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New Proguard_02 (still WIP)


ascottk

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I complained earlier that we need more BG variants. So I've been studying the maya help files and tuts to further my modeling abilities:

 

builderguard2wip1.th.jpg

bghead2.th.jpg

 

The body is made from scratch (combination of extrusions made from a cube, and revolved surfaces from curves). The head is taken from makehuman 0.9, the version that still has the fantasy morphs. I tried making a head from scratch but it got too complicated and messy for me :wacko: It's similar to the original BG but generic enough to be made into any type of guard. The geometry is nice and clean so it'll be easier to rig. The inventor engineer I did was extremely messy (my first attempt at creating from scratch) so I'm doing better ^_^

 

The body was modeled within a day & I hope to make more characters. We need more pagans!

 

EDIT: It's been a while since I posted a thumbnail link . . .

 

Here's an update with a new concept:

post-476-1239219257_thumb.jpg

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I think you'd get much better results if you used the 'frankenstein' method to create new character models. The most difficult part of getting new models to look good next to Odd's characters is the normal-maps. Without high quality, high-poly character meshes, there is no way to make good normalmaps, and the resulting character will stick out like a sore thumb next to our other models. I basically take Odd's existing AI models and cut them up, reshape them and add new parts as necessary. The end results are pretty good. The nobleman, for example, was created using the thief legs, modified to create shoes instead of boots, the nobleman tunic, shortened and reshaped, and the arms from the acoltyte, heavily tweaked, and then with the shoulder-pads and collar added.

 

noble2.jpg

 

Here's another example, yet to be rigged, which is a made of modified citywatch/forger parts:

 

stock1.jpg

 

I had some plans to make some alternate builders (in fact, I have a WIP one somewhere), but they got shelved when we decided to switch to the new skeleton. We have no shortage of AI models, actually, but few people to rig them (and I have a hard time getting motivated to rig them when the new skeleton isn't actually usable yet).

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What I don't get, actually, is while oDD may be a great hi-poly modeler/texture artist, the low-poly stuff is not that great. The uv maps are messy, they are a pain in the ass to rig, the meshes don't line up (i.e. the builder acolyte's hood clips into the chest armor), and I ended up fixing them anyway so we could get them in the game.

 

What does make oDD's models special are the textures! Although the uv maps are messy, they really make the models stand out from the crowd. If he were any less of a texture artist, we probably wouldn't be using the models.

 

His normal maps are awesome as well. I did some experiments with Maya and its surface sampler and ended up with some great normals maps! Combine a hi-poly map with some finer bump maps (either with PS for the GIMP) and you have a winning combo.

 

You're using Maya now? Look at the surface sampler help. You don't need a lot of detail in the hi-poly mesh. Just add another hipoly mesh to the original and you can get some gorgeous normal maps. i.e. I combined one of the hammer statues (that's low poly but it worked great) with the forearm armor and I have a nice little detail on the normal map. You'll have to flip the Y on the normal with a normal map plugin (The GIMP: normalize only, 1 depth, flip Y). I'll do a tutorial whenever I get a reliable internet connection.

 

Sorry, working with oDD's models have been a major PITA. But they've been lessons on what not to do & I applied that knowledge to this new model. Besides, we have a limited supply of oDD body parts and now the AI are starting to look too much alike.

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You're using Maya now?

 

No, I'm using Lightwave still.

 

The uv maps are messy, they are a pain in the ass to rig, the meshes don't line up

 

He did take some shortcuts, true, but you can't argue with results (the textures are good, but they're mostly photo-reference, and not hard to duplicate).

 

Sorry, working with oDD's models have been a major PITA. But they've been lessons on what not to do & I applied that knowledge to this new model. Besides, we have a limited supply of oDD body parts and now the AI are starting to look too much alike.

 

Well, my experience has been different, I guess. I don't find working with them much of a problem at all. And with over twenty to pick and choose from I haven't had any issues finding material, even for female characters.

 

Even when BT came back a while ago with a very good-looking nobleman character, I still had my doubts that it would look right beside our other characters, as they were two very different styles. AI are one area where consistency is particularly important.

