Windows

[BEAR]

So I'm at the point where to make my map look half decent I need to start making windows. I've looked through some of the included models and there are some nice 1 sided models, but I need full real windows you can see through.

 

In an effort to not create something that has already been created, what kind of things are there built in for this? I've not had any luck with the glass textures I can use with thiefs_den materials but I'm going to assume that I'll get some stuff later on for that.

 

Is my best bet to just create them using brushes? I think I can make an OK window but that seems like the type of thing that would do well saved as a premade or something. I'm thinking of pointed windows the like of which I've been observing in some local old brick churches.

[New Horizon]

So I'm at the point where to make my map look half decent I need to start making windows. I've looked through some of the included models and there are some nice 1 sided models, but I need full real windows you can see through.

 

In an effort to not create something that has already been created, what kind of things are there built in for this? I've not had any luck with the glass textures I can use with thiefs_den materials but I'm going to assume that I'll get some stuff later on for that.

 

Is my best bet to just create them using brushes? I think I can make an OK window but that seems like the type of thing that would do well saved as a premade or something. I'm thinking of pointed windows the like of which I've been observing in some local old brick churches.

 

Here is an article from the wiki that you might try playing around with . I'm sure the more experienced mappers will have some suggestions.

 

http://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php/...parent_textures

[BEAR]

Thanks, that actually helped me a good bit. I think with the thiefs_den materials all I have access to is the lit texture, it works as described in the wiki but everything is yellow, the unlit version might be more appropriate for me but this works fine as a proof-of-concept.

 

A problem I have to figure out is how to properly make a hole in a wall to put the window. I used patches to create the curved top piece (perhaps a bad idea? I didn't know how to do that with a brush), and last I recall I cant subtract a patch from a brush to make said hole.

 

First attempt:

 

I'll probably play with the brushes and textures a bit to make it look nicer but overall that was easier than I expected. I'll probably do the same thing with some square windows.

Edited July 4, 2008 by BEAR

[SneaksieDave]

As for the textures, we have a few decent, and a lot not-so-good, but it seems we finally have a 'method' that can and should be used for them (whereby light is built into various brightness versions of the same texture, and they are grouped together)... so things will probably be improving there in the future. I for one think it would be great if one day we have all (or most) old 'static' window textures replaced with varied brightness versions.

 

Just FYI.

[Tels]

We also have textures for semi-transparent windows, but I am not sure if we released them with TD. Probably not.

 

Here is an example using "warped" glass:

 

 

We have also milky, and dirty yellow, all in "warped" and "unwarped" versions.

[BEAR]

We also have textures for semi-transparent windows, but I am not sure if we released them with TD. Probably not.

 

Here is an example using "warped" glass:

 

 

We have also milky, and dirty yellow, all in "warped" and "unwarped" versions.

 

Cool, that looks more like what I'm looking for, but I can change the texture quite easily later on. Does anyone have a suggestion as to how to mount this window in a wall when I cant make a curved hole in it? Is there some kind of view portal or something you can do?

[SneaksieDave]

Basically you just rough-angle cut the window out of the wall, and use filler pieces and the trim to cover the rough/ugly spots. It's like fitting a curved piece into a blocky hole, with the help of some putty.

 

Edit: Okay here's an example. See how the rough wall cuts are buried within the trim/arch.

[BEAR]

That looks great. I ended up doing something similar but you're texturing looks much better and the curve has more segments than mine. I was able to make the side boards wide enough that subtracting a triangle got everything covered, but in the future I might make more curves. Now I've just got to figure out a better way to copy the window, it would be great to be able to define an order in which to do things, like a macro or something. Chances are though with the few I've gotta do I'll just do them by hand.

[Tels]

Basically you just rough-angle cut the window out of the wall, and use filler pieces and the trim to cover the rough/ugly spots. It's like fitting a curved piece into a blocky hole, with the help of some putty.

