Dark Mod Website: May Update Discussion

[New Horizon]

New update for may 2008 on www.thedarkmod.com

[Vadrosaul]

Man, those are some pretty square hairlines

 

The elevator AI functionality looks good, but is there no collision detection between their finger & the button? Looks odd pointing in mid-air.

 

The rats look excellent. I doubt this is important at all, but it makes me wonder: Are you going to include any cat & mouse interaction? Or is that something too low on the list, something that modders will need to include AI scripting for themselves?

[greebo]

The elevator AI functionality looks good, but is there no collision detection between their finger & the button? Looks odd pointing in mid-air.

That's just a general "use" animation the AI is playing, it doesn't provide any feedback to the AI yet. Of course, we have a lot of plans to improve this first incarnation of "elevator awareness", as this is just the beginning - for now we are following the 80:20 rule.

[New Horizon]

Man, those are some pretty square hairlines

 

The elevator AI functionality looks good, but is there no collision detection between their finger & the button? Looks odd pointing in mid-air.

 

Come on now Vadrosaul. Of all things....collision between finger and button? That's hardly high priority. The AI still have a lot of work needed before they're finished, and elevators are quite honestly a bonus I hadn't even expected us to get ingame. AI don't reach out and grab door handles either, it's just not feasible.

 

The rats look excellent. I doubt this is important at all, but it makes me wonder: Are you going to include any cat & mouse interaction? Or is that something too low on the list.....

 

What do you think?

[Vadrosaul]

That's just a general "use" animation the AI is playing, it doesn't provide any feedback to the AI yet. Of course, we have a lot of plans to improve this first incarnation of "elevator awareness", as this is just the beginning - for now we are following the 80:20 rule.

That's what I was expecting. Thanks for the response

 

Has the elevator AI interaction been tested with different alert states? Will a highly-alerted AI keep it's alert state, and not have it broken or sent back to a regular patrol state, after completing the elevator circuit in search for the player character they've spotted?

[greebo]

Has the elevator AI interaction been tested with different alert states?

Yes, it has. Angua and me considered these implications in our designs from the very beginning.

 

Will a highly-alerted AI keep it's alert state, and not have it broken or sent back to a regular patrol state, after completing the elevator circuit in search for the player character they've spotted?

The elevator handling is separated from the AI state/alertness. Just operating an elevator doesn't change an AI's state, of course.

 

However, it doesn't always work in all state/task combinations so far, that's what I'm currently working on as I type. As with doors, the original AI code couldn't handle such complex "intermediate" movement tasks like opening doors or operating switches to reach a goal, that became possible after we introduced this State/Subsystem framework. At any rate, I expected these kind of glitches, as our AI system is quite complex, but I expect to get it stable very soon.

 

In case you're interested in the TDM's AI framework, I've put the basic concepts on our wiki: http://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php/AI_Framework

[New Horizon]

Strange, but our videos seem to be down on google video.

[Tels]

Strange, but our videos seem to be down on google video.

 

Send me the files or a link to them and I host them for you.

[Springheel]

Strange, but our videos seem to be down on google video.

 

I added another small clip to the movie; it should be back up now.

[Tels]

I added another small clip to the movie; it should be back up now.

 

Can we get please some link to an .avi or .mpg? I can't access google video, and have generally problems playing .flv "movies". (not to mention the bad quality from their obsessment with re-encoding stuff...)

[nobody]

This is really cool, and is going to bring the play of TDM to a whole new level Thief never managed. I can't tell you the times I used a ladder or elevator to foil guards. will guards be able to climb ladders too? I think it would be really awesome to have guards be able to go anywhere that doesn't require mantling.

the rats are great and that SHADOW! sweet! once again you guys are bringing the goods. excellent work yet again, keep it up we are all waiting anxiously for the day when it is done. little tid-bits like this help me stay strong through the wait.

[New Horizon]

This is really cool, and is going to bring the play of TDM to a whole new level Thief never managed. I can't tell you the times I used a ladder or elevator to foil guards. will guards be able to climb ladders too? I think it would be really awesome to have guards be able to go anywhere that doesn't require mantling.

 

Whoa, whoa. Slow down.

 

No, guards will not be able to climb ladders. What you see in the video is what you get. Take a moment to think through what you just saw! You saw a guard step onto a platform and travel up or down. This wasn't an easy task to achieve, but it was easier than ladders. Elevators don't require a special set of animations to pull off....nor do they introduce a host of other issues. Elevators did require modifying/ extending the AI's path finding abilities....it was a lot of work for Greebo and Angua. It's essentially a moving set of stairs.

 

Ladders would require a LOT more work and is far beyond the scope of our Mod.

