Cathedral i've been working on...

[AluminumHaste]

This engine can handle a lot of polys

Man I'm really tired so if any of this looks right, then I'll be pleased. Any suggestions are welcome. (In case you are wondering, the player starts at the ceiling through an open window)

 

View from ceiling (Vertex ON)

 

Another view from ceiling (Vertex ON)

 

View from behind priest on altar, looking out at the empty pews, practicing his sermons (Vertex ON)

 

Same view (Vertex OFF)

 

Viewpoint of Priest (Vertex OFF)

 

View of the floor compass and surrounding pool

 

View of on of the side entrances to the cathedral

 

Just an updated video walkthrough, make sure to watch in at least 720p or the video will be too dark:

 

[Crispy]

Yikes, that is a lot of polys! Just out of curiosity, I wouldn't mind seeing a count, if there's some way to get Doom 3 to display the number of polygons in view. (I don't recommend counting them manually...)

 

I assume all those lights are non-shadowcasting, otherwise it would probably cause the average computer to explode. What are your specs and what FPS are you getting?

 

The architecture looks great. The lighting and texturing could use some work. You may not be able to do too much in the way of lighting with all those polys, of course.

[Komag]

Looks great, but yeah it's not looking like you're going to be able to light it well, so it's all just sitting in the dark, drab and unappreciated

[AluminumHaste]

Looks great, but yeah it's not looking like you're going to be able to light it well, so it's all just sitting in the dark, drab and unappreciated

 

All lights in those screens are shadow casting and it's running at 1920x1200 with 8XAF and 8XAA at around 20-50fps depending on where you are.

 

My specs? Well;

 

Dell XPS M1730 (Laptop)

2x GeForce 8400M GS @ 600/800

Core 2 Duo @ 2.4Ghz

2x 200GB 7200RPM 16MB HDD

4GB DDR2 800MHz

17" screen @ 1920x1200x60hz

[SneaksieDave]

Is that honestly 300 pews? Holy macaroni. It's the superbowl of faith!

[Komag]

but I said light it "well". Right now there are just a bunch of little tiny dots of light. It needs big giant lights falling at an angle on the columns, streaming in from stained glass windows, beaming up from strong torches, something. The whole place is lost in shadow, you can't see anything. It looks like it could be extremely awesome, I just hope that with proper lighting it doesn't bog down into unplayability. You might try some non shadow casting larger lights, done right they can work well.

[AluminumHaste]

but I said light it "well". Right now there are just a bunch of little tiny dots of light. It needs big giant lights falling at an angle on the columns, streaming in from stained glass windows, beaming up from strong torches, something. The whole place is lost in shadow, you can't see anything. It looks like it could be extremely awesome, I just hope that with proper lighting it doesn't bog down into unplayability. You might try some non shadow casting larger lights, done right they can work well.

 

Oh yeah, question about parallel lights; how do you get them to change direction? I'd love you have moonlight streaming in from the windows onto the pews, but right now I can't figure out how to work them properly. And I checked the wiki but am having trouble finding much.

Edited April 24, 2008 by AluminumHaste

[greebo]

Oh yeah, question about parallel lights; how do you get them to change direction? I'd love you have moonlight streaming in from the windows onto the pews, but right now I can't figure out how to work them properly. And I checked the wiki but am having trouble finding much.

You need to drag the light center vertex away from the volume center (light origin). Select the light, switch to vertex mode and drag the green dot around. The vector from that light_center vertex to the light origin defines the direction. It doesn't matter how far away the vertex is, btw, only the direction counts.

[ZylonBane]

Is that honestly 300 pews? Holy macaroni. It's the superbowl of faith!

It's the difference between a "cathedral" and a "church".

[AluminumHaste]

You need to drag the light center vertex away from the volume center (light origin). Select the light, switch to vertex mode and drag the green dot around. The vector from that light_center vertex to the light origin defines the direction. It doesn't matter how far away the vertex is, btw, only the direction counts.

