's no point going ahead and doing any more animations.

 

 

 

All other issues aside - there shouldn't have been an update to the citywatch.md5mesh on svn without an accompanying upload of the original lightwave source file to model_src, because this means you are the only one who can make changes.

 

I think this is a bad idea, because most issues with the way any mesh is rigged to the skeleton will only show up during animation work, so it would be a good idea if squill and I could help out with the rigging - by having access to the lightwave files so we can adjust the weighting directly in the lightwave file.

 

Exporting to md5mesh and then to maya is a one-way process purely so when we animate, the mesh in maya behaves the same as the one in the game. So there won't be any issues with the maya mesh getting out of sync or anything like that.

 

 

 

I hope the lightwave file is in a useable state, because I think it would be ideal if you upload it so I can re-rig it and get started animating, while you continue working on the St Lucia characters.

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One thing that's really bothering me about the skeleton - why IS the middle finger bent down in the rig? I could understand if both fingers were bent down, to give the mesh a chance of looking better when bent as opposed to straight, or vice versa... but one bent and the other straight? One will look good bent, and one will look good straight, and neither will be the same. Maybe it's not a huge issue but it's just odd that it's been this way for so long. Since you're switching the hands over from mitten to fingered, that would be a good time to fix it. Again, I don't mind taking on any of that work, I can use lightwave.

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One thing that's really bothering me about the skeleton - why IS the middle finger bent down in the rig? I could understand if both fingers were bent down, to give the mesh a chance of looking better when bent as opposed to straight, or vice versa... but one bent and the other straight?

 

I already answered this in the other thread, but it's that way because the skeleton was originally created for the full-fingered hands, which are bent the same way as the skeleton is.

 

The rest of the post will have to wait until tomorrow.

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Hm I figured you might not have time to read the whole thing right away so that's why I started out with that we need the lightwave model uploaded, and the rest is just why. You can't quickly do that yet? It's a shame cause I have a whole day free right now which I could be animating...

 

We should never upload exported models or animations without the source files.

 

BTW what Lightwave version are you using? I'm using 8.5, I have to make sure I'm using the same version as you so I can make changes.

 

We could give 3DS max a go, but I can't do anything until I have the lightwave file.

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Hm I figured you might not have time to read the whole thing right away so that's why I started out with that we need the lightwave model uploaded, and the rest is just why. You can't quickly do that yet? It's a shame cause I have a whole day free right now which I could be animating...

 

As I said, if you're using 3DS, you can just import the md5mesh file, which IS the most up to date version. Squill also has found a decent importer for Maya, apparently.

 

I don't know what the version on your HDD is like, but the currently md5mesh that's been exported to the server is the same as what's in our maya files (and I can see this now thanks to squill exporting that md5mesh for me).

 

If it was the correct md5mesh file, you should clearly see some differences, including a shoulder belt.

 

The changes I have to make to the mesh (fixing the tunic, adding the new hands, etc) are not trivial and will take a few days to finish, assuming I drop everything else I'm working on.

 

you need to upload it to model_src so we can continue animating. If it's in a half finished state and you're still re-rigging it or something, then we have to wait for you to finish.

 

This is the part I don't understand. You guys have been animating with the same mesh and skeleton for half a year or more. Several perfectly good animations were made AFTER my changes to the citywatch mesh. Why suddenly must all animation work stop until you get the updated mesh?

 

While it might be nice to center the citywatch exactly to the skeleton, that shouldn't be something that stops new animations from being made. Remember, this skeleton is no longer just the "citywatch skeleton", it's the base skeleton of ALL our characters. While modifying the animations to make them look good on the citywatch might improve the appearance of that character by 10% or so, it could easily make the builder guard and thief look 10% worse.

 

I've been centering the other characters around the base skeleton as I go, so I can fairly easily go back to the citywatch and make that change, and I'll see about adding the new hands as well. But no guarantees I'll finish it today.

 

In the meantime, you could always load the md5mesh of the commoner or builder guard, both of which already have the updated hands and use the same skeleton.