 

 

the rats are great and that SHADOW! sweet! once again you guys are bringing the goods. excellent work yet again, keep it up we are all waiting anxiously for the day when it is done. little tid-bits like this help me stay strong through the wait.

 

Thanks.

[Springheel]

You can do a search for "ladders" if you're interested in the reasons why we aren't doing them--the topic comes up every couple of months.

[slavatrumpevitch]

in thief, pressing an elevator button would instantly affect the elevator, even if it was already moving somewhere else, while most elevators in real life will go in the most efficient route to all of the requested 'stops.' which do you plan to use in TDM? or are both possible?

 

secondly, if you use standard Thief usage of elevators (pressing the button immediately makes the elevator stop what it was doing, and do what the most recent command instructed) will AI be able to use this to their advantage? i.e. if you're making a getaway and attempt to flee via an elevator, can the guard essentially go "Oh, no you don't!" and press the call button to bring you back to the eagerly awaiting guard?

[Domarius]

Well the elevator works by a combination of magic and steam, so we can easily define its limiting characteristics in a scientific manner

 

I'd say it's going to be a basic elevator like in every other game. You press a button, it goes to that floor.

[greebo]

in thief, pressing an elevator button would instantly affect the elevator, even if it was already moving somewhere else, while most elevators in real life will go in the most efficient route to all of the requested 'stops.' which do you plan to use in TDM? or are both possible?

In principle both are possible, but the current elevators just do what you told them. I don't think there is much to be gained in terms of gameplay when the elevators behave like some modern one in real life.

 

secondly, if you use standard Thief usage of elevators (pressing the button immediately makes the elevator stop what it was doing, and do what the most recent command instructed) will AI be able to use this to their advantage? i.e. if you're making a getaway and attempt to flee via an elevator, can the guard essentially go "Oh, no you don't!" and press the call button to bring you back to the eagerly awaiting guard?

Yes, that's my plan. Not yet coded in, but I can do that rather easily, methinks. Alternatively, if a walkpath is available, they might as well outrun you by running up the stairs, awaiting you at the top.

[saxmeister]

Excellent job, guys! I am constantly amazed at the programming talents on this MOD.

[Ishtvan]

Will the player be able to use stairs in the event of a fire?

[New Horizon]

Will the player be able to use stairs in the event of a fire?

 

Good question Ishtvan. That's certainly something we hadn't anticipated, and I think our coders should be reprimanded for not having their thinking caps on straight! We'll settle this issue in the private forums!!!!

[DrSpock]

I don't think the player would want to steal from a building with such massive safety and building code violations anyway.

[Crispy]

Understanding the Building Code: A Guide for the Responsible Thief. On sale now!

[Argoon]

In principle both are possible, but the current elevators just do what you told them. I don't think there is much to be gained in terms of gameplay when the elevators behave like some modern one in real life.

 

 

Yes, that's my plan. Not yet coded in, but I can do that rather easily, methinks. Alternatively, if a walkpath is available, they might as well outrun you by running up the stairs, awaiting you at the top.

 

No elevators don't work that way, when you have someone using a elevator and you press the button it will not stop is movement and come down again, what it does is, it finishes is last work, that is bring up the person and them it will go down to do the second request.

 

IMO it is more realistic this way and more fare to the player, is not cool if you are half the way up and them a guard presses a button and you have no way to escape but face the guard, again IMO is better that the guard waits for the elevator to come down and them go up to chase the player or if the are some stairs he can use them to try to catch the player as he goes out of the elevator.

 

And if you want to make it even more realistic you can make some kind of system that if the guard is far from the player as it enters in a elevator but near some stairs you could teleport it to the upper floor, make it in a way that the player don't see the teleportation and do not make it a instant one, make some estimations like this " if player is at X distance from the upper floor and the stairs that the guard would have to use have X meters taking in account the guard run speed them teleportation would take Y time" this will give a nice randomness's to it some times the guard will catch the player and some times it will not, in this way you guys save some "running up stairs" AI coding, but if he is near the player as he enters a elevator them make it wait for the elevator to come down. This only works in elevators that are not open like platforms and the player can see all the guards movements.

 

p.s - I'm no coder so i don't know if this is more easy to do them to make the guard really run up stairs but it does sound cool.

Edited June 8, 2008 by Argoon

[New Horizon]

p.s - I'm no coder so i don't know if this is more easy to do them to make the guard really run up stairs but it does sound cool.

 

Probably just as easy for the AI to run up the stairs, rather than add more calculations.

[Vadrosaul]

Good lord, someone felt the need to explain how elevator's work realistically

[Argoon]

Good lord, someone felt the need to explain how elevator's work realistically

 

And what is the problem.

 

The way Greebo said was codeding it to work is a unrealistic manner so i just decided to give my opinion and i thought saying how they normaly work would help.