 

Okay I made a small test map and made a single parallel light, and entered vertex mode to drag the center vertex over to the side. I then dmapped and went into the map and....everything is black.

WTF??

 

Oh btw, using DarkRadiant v0.9.7 pre 1, I'll try 096 instead and see if that makes a difference.

[AluminumHaste]

K nope, it's still all black, wth am I doing wrong?

Here's a screengrab of the map in radiant:

 

And in game:

Edited April 24, 2008 by AluminumHaste

[SneaksieDave]

It's the difference between a "cathedral" and a "church".

I was thinking more along lines of "playable" and "not." Though, I'm not assuming; I'm interested to hear how it performs as well.

[AluminumHaste]

I was thinking more along lines of "playable" and "not." Though, I'm not assuming; I'm interested to hear how it performs as well.

 

I already posted how well it performs in it's current state with just 94 lights and an ambient and fog. I want to put in a parallel light, but they don't work when running the map.

[SneaksieDave]

I'm not trying to come down on it, just so you're aware. Not at all, in fact I posted because I am interested. It's not in final state of course, which might say a lot, plus you posted semi-monstrous machine specs. So I guess I should say, "I'm interested in how it will perform, and on average systems."

[Komag]

You'll want the dot above the origin, as it represents the direction the light will come FROM. I think the regular biground has problems, I use TDMbiground (or something like that). Wait a minute, I think actually that's not the problem - the thing with parallel lights is that if they are shadow casting they think they hit the wall and cast a massive shadow. Make the part that is the light source direction not be outside the map walls, so that the light can start up there and not get blocked.

[AluminumHaste]

You'll want the dot above the origin, as it represents the direction the light will come FROM. I think the regular biground has problems, I use TDMbiground (or something like that). Wait a minute, I think actually that's not the problem - the thing with parallel lights is that if they are shadow casting they think they hit the wall and cast a massive shadow. Make the part that is the light source direction not be outside the map walls, so that the light can start up there and not get blocked.

 

Oh on the Doom3 forums they said that parallel lights should be at least twice the size of the map link

 

Relevant part: This also tends to make parallel lights dimmer than their point light counterparts, so you often need to increase the physical size a parallel light's volume well outside the area of a map you want to influence in order to get an equivalent brightness to that of a point light. Keep this in mind when designing maps that have outdoor and indoor areas, you need to keep and eye on light volume overlaps.

[Komag]

I have some good working moonlights in my map, but I can't remember exactly how they are, let me check them...

 

 

...I'm using "tdmnofalloff" as the texture. Ignore what they say; when you use the tdmnofalloff it will be evenly bright all over.

 

I have some that extend outside the walls, but those walls are caulk on the outside and skybox on the inside so they don't block the light. Anywhere there is an actual wall it will block the light (which is what I want, for the buildings to cast shadows, etc) since it's parallel and comes from the far edge of the light size you set in the direction of the dot, not the center like with other lights.

[AluminumHaste]

I have some good working moonlights in my map, but I can't remember exactly how they are, let me check them...

...I'm using "tdmnofalloff" as the texture. Ignore what they say; when you use the tdmnofalloff it will be evenly bright all over.

 

I have some that extend outside the walls, but those walls are caulk on the outside and skybox on the inside so they don't block the light. Anywhere there is an actual wall it will block the light (which is what I want, for the buildings to cast shadows, etc) since it's parallel and comes from the far edge of the light size you set in the direction of the dot, not the center like with other lights.

 

 

Okay this is fucking stupid, parallel lights are the most unintuitive things to use with this toolset. How does this:

 

Correspond to this:

 

?????

[Crispy]

I haven't used them before, but just a guess: What texture are you using for the outside of the level (the polygons that face the void)? Perhaps you need to use caulk, as Komag implied. (Edit: Komag says the texture doesn't matter. Doubtless he knows what he's talking about. ) If that's a parallel light, and judging by the advice already given in this thread, it may be that the ceiling is casting a shadow over the entire area that the light is supposed to illuminate.

