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Thief 4


Tushaar

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I never said it would be a move away from stealth. I said that you could interpret his "reach out to new fans" line as saying that the game would try and target players who don't normally play stealth games.

 

This isn't inherently a bad thing, but it was the reason for a number of the "dumbing down" decisions in TDS, like:

 

"Players get bored waiting around while a guard searches for them, so let's make them give up quickly."

 

"We can't use a crosshair, but how will non-stealth players know when they can use the blackjack? I know, let's raise the arm for them."

 

"Nobody likes to hunt around the map for loot when all the AI are dead, so let's make them glow so players can find them quickly and move on."

 

Etc.

 

(actually, the last two are just guesses, but the first one comes from an interview Warren Spector gave)

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You have to bear in mind that he's trying to distinguish his new (and untested) design studio, and coming out and saying they're just going to be essentially copying the work of Looking Glass or Ion Storm is not very good for his company or the morale of the people who work there.

 

Framing it as "doing something new and challenging" sets the agenda for his team rather than the game, I feel.

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I feel cynical about how good a 4th Thief is going to be from an untested studios, particularly with the marketing weasel words. Anyway, in case it's sh!t, that's what The Dark Mod is for :)

Ha! So what if I am, huh? Anyways, I work better when I'm drunk. It makes me fearless! If I see a bad guy, I'll just point my sword at him. And saaaaaay "HEY! Bad guy! You're not s'pposed to be here! Go home or I'll stick you with my sword...'til you go...'Ouch I'm dead!' Ahahahah (hic) See? Ain't no one gonna be messin with old Benny."
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I feel cynical about how good a 4th Thief is going to be from an untested studios, particularly with the marketing weasel words. Anyway, in case it's sh!t, that's what The Dark Mod is for :)

 

Who needs T4 at all when we have the DarkMod?- new games built by fans who know how the heart of the game should be! - who would be better developers?

 

I assume T4 Canada is aware of the formation of the DarkMod; I think they should be concerned, what will T4 have to offer that DM will not? - besides a price tag?

 

By the time T4 is out, DM will be well developed with many missions out already.

 

And as what we have seen with some of the fan missions already made with the dark engine, it was said, & rightfully so, that some of those missions equaled or surpassed those in the original games!

 

So again...Who needs T4 at all when we have the DarkMod?!!!!!!

 

 

 

Matt

Edited by Unwanted Guest
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Lets not turn this into a Darkmod VS Thief 4 thread. Rather lets all just be happy that we're lucky enough to have two major releases in the coming years for a cult following of fans and we will have the opportunity to enjoy both :)

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From what I can guess, Thief 4 will be much more technologically advanced than Dark Mod, unless they choose to seriously screw up their engine. Also, TDM probably won't be able to compete Thief 4 in terms of animations (quality, variation), textures and consistency of level design. You just can't keep up with a full-blown (paid) animation department, who are working full-time for years, just to name an example.

 

However, TDM's strong points are gameplay, atmosphere and the ease of level editing, plus the fact that it will be free (GPL'd). I don't think people realise how easy it is in the meantime to create maps for TDM. We literally ripped our asses open for future mappers. Creating one mission per week is possible, if you know what you're doing.

 

There's no point in discussing "is T4 better than TDM". T4 will be good, it will be fun, and it will be high quality, if the developers are anything near worth their money. But what will be after T4 is released?

 

edit: one last point: imagine how much more difficult it will be for the community to create content the quality of recent games. Creating good content is not as easy as it used to be 10 years ago, where in-game items were about 6 polys and people didn't care (just look at the Thief AI). It's non-trivial for TDS, it's non-trivial for TDM and the bar will be even higher for T4.

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Did not mean to imply one was better than the other,

 

 

 

I was saying TDM appears to be complex enough to more than satisfy game players needs, with all the fan missions, and their variety by various authors;

 

t4 may be a little better with design/effects, but I bet it will be mostly like playing another very well constructed long DM fan mission ( reflection of Calendera's legacy immediately comes to mind). Vanilla ice cream vs vanilla ice cream with sprinkles. both will satisfy the need for vanilla ice cream

That's my gut feel.