 

Here's another character made with that method, which I had once hoped to have for release (of course, I made her a year ago...I can see areas for improvement now, but the point remains that there is lots of potential for variety).

post-9-1238936066_thumb.jpg

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Well, my experience has been different, I guess. I don't find working with them much of a problem at all. And with over twenty to pick and choose from I haven't had any issues finding material, even for female characters.
That's because the parts I chose were the easiest and most generic meshes to work with ;)

 

Even when BT came back a while ago with a very good-looking nobleman character, I still had my doubts that it would look right beside our other characters, as they were two very different styles. AI are one area where consistency is particularly important.
& that can be achieved with the right textures.

 

Here's another character made with that method, which I had once hoped to have for release (of course, I made her a year ago...I can see areas for improvement now, but the point remains that there is lots of potential for variety).
Looks like the barmaid Dom's friend was working on . . . I still don't get why we didn't use those meshes. With the right textures they could've matched or exceeded oDD's style.

 

To be quite honest, some of the Frankenstein AI do not look to well. I groaned when I saw the begger in St. Lucia.

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Here we go again. lol

 

I don't see any issues with the frankenstein approach. It's consistent, and fast. Even I can do it. lol In any case, this was a team decision and we have been moving forward with it for quite some time now. We're far too close to release to start reinventing the wheel, yet again! The same type of Gold builder guard could be whipped up within a few minutes by editing in lightwave and changing the skin, I think we can even alter the colour with the material files and never touch the texture. Frankensteining also makes it easier to swap animations since the bodies remain far more consistent.

 

There is more to odds work than just the textures. Anatomy is just as important. Those meshes that you speak of from a year or more ago just did not match up. It's far too late in the game to be digging this all up again.

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That's because the parts I chose were the easiest and most generic meshes to work with

 

Oh, maybe we're misunderstanding. I'm not talking about those pieces you cut up in Maya way back when. I'm using the original models Odd had in the big package he gave us before he left. There are a lot more there.

 

I still don't get why we didn't use those meshes. With the right textures they could've matched or exceeded oDD's style.

 

You can go back and read the thread if you want the details. I disagree that they would have come anywhere close to Odd's style (style being quite a different thing than quality), but that's ancient history now.

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Here we go again. lol

 

I don't see any issues with the frankenstein approach. It's consistent, and fast. Even I can do it. lol In any case, this was a team decision and we have been moving forward with it for quite some time now. We're far too close to release to start reinventing the wheel, yet again! The same type of Gold builder guard could be whipped up within a few minutes by editing in lightwave and changing the skin, I think we can even alter the colour with the material files and never touch the texture. Frankensteining also makes it easier to swap animations since the bodies remain far more consistent.

I whipped up this guy's body in less than a day & he'll use preexisting animations. How is that reinventing the wheel? Reinventing the wheel is using a new rig.

 

There is more to odds work than just the textures. Anatomy is just as important. Those meshes that you speak of from a year or more ago just did not match up. It's far too late in the game to be digging this all up again.
I can model something from scratch in less time (as opposed to tweaking preexisting models) and the pieces go together since they were designed that way. The AI parts were meant to be tweaked so they would fit together. And I brought up a thread a while back about anatomy! oDD says the anatomy won't matter because the game will distort the perception of the model but he didn't back that up.

 

I've seen the Frankenstein approach, and no insult to Spring's efforts (that is greatly appreciated . . . you have no idea), and using pieces of oDD's models does not make a good looking character. It takes oDD's artistry in order to keep things looking good but I saw another thread where he was trying to reinvent the wheel (new rig, citywatch mesh fix) like the new rig with the proguard. I don't know why the animators need to design a new rig when oDD had a fix a while back. Things do not make any sense.

 

What frustrates me is that the mod is constantly being reinvented and not leaving well enough alone especially in the animation department. I would love to help but I'm spinning in circles trying to figure out where the mod is going. Do I use the new proguard rig or do I keep things simple and just use the existing animations that Spring exported? Do I continue to offer new AI models only to be shot down? Should I take my services elsewhere where they would be more appreciated? I'm sure there are other mods who would appreciate having more AI models and rigs without being held to the somewhat unattainable heights of oDD's artistry.