 

Or, try moving the top boundary of the light so it's inside the level geometry.

 

Or, try turning shadow-casting off on that light.

 

DarkRadiant probably doesn't render parallel lights properly, so don't expect the in-editor results to match the in-game results.

[Komag]

I admit they are a bit confusing at first, but just relax a bit there! I see what's happening and I'll try to explain.

 

First of all, the preview render in DR doesn't show any cast shadows. What's happening when you go in game is that the shadows are now working and your whole area is in shadow. That's because with parallel lights you have to consider the source of the light to be the edge of the light box (the edge that's in the direction you moved the dot), not the center of the light box. I see that your light box stretches outside your room on all sides. The part that matters is the side(s) the dot's pointing to - they can't be outside (unless the wall isn't solid, such as portal_sky).

 

Just try this - in that screenshot, use the Z/X view and pull the top of the light down so the top edge is just inside the room and pull the right side in as well the same way. Then test it again in game to see.

 

EDIT - in response to Crispy - you don't need to care about the outside texture, since the engine will just treat it all like caulk no matter what. (So when building in DR, you can just leave outside textures and don't have to bother making everything caulk). Yes, it's the ceiling and wall that's casting a big shadow over the whole room. Turning off shadow casting on the light would work, but you probably want it on so it casts shadows from the pillars correctly.

[AluminumHaste]

I admit they are a bit confusing at first, but just relax a bit there! I see what's happening and I'll try to explain.

 

First of all, the preview render in DR doesn't show any cast shadows. What's happening when you go in game is that the shadows are now working and your whole area is in shadow. That's because with parallel lights you have to consider the source of the light to be the edge of the light box (the edge that's in the direction you moved the dot), not the center of the light box. I see that your light box stretches outside your room on all sides. The part that matters is the side(s) the dot's pointing to - they can't be outside (unless the wall isn't solid, such as portal_sky).

 

Just try this - in that screenshot, use the Z/X view and pull the top of the light down so the top edge is just inside the room and pull the right side in as well the same way. Then test it again in game to see.

 

EDIT - in response to Crispy - you don't need to care about the outside texture, since the engine will just treat it all like caulk no matter what. (So when building in DR, you can just leave outside textures and don't have to bother making everything caulk). Yes, it's the ceiling and wall that's casting a big shadow over the whole room. Turning off shadow casting on the light would work, but you probably want it on so it casts shadows from the pillars correctly.

 

Yes yes and yes, this should be added to the wiki this moment. Very good explanation thank you. I will go try that right now.

 

EDIT: Okay, tried that and the level is still black. I deleted the light and remade it and this time just left it at default. When I went into the level it worked, but was really small. So I went into the editor and made it 16 units smaller than the inside of the walls. Then went back in game and the light output did not change at all. Hmmm. See if you can make a difference, here's the map file:

 

