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It's actually a good point. I'm torn on whether it's better to make the AI able to call the player back or make them wait for the elevator / take the stairs. Really depends how easy-to-outrun you want the AI to be.

 

(AIs already climb stairs BTW, there's no need to teleport them around the place to avoid that.)

My games | Public Service Announcement: TDM is not set in the Thief universe. The city in which it takes place is not the City from Thief. The player character is not called Garrett. Any person who contradicts these facts will be subjected to disapproving stares.
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We all know how elevators work. The question is whether we should have the lifts in Dark Mod resemble the lifts in Thief, which would immediately change direction upon button pushes. The fact that AI can use lifts complicates the matter, but I feel that lifts should indeed replicate the classic Thief behavior and respond immediately, and NOT behave like modern elevators.

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I think it's important that people remember that they can still create any sort of lift via map script. We have a test map where this is demonstrated. The AI cannot navigate a mapscript elevator though.

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It has gameplay implications though, and AI using the lifts was an issue that the original games didn't have to contend with. It's definitely a point I hadn't really thought about.

 

My own preference would be to have them behave as they would in reality, so we don't have the AI getting alerted because the player tried to use a lift. It feels like a bit of a slap in the face if we penalize the player for using the lift simply because we've now allowed AI to travel on them.

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Wait, what? Who's talking about AI getting alerted by lift operation?

 

The question is whether players should be able to use lifts to escape AI that are already chasing, or whether the AI should be able to call lifts back down to them while they're in motion. i.e. Does the elevator immediately respond to a button press (as in Thief) or does it wait until it's finished moving to its current destination and then serve the new request (as in real life).

My games | Public Service Announcement: TDM is not set in the Thief universe. The city in which it takes place is not the City from Thief. The player character is not called Garrett. Any person who contradicts these facts will be subjected to disapproving stares.
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Personally speaking I would prefer the real life way as it can lead to a bit more tension in the game.

For example say an AI has decided to use a 4 floor lift, this will take a bit of time to go up and down, however you are being chased by a guard and the only way out is the lift. You would have to think quick and figure something out while you wait for the lift to come back.

 

On a side note to that I guess you would now need to be wary of just going into lifts (should they be behind doors) as you would never know whats using them. I guess you could even have guards posted in them, if their patrol route was simply up and down in the lift they shouldn't really have a need to wander and would be a rather tricky obsticle to overcome.

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I think both options are viable, but if I were forced to pick one, I'd probably go with the 'binary' view, that is it can only be going up or going down, with no interruption. And only because the other method could become a bit comical. "I'm going up!" "Nope, you're coming down." "No! I'm going up!" "Nope..."

 

This would make elevators (one mover) fundamentally different from doors (another mover), though.

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I have no problem with an AI calling back an elevator if the player is stupid enough to run into one in plain sight.

 

One issue that hadn't occurred to me before, however, would be the possibility of players *who haven't alerted any guards* getting into a seemingly unused elevator, get half-way down to the basement, and then have the elevator called up to the top floor where a patrolling guard suddenly wants to use it. The player is essentially trapped and doomed to be discovered without having done anything wrong.

 

You could argue that players should case elevators quite carefully to make sure they aren't being used by a patrolling guard, but that's not easy to do.

 

I'm loathe to suggest changes that would require greebo to do even more work on this, however.

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It's possible for me to add a spawnarg which puts it in the hands of the mapper whether guards can call back elevators or not. I'd have to check again, but I think that's feasible within a reasonable timespan.

 

Also, I could change the elevator code a bit to make the un-interruptable. But this needs a tad more work.

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Having a lift you're riding interrupted and called back by a guard can be okay because it's your risk you took by riding it in the first place, which risk you could have lowered by watching the guard patrols to know if they use the lift. Also it could be a cool and fun game moment, "Oh crap, it must be a guard calling the lift back down, where's that flash bomb!!!" or even there could be a dark corner in the lift to crouch and hide in!

 

The issue of the guard calling the lift down and the thief riding pressing the button to go back up, down-up-down-up thief vs guard, that would only be an issue if there are buttons both in the lift and on the outside at each level. In classic Thief usually (always?) there are no buttons on the lifts themselves, so there would be no problem.

 

But if we are going to have buttons on lifts then the up-down-up-down silliness is pretty much a deal-breaker to me, and we would have to go with un-interruptable lifts.

 

If there is actually an option for the mapper to choose, then it would be up to the mapper, if he wanted interruptable lifts for "old school" style, to be sure to not put buttons on the lifts themselves.

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I have no problem with an AI calling back an elevator if the player is stupid enough to run into one in plain sight.

 

The mod is yours so you guys do what you think is best, but i still think this approach to elevator functionality is unfair to the player because in reality this wouldn't be a problem, so you guys are making it unrealistic harder, so to me is really a deal breaker.

 

Also IMO that above suggestion to have guards patrolling elevators (important ones i hope) is not bad.

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...but you can't talk about "reality" because you're comparing to modern elevators. Super early electric circuits for lifts might very well interrupt them when buttons are pushed.

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A friend of mine used to live in an house with such an old elevator (they had to keep it, bcause it was under protection because it was so old).

When you pressed the button in the middle of nowhere it simple stopped or changed direction. That was because the buttons were actullay the metal contacts, so when you changed them, the electric currency flew different obviously and reacted accordingly. Of course no modern elevator would do this anymore, because they usually are designed in such a way that they finish their current move.