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I would love to help but I'm spinning in circles trying to figure out where the mod is going.

 

We can certainly use help in the following areas:

 

1. Squill could perhaps use help finishing off the animation rig (adding joints for the tunic was basically all that's left) though you'd have to ask him.

 

2. We have at least fifteen characters that will need to be rigged to this new skeleton (obviously not before 1.0, but the more the merrier). Right now only two are.

 

3. The existing animations will have to be adjusted to work with the new skeletons and/or new ones will need to be made.

 

4. We will need new ragdolls for AI of different sizes.

 

Do I continue to offer new AI models only to be shot down? I'm sure there are other mods who would appreciate having more AI models and rigs without being held to the somewhat unattainable heights of oDD's artistry.

 

Of course you can make new AI models if you want (though we don't have any pressing need for new meshes at the moment). And I don't expect anyone to make models of the same quality is Oddity's, but they do have to fit the existing style (and relative quality) of the other characters. I personally think it is very difficult to do that from scratch, but I'd love to be pleasantly surprised. I just want to make sure that you're prepared for the possibility that we won't use the models if they don't fit that style.

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4. We will need new ragdolls for AI of different sizes.

Not necessarily, if we can instead reference the lower leg AF body to a joint on the bottom of the foot or something, it should resize itself automatically and we should only need one AF (much easier to work with). The problem right now is that it's not referenced to anything, just a set length which makes some characters' foot AF bodies clip into the floor.

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Okay, I followed some advise and used the bg boots. A new render is at the bottom of the top post.

 

This time I'd like some feedback/constructive criticism instead of "Oh, It'd be easier to use AI parts . . . " or "In order to stay true to oDD's style (which I don't buy)" . . .

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Nice :)

 

I accidentally opened the bottom image first and thought "I don't know what NH and Spring are talking about", but now I can see a big difference between your original image and the bottom one.

 

It looks MUCH better. I assume it is not normal-mapped yet so that goes without saying, but the rest of the model looks really good. The head looks really good, shape and features-wise, again a normal would make it perfect. I can't really fault the face in anatomy so that's good.

 

The body. Looks MUCH better then the prior one. The chest plate could be slightly scaled down imo though that may be an illusion due to the red cloth covering half of it, increasing apparent size. The legs look really good, only comment is the small dark square on the right hand side of the image (below the left knee), is that a shading stuff up or is it a sharp Doom 3 shadow? The bottom part of the chest plate (covering the quadriceps) looks really good.

 

In all a huge improvement. What does the back look like btw?

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Texturing needs work, but I assume that's WIP (and as mentioned, normal mapping will no doubt help a lot when added). The main issue I see with it at the moment is the chest - from that pic, it seems quite oddly boxy. I realise it's probably intended to be the armour making it that way, but it still looks wrong.

My games | Public Service Announcement: TDM is not set in the Thief universe. The city in which it takes place is not the City from Thief. The player character is not called Garrett. Any person who contradicts these facts will be subjected to disapproving stares.
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Anatomy. Arms, upper torso and head feel proportionally incorrect. It's not something I can really instruct someone in, it's just something you'll have to teach yourself to see through study. oDD spent a lot of time studying and perfecting his style...which is very naturalistic...similar to the first two Thief games, and that's why his characters are so good...it's also why he is doing some really interesting work these days.

 

 

http://area.autodesk.com/index.php/stories...fen_pixelwerks/

 

 

Your model shows potential, but has a long way to go before it could be considered for inclusion.

Texturing is definitely a part of what makes oDD's models so great, but there is a lot more than that going on in his models. They feel alive...not only because of the texturing, but because they just 'look' correct.

 

It was a team decision to recycle the existing model base for consistency, ease of use, and because it's a time honored tradition in the Thief Modding Community. People were always reskinning, hacking, existing models. It works quite well...and with odds models, a lot of parts are easily interchangeable and that's what we want for this toolset.