Version 2
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"classname" "worldspawn"
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"editor_drLastCameraAngle" "9.9 75.3 0"
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"editor_drMapAngle1" "0 4.7 0"
"editor_drMapPos2" "856 856 194.506"
"editor_drMapAngle2" "0 -88.6028 0"
"editor_drMapPos3" "832 264 194.506"
"editor_drMapAngle3" "0 82.1467 0"
"editor_drMapPos4" "462.987 512.708 197.518"
"editor_drMapAngle4" "-2.8 151.047 0"
"editor_drMapPos5" "395.633 301.73 201.855"
"editor_drMapAngle5" "-2.6 187.447 0"
"editor_drMapPos6" "406.528 296.563 56.6098"
"editor_drMapAngle6" "-4 187.247 0"
"editor_drMapPos7" "952.822 285.005 1366.04"
"editor_drMapAngle7" "-74.8 149.373 0"
"editor_drMapPos8" "976 424 320"
"editor_drMapAngle8" "-3 15.3467 0"
"editor_drMapPos9" "409.146 547.464 392.83"
"editor_drMapAngle9" "-16.8 284.947 0"
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( 1 0 0 -520 ) ( ( 0.03125 0 0 ) ( 0 0.03125 0 ) ) "textures/common/caulk" 0 0 0
( 0 0 -1 -0 ) ( ( 0.03125 0 0 ) ( 0 0.03125 0.25 ) ) "textures/common/caulk" 0 0 0
( 0 -1 0 -512 ) ( ( 0.03125 0 63.75 ) ( 0 0.03125 0 ) ) "textures/common/caulk" 0 0 0
( -1 0 0 512 ) ( ( 0.00390625 0 0 ) ( 0 0.00390625 0 ) ) "textures/darkmod/stone/brick/grainy_blocks01" 0 0 0
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brushDef3
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( 1 0 0 -512 ) ( ( 0.03125 0 0 ) ( 0 0.03125 63.75 ) ) "textures/common/caulk" 0 0 0
( 0 0 -1 -8 ) ( ( 0.03125 0 0 ) ( 0 0.03125 0 ) ) "textures/common/caulk" 0 0 0
( 0 -1 0 -512 ) ( ( 0.03125 0 0 ) ( 0 0.03125 63.75 ) ) "textures/common/caulk" 0 0 0
( -1 0 0 -512 ) ( ( 0.03125 0 0 ) ( 0 0.03125 63.75 ) ) "textures/common/caulk" 0 0 0
( 0 0 1 -0 ) ( ( 0.00390625 0 0 ) ( 0 0.00390625 0 ) ) "textures/darkmod/stone/brick/grainy_blocks01" 0 0 0
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( 0 0 -1 -0 ) ( ( 0.03125 0 0.25 ) ( 0 0.03125 0 ) ) "textures/common/caulk" 0 0 0
( 0 -1 0 -520 ) ( ( 0.03125 0 0 ) ( 0 0.03125 0 ) ) "textures/common/caulk" 0 0 0
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( 0 0 -1 -0 ) ( ( 0.03125 0 0 ) ( 0 0.03125 63.75 ) ) "textures/common/caulk" 0 0 0
( 0 -1 0 -512 ) ( ( 0.03125 0 0.25 ) ( 0 0.03125 0 ) ) "textures/common/caulk" 0 0 0
( -1 0 0 -520 ) ( ( 0.03125 0 0 ) ( 0 0.03125 0 ) ) "textures/common/caulk" 0 0 0
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// primitive 6
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( 1 0 0 -64 ) ( ( 0.00390625 0 -0 ) ( -0 0.00390625 0 ) ) "textures/darkmod/stone/brick/grainy_blocks01" 0 0 0
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( -0 1 0 192 ) ( ( 0.00390625 0 -0 ) ( -0 0.00390625 0 ) ) "textures/darkmod/stone/brick/grainy_blocks01" 0 0 0
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( 0 1 0 -160 ) ( ( 0.00390625 0 0 ) ( 0 0.00390625 0 ) ) "textures/darkmod/stone/brick/grainy_blocks01" 0 0 0
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( -1 0 0 -64 ) ( ( 0.00390625 0 1.375 ) ( 0 0.00390625 0 ) ) "textures/darkmod/stone/brick/grainy_blocks01" 0 0 0
( -0.7071067811865476 -0.7071067811865476 0 4.242640687119363 ) ( ( 0.00390625 0 0.9722718241315029 ) ( 0 0.00390625 0 ) ) "textures/darkmod/stone/brick/grainy_blocks01" 0 0 0
( 0 -1 0 32 ) ( ( 0.00390625 0 0 ) ( 0 0.00390625 0 ) ) "textures/darkmod/stone/brick/grainy_blocks01" 0 0 0
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( 0 1 0 -448 ) ( ( 0.00390625 0 0 ) ( 0 0.00390625 0 ) ) "textures/darkmod/stone/brick/grainy_blocks01" 0 0 0
( -0.7071067811865476 0.7071067811865476 0 -335.1686142824237 ) ( ( 0.00390625 0 1.767766952966369 ) ( 0 0.00390625 0 ) ) "textures/darkmod/stone/brick/grainy_blocks01" 0 0 0
( -1 0 0 -64 ) ( ( 0.00390625 0 2.5 ) ( 0 0.00390625 0 ) ) "textures/darkmod/stone/brick/grainy_blocks01" 0 0 0
( -0.7071067811865476 -0.7071067811865476 0 207.8893936688451 ) ( ( 0.00390625 0 1.767766952966369 ) ( 0 0.00390625 0 ) ) "textures/darkmod/stone/brick/grainy_blocks01" 0 0 0
( 0 -1 0 320 ) ( ( 0.00390625 0 0 ) ( 0 0.00390625 0 ) ) "textures/darkmod/stone/brick/grainy_blocks01" 0 0 0
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}
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}
// entity 1
{
"classname" "info_player_start"
"name" "info_player_start_1"
"origin" "-384 -384 0"
// dummy brush 0
{
brushDef3
{
( 0 0 -1 0 ) ( ( 0.125 0 0 ) ( 0 0.125 0 ) ) "_default" 0 0 0
( 0 0 1 -8 ) ( ( 0.125 0 0 ) ( 0 0.125 0 ) ) "_default" 0 0 0
( 0 -1 0 -16 ) ( ( 0.125 0 0 ) ( 0 0.125 0 ) ) "_default" 0 0 0
( 1 0 0 -16 ) ( ( 0.125 0 0 ) ( 0 0.125 0 ) ) "_default" 0 0 0
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( -1 0 0 -16 ) ( ( 0.125 0 0 ) ( 0 0.125 0 ) ) "_default" 0 0 0
}
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}
// entity 2
{
"classname" "light"
"name" "light_1"
"_color" "1.00 1.00 1.00"
"light_center" "0 0 0"
"light_radius" "496 496 496"
"nodiffuse" "0"
"noshadows" "0"
"nospecular" "0"
"origin" "0 0 512"
"parallel" "1"
}