 

BTW what Lightwave version are you using? I'm using 8.5, I have to make sure I'm using the same version as you so I can make changes.

 

I'm using 8.0, though there's no reason we need to have the same version. Have you confirmed that clintonman's exporter works on 8.5?

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This is the part I don't understand. You guys have been animating with the same mesh and skeleton for half a year or more. Several perfectly good animations were made AFTER my changes to the citywatch mesh. Why suddenly must all animation work stop until you get the updated mesh?

 

I don't see why we should stop the animation work because of these rig changes, i'm certainly not. But i do think we can work on an update to improve the rig, again taking small steps at a time without breaking (too much :huh: ) things. This was also discussed earlier when Oddity became involved but we discontinued because a complete new rig(different joint names/hierarchy) would break the animation/mesh work.

 

I think the first thing we can do is simply add some ik hand controls on the citywatch rig. Quick and simple enough to give us some IK control. In the mean time looking at one of the md5 files(with new hands) and build a clean skeleton based on that rig for the citywatch. First only for the citywatch to see what happens when we import animations and the mesh. That's my global idea for now.

 

The only thing i'm nto familiar with is the exporting and use of the textures on the character. So either Springheel could export the mesh/skeleton properly form LW or we have to figure out how to export from Maya. But this is not important until we have build a new skeleton.

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This was also discussed earlier when Oddity became involved but we discontinued because a complete new rig(different joint names/hierarchy) would break the animation/mesh work.

 

Right. I think anything that will cause meshes/animations to be redone is out of the question at this stage. We're talking about trying to have a beta-release ready within 12 months--given that we average about one animation a month, it will be a major undertaking to get a half-decent version of all our needed animations by then. As soon as we start talking about making changes that require us to go back and 'tweak' existing animations, it becomes even LESS likely we'll be done.

 

At this point, IMO, all animation efforts should be going towards completing our master list with animations of at least "good" (not necessarily "great") quality. Anything that will help make that easier (like adding hand ik) is great. A new skeleton sounds like it would set us back considerably.

 

The only thing i'm nto familiar with is the exporting and use of the textures on the character. So either Springheel could export the mesh/skeleton properly form LW or we have to figure out how to export from Maya

 

Exporting animations can be done with Maya just as they always have been. But the md5meshes need to be exported from LW from now on...Maya is very finicky about the joints it exports, and will often cull ones that are not attached to a mesh. LW doesn't do that. I can handle the exporting no problem for both animations (as long as I can get the .mb version) and meshes.

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I think my post was too long and a lot of things got missed, or mis-interpreted.

 

But none of it's really important now - the problem was that if I animate using the city watch mesh as it is (not centered around) then it will look good for the citywatch and crap on a mesh that has been centered around it properly, like the ones you're re-doing. Also I spent ages hacking motion on those hands for the warm hands anim, it's an unessecary waste of time when the problem is so easily fixed. I'd do it myself but I don't have the source files - which really really should be in models_src like all our other model source files.

 

The main thing is - if the commoner and builder are centered around the skeleton better, and are representative of how all the final meshes will behave, that will solve everything I think. I'll try and import those.

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I'd do it myself but I don't have the source files - which really really should be in models_src like all our other model source files.

Domarius, if I got Springheel right the MD5MESH is the most recent version. He's just using Lightwave to edit that file.

 

As I said, if you're using 3DS, you can just import the md5mesh file, which IS the most up to date version.
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Well that assumption was lost on me - I am used to always losing something in the export process :) So I thought he meant a one-way import, as a visual aid. Which is all I need for animating.

 

But he's in the middle of a big update, and is about to overwrite the file with his version, so I can't make any changes myself, which is what I was proposing earlier.

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But none of it's really important now - the problem was that if I animate using the city watch mesh as it is (not centered around) then it will look good for the citywatch and crap on a mesh that has been centered around it properly, like the ones you're re-doing.