 

Edit: Okay here's an example. See how the rough wall cuts are buried within the trim/arch.

 

Heh that looks great, can we get this as prefab? Please?

[BEAR]

Heh that looks great, can we get this as prefab? Please?

 

Seconded. That just gave me an idea of how to copy and paste the window, and that is to just save an entire square containing the window and he surrounding material and plug that right in!

[SneaksieDave]

LOL really? It was just the most basic example I could think of for it, took all of 9 minutes (part of which were loading the editor and textures, and grabbing and uploading a screenshot. I didn't really bother with alignment, just took the brick tex and bumped the scaling by 1 and figured, "eh good enough."

 

Okay well if it's liked that much I'll just rebuild it and upload (I didn't save it). It'll be arch_simple or something.

 

Edit: This does get me thinking though. There are potentially very many useful beginner's tutorials and samples which would help new TDM'ers a lot...

[BEAR]

Having access to practice maps and what not is probably as good a teaching tool as anything. I know I copied the doors strait out of thiefs_den to play with them because I could start with something that works and break it rather than starting from nothing and trying to make it work.

[Tels]

Having access to practice maps and what not is probably as good a teaching tool as anything. I know I copied the doors strait out of thiefs_den to play with them because I could start with something that works and break it rather than starting from nothing and trying to make it work.

 

I agree. /me doesn't haven't the slightest idea how sneaksie made the arch, mine always look like ugh.

[SneaksieDave]

Okay it's up as arch_stone_large_01.pfb. The texturing is better than before, but not perfect; it's about the best I can get it with arches of different shapes adjacent to each other. It's meant to be aligned "best" when nearest the player's eye level, and on all sides of the arch itself (beyond that, you'll notice it starts to slip out of alignment due to different sizes and dimensions of the patches). I left the patch caps on for a couple of reasons: depending on whether or not the user needs them, it's easier to delete them than have to create them, and also because sometimes they help prevent sparklies and gaps at the endpoints. It's only four extra polygons anyway.

 

Hm. I wonder what else to make? Somewhere there was a *fantastic* patches tutorial, which made the concept of splitting brushes clear as a bell (this guy could build anything with patches)... I'll see if I can find it or the map built from it.

[SneaksieDave]

Found the tutorial I mentioned above. This is good stuff (I also added a link on the wiki at the bottom of the patches tutorial).

 

The tutorial (it seems obvious, but also clever once you read it):

http://www.doom3world.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=10517

 

His example which even features archways curved on two planes:

post: http://www.doom3world.org/phpbb2/viewtopic...=119203#p119203

resurrected link: http://208.49.149.118/thedarkmod/files/patchtower.zip

[DigitalNapalm]

We also have textures for semi-transparent windows, but I am not sure if we released them with TD. Probably not.

 

Here is an example using "warped" glass:

 

 

We have also milky, and dirty yellow, all in "warped" and "unwarped" versions.

 

I know you guys were planning on making an "erector set" for the dark mod. Windows like this should definitely be included. Awesome work, Tels.

 

Question: I'm used to subtractive geometry like UnrealEd. I can't seem to get DarkRadiant to build the way I want because I keep trying to build boxes and what not like I'm deleting space out of an infinite solid... Are there any vids around showing D3 editor? Has anyone posted any simple construction vids with DR? I seem to learn best that way. Thanks guys.

Edited September 4, 2008 by DigitalNapalm

[greebo]

For DarkRadiant there are no tutorial videos available, but there's Fidcal's A-Z Beginner Guid on our wiki, which should be enough to get you started. Just search for A-Z Beginner on the wiki, you'll definitely find it.

[Komag]

deleting from an infinite solid is highly non-intuitive. For most of us, DR (and all additive editing) makes a lot more sense, although I admit that sealing off the map from the infinite void is also somewhat non-intuitive.