 

Try it compile it just like that and see what it looks like in game. For me it looks like this:

Edited April 25, 2008 by AluminumHaste

[AluminumHaste]

K I figured it out thanks Komag, now; GO WRITE THAT TUTORIAL ON THE WIKI!!!! lol

 

Umm, getting weird errors with the lights, looks like portals are causing rendering errors.

Edited April 25, 2008 by AluminumHaste

[SneaksieDave]

@AluminumHaste: Are you still working on this by chance? I realized I hadn't tried it yet with my new card, and well holy cripes, it actually runs. I'm not sure whether it's the func_statics or the lighting (nothing overlapping except of course the ambient), but this place actually works. I'm getting 20-30 FPS. Place is friggin' enormous. Mine arse to anyone who suggests Doom3 can't do big open areas with lots of polys. I definitely think you should not abandon it (if you have).

 

(A bunch of textures were missing so I (locally) replaced them to get it to compile to check it out.)

[AluminumHaste]

@AluminumHaste: Are you still working on this by chance? I realized I hadn't tried it yet with my new card, and well holy cripes, it actually runs. I'm not sure whether it's the func_statics or the lighting (nothing overlapping except of course the ambient), but this place actually works. I'm getting 20-30 FPS. Place is friggin' enormous. Mine arse to anyone who suggests Doom3 can't do big open areas with lots of polys. I definitely think you should not abandon it (if you have).

 

(A bunch of textures were missing so I (locally) replaced them to get it to compile to check it out.)

 

Hmmm quick question; how did you get the map file? Did I upload it somewhere? I can't find it locally lol.

No I didn't abandon it, just got sidetracked with new ideas, like the cave with the giant tree in it and the big valley full of trees. I don't mind you playing with it at all. It was going to be part of a larger mission, kinda like life of the party but on the ground, where you go through a city streets/cave/sewers and wind up climbing the cathedral to get in the grate at the top.

[Springheel]

Holy crap! Now that should definitely be a showcase image on our screenshot page!!