 

 

 

M

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Also, TDM probably won't be able to compete Thief 4 in terms of animations (quality, variation), textures and consistency of level design. You just can't keep up with a full-blown (paid) animation department, who are working full-time for years, just to name an example.

I don't think this is true. Many of the Thief FMs are on par with the original's in terms of quality. And look what stupid, stupid decision a professional company made with TDS...

 

TDM will live or die on the quality of its FMs, and with the excitement boost of T4 on the horizon I predict waaay more interest in it than would have existed.

I want your brain... to make his heart... beat faster.

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edit: one last point: imagine how much more difficult it will be for the community to create content the quality of recent games. Creating good content is not as easy as it used to be 10 years ago, where in-game items were about 6 polys and people didn't care (just look at the Thief AI). It's non-trivial for TDS, it's non-trivial for TDM and the bar will be even higher for T4.

 

I'm not entirely convinced by the suggestion that developing content is getting progressively harder as games become more complex and detailed. It's just that the particular tools and techniques have changed.

 

For example, when designing models for Quake 1 the required polycount might have been much lower, but the modelling technique was probably simpler as well, such as manually placing vertices and faces. With modern games the polycount is much higher, but we have access to advanced tools like subdivision surfaces and digital sculpting that can generate high-poly objects very easily.

 

Similarly with textures, we are not using 32x32 image sizes any more, so manual painting and pixel-setting is less appropriate, but conversely we now have access to vast online libraries of digital photographs at high resolutions, so producing a good texture isn't necessarily any more difficult (possibly it is much easier).

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I daresay it is getting harder though, more expertise is required. Long ago one guy could make a whole A-list game alone (like in the 80's), then teams started needing to be gathered, then larger and larger, till now you need 100 professionals 3 years to make a good A-list game. If it was just as you say then one dude could still make a game, just using awesome tools, but that's not apparently the case

shadowdark50.gif keep50.gif
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I daresay it is getting harder though, more expertise is required. Long ago one guy could make a whole A-list game alone (like in the 80's), then teams started needing to be gathered, then larger and larger, till now you need 100 professionals 3 years to make a good A-list game. If it was just as you say then one dude could still make a game, just using awesome tools, but that's not apparently the case

 

IRC, the first mortal kombat game was just 1 coder, 1 sound guy and 2 artists

 

Even in movies these days, the credits usually take a long time.

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happycheeze.deviantart.com

 

Moddb

 

Gamers Outreach, a nonprofit that uses videogames to raise money for chairty.

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TDM will live or die on the quality of its FMs, and with the excitement boost of T4 on the horizon I predict waaay more interest in it than would have existed.

 

Very good point. This is why I appreciate them doing another Thi4f (first time writing this I think it's just a typo), no matter how it will turn out.

 

I'd like to add the perception of Dark Mod will not depend on the overall quality of it's FMs, but mostly on the good ones. Time is on it's side.

 

On development being easier in the good old days: anyone ever done maps for Wolfenstein 3d? -- Those were easy. Well, and limited somehow. <_<

 

--

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I daresay it is getting harder though, more expertise is required. Long ago one guy could make a whole A-list game alone (like in the 80's), then teams started needing to be gathered, then larger and larger, till now you need 100 professionals 3 years to make a good A-list game. If it was just as you say then one dude could still make a game, just using awesome tools, but that's not apparently the case

 

Exactly - was just reading a book about the beginnings of id, and they made Wolfenstein in just a couple of months. This was with only about 5-6 guys. Commander Keen was made in their evenings/spare time while they were keeping their full-time jobs at Softdisk.

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The new Thief is coming guys!!

That just made my day more then anything!

Still we can't wait for this mod too!