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I'm trying him out in-game (pauldrons are looking funky):

post-476-1239244411_thumb.jpg

 

Nice :)

 

I accidentally opened the bottom image first and thought "I don't know what NH and Spring are talking about", but now I can see a big difference between your original image and the bottom one.

 

It looks MUCH better. I assume it is not normal-mapped yet so that goes without saying, but the rest of the model looks really good. The head looks really good, shape and features-wise, again a normal would make it perfect. I can't really fault the face in anatomy so that's good.

 

The body. Looks MUCH better then the prior one. The chest plate could be slightly scaled down imo though that may be an illusion due to the red cloth covering half of it, increasing apparent size. The legs look really good, only comment is the small dark square on the right hand side of the image (below the left knee), is that a shading stuff up or is it a sharp Doom 3 shadow? The bottom part of the chest plate (covering the quadriceps) looks really good.

 

In all a huge improvement. What does the back look like btw?

Normal maps are just getting started. & I agree with the upper armor. I scaled it down, then down again, then again . . . just doesn't look right.

 

 

Texturing needs work, but I assume that's WIP (and as mentioned, normal mapping will no doubt help a lot when added). The main issue I see with it at the moment is the chest - from that pic, it seems quite oddly boxy. I realise it's probably intended to be the armour making it that way, but it still looks wrong.
Finally someone knows the meaning of "WIP"! :laugh: As opposed to the next post.

 

 

Anatomy. Arms, upper torso and head feel proportionally incorrect. It's not something I can really instruct someone in, it's just something you'll have to teach yourself to see through study. oDD spent a lot of time studying and perfecting his style...which is very naturalistic...similar to the first two Thief games, and that's why his characters are so good...it's also why he is doing some really interesting work these days.

 

 

http://area.autodesk.com/index.php/stories...fen_pixelwerks/

 

 

Your model shows potential, but has a long way to go before it could be considered for inclusion.

Texturing is definitely a part of what makes oDD's models so great, but there is a lot more than that going on in his models. They feel alive...not only because of the texturing, but because they just 'look' correct.

 

It was a team decision to recycle the existing model base for consistency, ease of use, and because it's a time honored tradition in the Thief Modding Community. People were always reskinning, hacking, existing models. It works quite well...and with odds models, a lot of parts are easily interchangeable and that's what we want for this toolset.

This isn't Thief, oDD is rarely around, & the proportions on the frankenstein models have not looked well! You take take pieces of oDD's model & still not have them proportional.

 

& btw NH, I've been drawing human figures and other things since I've been a kid. I have also made it very very very clear that this is WIP as seen in the thread title? Is there any other way to make that clear? I'm also looking for constructive criticism not a freakin' history lesson.

 

And the render of the first pics are from Maya not TDM, except for this post.

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Chest boxiness is either fixed or coincidentally less apparent in that latest in-game shot, but the face texture looks unconvincing in the shot... might just be the low-light condition though. Is the head an existing TDM head?

My games | Public Service Announcement: TDM is not set in the Thief universe. The city in which it takes place is not the City from Thief. The player character is not called Garrett. Any person who contradicts these facts will be subjected to disapproving stares.
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Chest boxiness is either fixed or coincidentally less apparent in that latest in-game shot, but the face texture looks unconvincing in the shot... might just be the low-light condition though. Is the head an existing TDM head?

I could shape up the armor & I ripped off the head from a makehuman 0.9 export. The texture is a WIP but I have another idea for the head. The builder "imperial" is kind of inspired by the Imperial guards from The Empire Strikes Back ;) I'll probably put a angled helmet with a nose guard on him to further play the idea of an Imperial guard. I like his face but the face texture probably needs more contrast (no specs or normals yet).

 

And to quell this ridiculous notion about proportion, I loaded my guy and compared him to two of oDD's guys (proguard & merc elite) in DR:

bgimperialproguardfront.th.jpg

bgimperialproguardsidev.th.jpg

bgimperialmerceliteside.th.jpg

 

I don't know about you, but my guy looks proportional to other oDD models . . .