[jdude]

That looks great. I ended up doing something similar but you're texturing looks much better and the curve has more segments than mine. I was able to make the side boards wide enough that subtracting a triangle got everything covered, but in the future I might make more curves. Now I've just got to figure out a better way to copy the window, it would be great to be able to define an order in which to do things, like a macro or something. Chances are though with the few I've gotta do I'll just do them by hand.

 

Given that picture I have two different scenarios.

 

Firsty it depends where your going to be using this window. If it is going to be somewhere distant from the player, where the player will not be able to get near, I'd suggest keeping it relatively low-poly like the current version.

 

However, if the player is going to be getting close and able to inspect it, I'd suggest changing the texture scale on the wood and metal bars to somewhere around 0.25 for wood and .1 for the metal bits. This will allow for far more detail to be seen. Afterwards, use the texture tool to manually align the textures and the patches so it looks like one large cohesive piece of wood, or you could put a block on the top big to look like a joint and cover up the paper-esque joint. You may also want to consider making the metal bars into 2 faces like a traingle (like this > facing outward) This will give it a bit more depth the the player.

 

It may sound like lots of work for a simple window, but afterwards you can just copy it as much as you want and it will look great!

 

Hopefully this helps

[BEAR]

Thanks for the tips. The texture scaling numbers will be a good reference for me, I don't have a good baseline in my head for things like that.

 

My problem is that I've already copied my windows 100 times all over the map, so I probably won't change them too much. Its basically a demo map anyways, I'll be lucky to finish it at all so I'll probably just plug along and not worry about them and take my lessons to the next mission I start (which will hopefully be good )

[BEAR]

I've been meaning to ask about this, but kept forgetting.

 

There is an interesting effect that I've gotten making my windows. I put a sheet of caulk in between the panes of the window (1 pane outside and 1 inside, being patches since the top piece has to curve with the arch (guess it didn't really but I made it that way)), and it has kind of a cool effect of appearing to be transparent without actually being transparent.

 

If you look at the screenshot, you can see the entire window frame (inside and outside of the glass). Not only that, you can see shadows cast on the outside of the frame by the candle inside. But, you can't actually see anything outside, so no performance hit. Normally you'd be able to see the ground easily, but you cant. It give the effect of being inside with a bright light at night, where the dark seems much darker, like if you put it out you would be able to see out the window (if that makes any sense). Since the outside panes are set to be the opaque lit texture, you can't see in, and thus nothing inside gets rendered, should have taken a screenshot but everyone knows what that looks like basically (though there is a nice effect of an actual glow on the outside wall from the non-shadowcasting candle inside)

 

I figure this has something to do with the window being a func_static, maybe the entire thing is rendered so you can't actually cut it in half or something (I don't recall if I noticed the effect when the window was worldspawn). I should test that.

 

Just thought I'd note this if anyone else wants to use this. I'm almost assuredly not the first to see this because I'm sure someone else gave me the idea to put caulk in between the panes (I just don't know who). If this isn't documented anywhere it might should be (if anyone else thinks its useful, I rather like it. I don't like totally opaque windows, I wish they could all be 100% see through but this is a nice balance).

[SneaksieDave]

Cool, if I understand correctly what's going on. Is the outside definitely not being rendered from inside (try r_showtris)? Are there portals involved?

[BEAR]

No, nothing outside is being rendered other than the windowframe. I've done show_tri's and put stuff right outside and you seen none of it. If I put a hole in the wall, it breaks the effect and causes you to be able to see. There are no visportals because the caulk is worldspawn and seals off the func_static window with the walls surrounding.

 

I've opened doors (and coorisponding visportals) from the outside to that room and it doesn't seem to break the effect.

[AluminumHaste]

deleting from an infinite solid is highly non-intuitive. For most of us, DR (and all additive editing) makes a lot more sense, although I admit that sealing off the map from the infinite void is also somewhat non-intuitive.

 

Not really, pretend you are out in space and have to make sure that their are no holes that can kill you.