Keep on going guys you made great work so far :wub:

Edited by Aryx

tzl1l.png

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And as what we have seen with some of the fan missions already made with the dark engine, it was said, & rightfully so, that some of those missions equaled or surpassed those in the original games!

 

So again...Who needs T4 at all when we have the DarkMod?!!!!!!

 

 

 

Matt

 

Well give credit were credit is due; Looking Glass Studios weren't able to spend 8+ years working with their tools to figure out the best way to use them. The fact that they got the quality of the original episodes from buggy software that was still beta for them is simply amazing.

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

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<BR>Well give credit were credit is due; Looking Glass Studios weren't able to spend 8+ years working with their tools to figure out the best way to use them. The fact that they got the quality of the original episodes from buggy software that was still beta for them is simply amazing.<BR>

 

 

I'm not discrediting LG, I am praising the FM authors - they are an amazing group of people!

 

I loved the original games (1 & 2) , as much as I loved many of the fan missions. I just will be in no hurry at all to buy T4 when it comes out because of the darkmod, and presumably all the fms there waiting to be played. Those FM's will satisfy this thief addict.

 

 

T4 will not be a must-have, but will rather be a curiosity, presumably another good "BIG FM "game to play. Guessing their engine will do it a little more than the DM, but who knows, possibly the T4 crew will mess up some basic thief elements like what happened to T3 ( hope not). It seems to me DarkMod is all we need. I have the utmost confidence that the Darkmod deveolpers here know exactly what makes a good thief engine; and I think we will be bowled over by some of the talent put into the creation of a number of the DarkMod fm's. So what is all this T4 excitiment about? It'll be good to play, sure - but no hoopla. If we did not have a darkmod, only then it would be REALLY EXCITING

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  • 2 weeks later...

So I saw the announcement and I'm going to put in my two cents:

All we can do is wait. I think the team has seen The Dark Mod. If not, someone should create an account on their site and make sure they do. That way they can see "OMG, this is what the community is already doing." It will give them something to keep an eye on as they develop their game.

Where do the TDM fan missions go?

What kind of things seem to be popular among FM devs in their world?

What types of missions seem to create the most buzz?

TDM is going to be hard to live up to. Its made by fans of the originals. Its doing a lot of things we wanted to see in the franchise, but never got to. If they want to make a game that appeals to us, the hard-core thief fan base, then you bet your butt they're going to be paying attention to the Dark Mod. If we pan the game outright, then we're not going to tell our friends to go check it out, or worse for them, we may warn people against it.

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I don't agree fully with you New Horizon. By appealing to the Hardcore audience you basically get free publicity. That audience will make websites for the game, talk about the game to people who are unaware of it, and encourage those who haven't played it to play it.

 

I think we're likely to see a meeting point of new and hardcore. Because it would be unfeasable to make a game which is dedicated entirely to the hardcore fans and unplayable due to difficulty for new comers. I think the most likely aspects which will be adjusted for the hardcore fans are the level themes, the story and the lock picking.

 

Making a 'hardcore' game is a stupid idea imo. Why make a game that will essentially force new players to go back and play through a 13 year old game to get into the mood and understand the new one?

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I think we're likely to see a meeting point of new and hardcore. Because it would be unfeasable to make a game which is dedicated entirely to the hardcore fans and unplayable due to difficulty for new comers. I think the most likely aspects which will be adjusted for the hardcore fans are the level themes, the story and the lock picking.

 

Making a 'hardcore' game is a stupid idea imo. Why make a game that will essentially force new players to go back and play through a 13 year old game to get into the mood and understand the new one?

 

I'm disappointed that more games don't follow the approach of the Silent Hunter series, where you can dial the difficulty settings to get the full range of experience from "arcade" to "simulator." It seems like once you have the "simulator" settings in place, you've definitely pleased the hardcore fan, and from there it's fairly easy to dial them down and add a lot of auto-decision makers for the casual player.

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