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You're asking for critique, but it sounds like you're getting annoyed when you receive it. I could contribute some, but only read if you are able to without being insulted.

 

Without overanalyzing, if I were to pick what feels "wrong" about it to me:

 

- head/body proportion; since that's being confronted in the post above, this isn't about simple width or height, but proportion (see next item)

- he's scrawny; medieval type guards with no guns available had to push their weight around -- he's like a skinny kid in a halloween superhero costume. Toothpick legs and arms. Watch Braveheart or Beowulf or any movie set in such times. Those aren't 140 lb computer nerds (which is probably 75% of our community), these are solid, muscular, fat, thick 250+ lb men. Bruisers. Big dudes you don't want to fuck with, not the bully magnet in school. Not everyone has to be that size of course, but it's far more believable if most are.

 

[For the record, this also bothers me about our existing thief model -- Garrett in TDS is shaped like a man. Broad chest and shoulders, proportioned like an althetic adult male. The shadow of our thief (I know, I know -- it's the shadow model, and it should be OFF anyway) is too slight and skinny for my tastes. Like a big-headed skinny boy.]

 

 

 

That said, it's clearly WIP (texture improvements will definitely go a long way I'm sure) and looks better in the game shot, so it's more promising than before.

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(I know, I know -- it's the shadow model, and it should be OFF anyway) is too slight and skinny for my tastes. Like a big-headed skinny boy.]

 

The shadowmeshes have to be skinnier than the visible mesh, otherwise they poke through and cast shadows on the mesh itself, which looks terrible. There's not much we can do about that.

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The shadowmeshes have to be skinnier than the visible mesh, otherwise they poke through and cast shadows on the mesh itself, which looks terrible. There's not much we can do about that.

 

The Thief model is a bit stretched out though isn't it? I thought I read that somewhere recently. Perhaps that is the cause.

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I'm not sure; I don't play with the player shadow on. But seeing the Thief model in various contest maps I haven't noticed anything wrong with the proportion (just his overall size).

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I'm not sure; I don't play with the player shadow on. But seeing the Thief model in various contest maps I haven't noticed anything wrong with the proportion (just his overall size).

 

Ahh, ok. Perhaps that's what it was. I remember thinking though, when I would turn the 3rd person model on, that the model looked stretched out. I think it looked ok for the AI, but for some reason I think the player model version looked wrong. I might not be remembering correctly, I'll have to check.

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You're asking for critique, but it sounds like you're getting annoyed when you receive it. I could contribute some, but only read if you are able to without being insulted.
I'm annoyed when they don't critique & don't offer anything constructive. I'm annoyed about these little tdm world lessons instead of offering me anything useful.

 

Without overanalyzing, if I were to pick what feels "wrong" about it to me:

head/body proportion; since that's being confronted in the post above, this isn't about simple width or height, but proportion (see next item)

- he's scrawny; medieval type guards with no guns available had to push their weight around -- he's like a skinny kid in a halloween superhero costume. Toothpick legs and arms. Watch Braveheart or Beowulf or any movie set in such times. Those aren't 140 lb computer nerds (which is probably 75% of our community), these are solid, muscular, fat, thick 250+ lb men. Bruisers. Big dudes you don't want to fuck with, not the bully magnet in school. Not everyone has to be that size of course, but it's far more believable if most are.

I can see that about the arms but the legs I also took from the builder guard. He's a scrawny guy.

 

[For the record, this also bothers me about our existing thief model -- Garrett in TDS is shaped like a man. Broad chest and shoulders, proportioned like an althetic adult male. The shadow of our thief (I know, I know -- it's the shadow model, and it should be OFF anyway) is too slight and skinny for my tastes. Like a big-headed skinny boy.]

 

That said, it's clearly WIP (texture improvements will definitely go a long way I'm sure) and looks better in the game shot, so it's more promising than before.

I always thought the thief had a small torso. I remember seeing posts about why the thief is so skinny & short, he has to squeeze in tight places & such.
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