 

I've already centered the other characters around the skeleton. And I've tested the animations thoroughly. With one or two specific exceptions, they look great. You really don't need to worry about how things look on the other characters--I'm taking that into careful consideration as I do the work converting them.

 

I will be able to upload an updated citywatch mesh later today, with the new hands, and which is better centered around the skeleton. There will still be further changes to be made to the mesh--the shadowmesh needs some work, but that should not have any impact on making animations.

 

So I thought he meant a one-way import, as a visual aid. Which is all I need for animating.

 

Uh, yeah. :huh:

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Ok, after spending several hours on this, I've uploaded a new citywatch md5mesh. It isn't complete yet but it should be enough to use for animation. I did the following:

 

1. Centered the limbs over the skeleton a little more than they were. Centering them completely just made the old animations look bad, and I can't see any point in ruining perfectly good animations when we still have so much to do.

 

2. Added the full-finger hands. They are pretty much centered over the skeleton, but I could not center them perfectly without shortening the arms too much.

 

3. Fixed the black areas on the arms and tunic

 

4. Tweaked the shadowmesh, though it needs more.

 

There are almost certainly other things to fix, as I didn't have a lot of time to test the results.

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Uh, yeah. :huh:
Please don't quote people out of context.

 

It's great that you've spent so much time on the meshes, I don't think there's a single person on the team that doesn't recognise just how much you've single handedly improved the character model situation in recent times, after the sudden departure of oDDity, and then ascottk.

 

 

But regarding centering them around the skeleton, I ask you to think of the bigger picture.

 

It's trivial to tweak the animations using animation layers, when the only problem is offset limbs, which is what centering the mesh around the skeleton will be.

 

But the main thing is - we are developing a toolset that will be the foundation of HUNDREDS of high quality fan missions - what is re-doing a few animations compared to all that? Especially when we have so many other animations to do.

 

 

 

I'll prove how easy it is to re-tweak the anims. I'll import the md5mesh and re-center it myself, then I'll re-tweak the most difficult animation - the walk cycle. Using animation layers, it's a simple task to offset the limbs over the ENTIRE duration of the animation just on the first keyframe in a new layer, I do it all the time on my existing animations. And if that works, I volunteer to center the rest of the meshes around the skeletons myself, and tweak all the old animations. I'll even work entire weekends at the expense of my social life. That's how much I believe in the project.

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My 2 cents: If there is a change to be made which basically implies that you need to spent long weekends just to reach to the current state again, this would be a huge waste of animation time. I'd rather see the time spent on the remaining animations, instead of re-iterating over the existing ones.

 

And what about afterwards - don't you think you'll just burn yourself out on that task? I (and others) around here can only judge basing on the time you could spend on the mod in the last two years, which hasn't been that much (no offense meant, but that's the fact).

 

Also are we sure, that if you're aligning the citywatch, what impact this will have on the other characters?

 

If you're really adamant about doing this change on your own, no one can really stop you, but these changes should not go into the SVN main branch unless each and every animation is working just as well as before. Otherwise we run the risk of having a properly aligned mesh and a bunch of broken animations, which is not acceptable right now. However, you could open a new SVN branch for your undertaking, if you're 100% serious about pulling this through.

 

I still think it would be a waste of precious animation time.

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to me centering the mesh is not one of the big issues. I've already expressed to Springheel that the alignment and orientation of the joints is a bigger issue for me when i'm animating or when i want to adjust the rig.

 

We've agreed to build a new skeleton which Springheel will test by replacing it in his LW rig file. I'll have this skeleton finished this weekend, then we can see what the impact of mesh and animation sharing will be.

 

If it doesn't work out or takes too much effort to update before any release we can always continue with what we currently have.

 

It's trivial to tweak the animations using animation layers, when the only problem is offset limbs, which is what centering the mesh around the skeleton will be.

 

Offset limbs can be adjusted by moving the proper curves in the graph editor. I don't see this as being big time consuming tweaks. It would be another thing if the joints postitions would totally change.

