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Elite Guards (version 1)


Springheel

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Ok, after much trial and error, here is my first version of elite guards. It was hard to walk the line between armour that is ornate and visually distinctive without being too fantasy, but hopefully this fits. The elite guard should look competent, confident, and well-equipped. This one has a crossbow hanging from his belt and uses a bastard sword. I was imagining a bronzy-gold colour to much of the armour.

 

eliteguard1.jpg

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It's a great design and well drawn, but it just doesn't look like anything you'd ever see in the Thief universe. Granted, we've never seen elite guards in the Thief universe before. I had the same problem with the elite builder concept. They do still look too fantasy RPG-ish.

I think you should make them more real world medieval-ish. I loved the city guards heavy armour design in Gothic 1, it's heavry armour in an RPG, but still looks real.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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the elite builder concept. They do still look too fantasy RPG-ish.

 

The elite builder concept was taken directly from historical armour, actually. This one, not so much. But then, Thief has never been exactly historically realistic anyway.

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It was hard to walk the line between armour that is ornate and visually distinctive without being too fantasy, but hopefully this fits.

I think it looks good. One thing I would change. That belt he has strapped on, is this the one to hold the crossbow? IMO it makes the entire image look a bit roguish. And maybe you should add some spikes or pointy tip to the shoes. They are looking the same as the tug shows from your other picture.

Gerhard

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nice concept

 

but its a guard and not a warrior who goes on the battlefield...

i think an elite guard should be fast so it have to wear light armor(combination of leather and some chain(for example across the neck))..the crossbow is a good idea...(also how about a horn?it would alert al guards in vicinity,and he would use it when totally lost sight of the thief...)

 

he should also have antibj helmet, and shortsword.hm or how about a cutlass: swordcavalry1.jpg

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I agree wioth that Atti. Elite guards are not just tanks, they are better in every way than the regular guys, so I think you should make them look different from the regualr guards but not so armoured. They are better becasue of their superior fighting skills, teamwork and morale. I want these guys to be able to chase the thief as well.

Also I think it would be a good idea to start an ideas thread about a charcater before drawing/modeling it like I did with the haunt, then we can get these points in before we spend time on a drawing/modeling.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

character models site

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Also I think it would be a good idea to start an ideas thread about a charcater before drawing/modeling it like I did with the haunt, then we can get these points in before we spend time on a drawing/modeling.

 

Very good point. I think I've given other people the same advice and then failed to take it myself. :rolleyes:

 

Ok, well, before I bother with another version then, let's discuss what we want elite guards to be like.

 

My view of elite guards is that they are better-equiped than even professional guards. I did that by giving them better armour, but perhaps that's not the way to go. Although I thought it was common in T2 for guards to have plate armour on.

 

So if it isn't the armour that makes them stand out, what should it be? I think elite guards should be distinct even as a silhouette.

 

As for weapons, they should definitely be using something more substantial than a shortsword. I think an extra-long blade is appropriate, or something really nasty like a morningstar.

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I agree an extra long blade would be the way to go, but it should also be a sword that is quick, you can't really wield a bastard sword and move fast. Concerning the armor, i'm not sure, but i would suggest making it very sleek and fitting. Something that you would be able to move somewhat readily in but still be protected. Not weak leather armor perhaps, but a lighter form of metal?

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(disclaimer: this is just an opinion, and I know I'm not an artist or anything, but hope it's still okay to post here :) )

When I hear elite guard,

 

I think of a mercenary who's survived his share of battles. He knows the ins and outs of security, possibly having operated on both sides of the law in the past. An elite guard doesn't care who he serves, as long as the money's good. He won't take pride in wearing some noble's insignia, or expensively crafted armor. He's not there to be a showpiece and impress the lord's friends. He a professional, there to make sure that anyone who breaks in doesn't make it back out.

 

His equipment and armor is chosen for efficiency. He takes only what he needs to find those who do not wish to be found, and dispose of them. Anything that severely impedes movement is bad, since he knows he may have to chase after some agile intruder, or do some sneaking himself to catch a thief.

 

For the armor, I think of something relatively light all around, like leather or at most a chain mail shirt, with a plain but functional breastplate and back plate. Some sort of greaves and shin armor, but nothing too heavy. On the arms, maybe some vambraces on the forearms, but I wouldn't think any guantlets. He relies on his weapon guard to protect his hands in a fight, guantlets would just slow him down. He wants his hands free for rapid actions, like taking out that crossbow, throwing flares (maybe he could have a bunch of flares at his belt), etc.

 

For footware, some standard issue hard leather boots, possibly cloth wrapped to reduce sound. He's not too worried about getting hit in the foot during combat with thieves. He would rather keep mobility and stealth as an option.

 

Weapons: I like the no guantlets but handguards on the weapons idea. I could see him fighting with two weapons, a rapier and a dagger (both with bell guards). He knows he may have to fight a thief in a close in space where his longer weapon would get tangled up, and fighting with a weapon in each hand will also make him all the more deadly in combat. A rapier is a tad on the light side, but it can be used with one hand, and is enough to punch thru the leather armor most thieves wear.

 

Other equipment: Crossbow, flares (?), some kind of whistle/horn to alert others. All placed about his body for easy access.

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I realise you understand now that you don't need to coat him in so much armour, but I want to say that;

 

ANYTHING that looks different will be enough to let the player know they're up against something new and they should be careful. Even just a different helment (but you'd obviously want to change more than that to make it interesting).

 

Back in the old console game days, all they had to do was change the colour of the enemy, and after the initial caution, you then associated that colour with "harder". The colour just "looked dangerous".