 

For gameplay purposes I don't think it a good idea to allow AI to reverse the direction. It's quite easy for an AI to trap a player in this way, and there is no way out even if the player didn't do anything wrong. Adding an option to allow the mapper to decide this is also not a good idea, because the player should know how the world works. It would be quite inconsistent for no obvious reason if elevators work sometimes this way and sometimes that way.

Also if AI could recall an elevator just like that, then the elevators would become essentially useless, because players cant trust them so they would avoid them. And since there is no way a player can observer properly if an AI is about to call an elevator (not even talking about a getaway with it) only beginners would use them until they learn that they are useless.

Gerhard

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This is definitely a decision that should be made based on gameplay, not realism. :) I think there are cases both ways, and I'm not particularly attached to either one.

My games | Public Service Announcement: TDM is not set in the Thief universe. The city in which it takes place is not the City from Thief. The player character is not called Garrett. Any person who contradicts these facts will be subjected to disapproving stares.
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A friend of mine used to live in an house with such an old elevator (they had to keep it, bcause it was under protection because it was so old).

When you pressed the button in the middle of nowhere it simple stopped or changed direction. That was because the buttons were actullay the metal contacts, so when you changed them, the electric currency flew different obviously and reacted accordingly. Of course no modern elevator would do this anymore, because they usually are designed in such a way that they finish their current move.

 

For gameplay purposes I don't think it a good idea to allow AI to reverse the direction. It's quite easy for an AI to trap a player in this way, and there is no way out even if the player didn't do anything wrong. Adding an option to allow the mapper to decide this is also not a good idea, because the player should know how the world works. It would be quite inconsistent for no obvious reason if elevators work sometimes this way and sometimes that way.

Also if AI could recall an elevator just like that, then the elevators would become essentially useless, because players cant trust them so they would avoid them. And since there is no way a player can observer properly if an AI is about to call an elevator (not even talking about a getaway with it) only beginners would use them until they learn that they are useless.

 

I totally agree.

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I think its more of an elevator functionality "issue" than anything else. If you want, make it so the elevators MUST finish the current move before going the other way. That would be the more "realistic" approach.

However, if left alone, it could produce some good pant-pissing moments when you're on the run.

So...

Can/will the AI climb ladders? Thats been noticeably absent in the other three games, and I was hoping it would be included here. Nothing worse than climbing a ladder in a chase, only to have them either pull a retard (run at the ladder mercilessly) or run 300 yards out of the way offering an easy escape. I can't tell you how many times I ditched bad guys that way. Thats way important IMHO.

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Can/will the AI climb ladders? Thats been noticeably absent in the other three games, and I was hoping it would be included here. Nothing worse than climbing a ladder in a chase, only to have them either pull a retard (run at the ladder mercilessly) or run 300 yards out of the way offering an easy escape. I can't tell you how many times I ditched bad guys that way. Thats way important IMHO.

Nope, unfortunately not. Ladder-climbing AI opens a can of worms that we really don't want to deal with right now. Do a forum search if you're interested in the details.

 

The good news is that our AI are smart enough to realise they can't climb the ladder, and will either attempt to find an alternate route or yell at the player and throw things. No stupid running-at-the-ladder bugs. :)

My games | Public Service Announcement: TDM is not set in the Thief universe. The city in which it takes place is not the City from Thief. The player character is not called Garrett. Any person who contradicts these facts will be subjected to disapproving stares.
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I think you should let them get reversed immediately.

 

It doesn't matter that the player did nothing wrong. Bad things happen to good people :)

 

 

Plus if the mapper thinks you could put alternative exits along the path, you could leap onto a ledge instead of riding down for example.

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I prefer the lift completes its journey.

 

An alternative is both methods. A spawnarg on the elevator button if possible would set it override/not override. Normally the mapper would put this to override on the buttons that are on the elevator and not override on the ones that are on each floor.

 

Situations:

 

AI gets on elevator and starts to ascend. Sees you coming and cancels by hitting the down button. You better run.

 

Player ascending in elevator approaches upper floor to see 10 guards waiting for the lift. Player smacks the down button quick and waves byby. 10 guards run for the stair.....

 

Player runs ahead of AI onto lift and starts to go up. AI hits elevator button on floor but it will not override so he has to wait.

 

There can be no updownupdownupdown conflict because the button on the lift is master.

 

If a mapper puts master buttons on both lift and floor then he is a bad person and will only get a down button when he passes to the next life.

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How about an extra step for the guards to override the elevator and have it return upon pressing the button? Maybe they have to insert a key to allow instant control of the elevator's direction.

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I just had a situation in an FM, not uncommon, worth putting on the table just just as more fodder for thought ... even if go the no-override route.

 

I came to an elevator but it wasn't visually clear which floor I was on ... so I pushed the button for the floor I thought I was on and watched as it started passing right by me. Halting the elevator mid-stream allowed me to immediately get it back to my floor without having to wait forever.

 

Another similar sort of situation is when it isn't clear whether the elevator is at your level or you're just looking at an empty floor, e.g., it's in the dark ... I remember situations pushing the button hoping to bring the elevator down to me, only to see the "floor" lowering because the elevator was already at my level, or some variation of that. Another situation when it's nice to immediately correct the situation.

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In T2 all the buttons were mostly on each floor. Say 4 floors then each floor had 4 buttons = 16 buttons. It was possible to have a set on the elevator as well but that was rarely done because then it meant 20 buttons. But in TDM it makes sense to just have the 4 buttons on the elevator and only one fetch button on each floor = 8 buttons.

 

So if you come to the elevator you won't need to wonder which button to press as there will only be one. If the elevator is already at your floor but you can't see it in the dark then there is only one button to press so it cannot be sent away by mistake. :)

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