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There are **40** animations on our master list that we do not have even placeholder animations for. This isn't counting animations that we wanted multiple versions of, like a serious and casual walk.

 

It's already obvious that we won't be able to accomplish all those by next year when we'd like to release TDM1.0. Making changes that force us to redo the few animations we have that are actually finalized means we'll make even LESS progress. That makes zero sense to me.

 

Domarius, I could make a list of tasks in the past six months that you said you were going to take on but haven't had time. Now suddenly you're going to have time to redo what several people have done over the past year or more, AND the other work you offered to do (like final versions of the combat animations)? Forgive me if I have a hard time believing that's going to happen.

 

As greebo said, no one can stop you if that's what you want to do, but you'll need to make a separate branch on SVN to do it.

 

In the meantime, I'll test Squill's new skeleton and we can judge the cost/benefit of replacing the current one.

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re: new skeleton

 

i pretty sure that won't work because when i did some exporting it said af_pose was using a different # of joints. But the af_pose + the animations have to be -re-exported anyway if we are going to use this skeleton. Some extra joints i believe were necessary for the motion capture anims but some like the ones on the knees and in the arms could be left out.

 

I thought you were going to keep the number of joints the same? Otherwise, we not only have to fix and re-export all the animations, but I have to manually reweight all the md5meshes. If an md5mesh references a joint name that doesn't exist, D3 will crash. The old joint has to be removed from the weightmap, and the verts then have to be reweighted to an appropriate existing joint.

 

There's also the issue that re-exporting the animations with a different number of joints will require changing the -keep options in the .def files, something I would have to do some research on before knowing exactly what changes need to be made.

 

The ones in the fingers could be handy for weighting the end of the fingers and the number of joints in the current rig are uneven. The RightHandMiddle finger (called LefHandRing for left) missed an end joint.

 

There's definitely no need for a 4th joint in the fingers...as it is, the third joint only has influence over the very tip of the fingers. The LetHandRing4 joint that exists in the current citywatch is not weighted to anything.

 

ok if this is not too much for you i'd rather keep it this way to keep things clear. This skeleton will most definitely force you to adjust the meshes even more, like fitting the arms and legs. Do you think it's going to be a lot of work?

 

Well, there are currrently seven meshes I'd have to modify. Just moving the mesh around does not take as long as reweighting verts does. It would probably take about half and hour per mesh to move them to fit, assuming there were no problems (which is rare). Renaming and reweighting the verts could add another hour or more per mesh.

 

btw i'd like to know when you import this skeleton in LW what happens to the rotation values on the joints

 

If you've saved it as an md5mesh then I should be able to open it in LW. How would I tell what the rotation values are?

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re: new skeleton

I thought you were going to keep the number of joints the same? Otherwise, we not only have to re-export all the animations, but I have to manually reweight all the md5meshes. Re-exporting the animations will also require changing the -keep options in the .def files, something I don't really understand well at the moment.

 

yes that was my assumption until i compared the lastest version with the version i was animating. If they are not needed i can remove those extra joints as well. I can understand the knee dummies and finger/arm joints are unnecessary but it looked to me inconsistent to have an extra joint on the left finger but none on the right. But to keep it as close to our current skeleton i'll remove these.

There's definitely no need for a 4th joint in the fingers...as it is, the third joint only has influence over the very tip of the fingers. The LetHandRing4 joint that exists in the current citywatch is not weighted to anything.
that's what i though.

 

Well, there are currrently seven meshes I'd have to modify. It depends how much moving and renaming I'd have to do, but I would guess at least an hour for each, including the time it takes to export and test the changes. But I thought you weren't going to change the basic position of the bones very much?

 

i will only remove those extra joints and in terms of placement it should stay the same as the skeleton i uploaded. The only difference will be that every limb is straight and rotations on joints are (hopefully in LW) set to zero compared to the current skeleton.

 

How would I tell what the rotation values are?

 

by selecting the joints and looking at their rotation values on bottom menu in Layout.

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