 

The same thing happens when you see those "full helmet" guards in Thief 2. Their helmets are only slightly different, but after that first encounter, you really learn to HATE that helmet.

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We have to draw a distiction between the City Guard Elite, and the Mercenary Guard Elite (the guys the richest nobles can hire)

These are the City Watch Elite we're talking about here.

I see these guys as professional military men. Well trained and battle hardened, they're now reaching middle age and have been taken off military service and have been rewarded with being able to stay at home and do guard duties.

To have survived as many battle and hand to hand bloodbaths as they have, they are obviously very skilled, well trained and dangerous men in combat.

The Elite City Watch would have a standard uniform, just like the regular guards. They wouldn't have chosen it themselves.

I also don't think we need to get too hung up on how much weight they could carry in armour versus how fast they can move, we can allow a little suspension of disbelief here, and I think we do want these guys looking mean.

I think they should have a fighting halberd as standard, plus a shortsword for close combat, plus a crossbow.

The armour you have there is way too ornate. It looks like something guards would wear for ceremonal duties only, fighting gear needs to be a lot more robust and practical than that. IT would proably have to be replaced quite often and made in bulk.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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We have to draw a distiction between the City Guard Elite, and the Mercenary Guard Elite (the guys the richest nobles can hire)

These are the City Watch Elite we're talking about here.

 

They are? I'd never had any plans for a city watch elite. I had only suggested three types of guard. Amateur (house guards) Professional (which includes the city watch) and Elite. I wasn't assuming we would make elite city watch any more than we would make Amateur city watch.

 

Besides, all city watch should be wearing the same, standard-issue equipment I would think, regardless of how good they are.

 

Regardless, the image above was for regular old Elite guards.

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No, there was always a clear distinction in Thief between the City Guard (the police force) and private security guards hired by rich people.

The private guards had those purple and yellow checkered tuincs with chanmail underneath. I think you could do a variationof that for our elite private guards.

I assumed we were having at least 2 levels of guard for every faction

Hammers - regular and elite

City Watch - regular and elite

Private guards - regular and elite

 

We already have the regular versions of all of these, so just the elite ones to do.

I can come up with m,y own concept for the elite house guard based on Thief and real world armour if you like.

Edited by oDDity

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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How about size/body development as an element of distinction? Not for all of them of course, but perhaps it could be one way to identify some of them as elites. They could be really big bruisers, like 6'5" tall, 350-lb (or more?) guys. Guys that you know you should not even risk messing with, just from looking at them, because they will hand you your ass (as it should be in Thief!). I for one like knowing that I am less powerful than them - it forces the urgency of being a Thief on me when I play. One of the mood breakers for me personally in T3 was the fact that Garrett looked like a large man - as big as all of them. Like he really could take on a number of guards and expect to win. I know some people don't like the notion of Garrett being a wimp, and want to play a dextrous ninja-thief, and that's great and all - but I sincerely think he should be weaker. It's for the gameplay. It's not Deathmatch - it's Thief. I like the idea that the Hammers were big hulking ("bigger/stronger/better/holier than the rest of us") dudes you just do NOT want to mess with. I think that's something that conveys a powerful mood when you're playing. Heh, it's funny - there was a guy at my gym (a bouncer at a club in fact) and man, he's just a hulking beast. A freak of nature. People get out of his way when he's coming. His voice is a low boom when he talks. That's what I envision as one freakin' intimidating guard.

 

Again, not all of them - perhaps just one variation of the elite.

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I assumed we were having at least 2 levels of guard for every faction

Hammers - regular and elite

City Watch - regular and elite

Private guards - regular and elite

 

I thought that too (including elite pagans...fun!), I just wasn't separating the private guards and city watch into different factions. No matter. If you want elite city watch I see no reason not to have them. The only question is how to make them visually distinct when they use the same standard equipment as the regular watch.

 

Unless we make the elite watch be of a higher 'rank' or something. Like the captain of the guard, or whatever. Or like how riot police look different from regular cops. We should be somewhat consistent with the weapons though...if the regular watch uses bows, then the elite ones should use bows too.

 

Actually, do we need to have a discussion about who uses which kind of weapon? Or is that something that can be addressed fairly easily after the models are created?

 

I can come up with m,y own concept for the elite house guard based on Thief and real world armour if you like.

 

Be my guest. I never got the sense you needed much concept art anyway. :)

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I think we can take on board Dave's point about making at least the mercenary elites physically bigger and more intimidating, and about making our thief smaller and slight.

I think the riot police comparison is best for the city guards. These are the guys called in to do the tough jobs. They should have shields and better helmets and better weapons, and maybe a litle heavier armour as well.

The regualr Watch could have short bows, and the elite have longbows with more damage and longer range, and they'd be more accurate with them as well. ALso I think the regualr watch should have only short swords while the elites have a halberd and a short sword. That way they have everything covered from long range, to extended melee, to close combat. I'd love them to be able to trip the player with their halberd (they were used for this in RL as well)

 

The mercenary elites would be big bruisers, with big weapons - bastards swords and a dagger and a heavy crossbow.

I'm thinking of keeping them light armoured, just chainmail and a tunic with the no-BJ helmet as well. THese guys actually enjoy killing (as do the reguaklr mercenary)and this should be reflected in their barks, whereas the city watch/elite are far more professional about their business.

 

We dont need to worry about weapons now, no, any AI can use any weapon we make at a moments notice, by being given the correct animation set, but it's best to get the concept of how the various AI are armed cleared up.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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Be my guest. I never got the sense you needed much concept art anyway. :)

I wouldn't say that - your builder priest concept was the very reason I joined the mod in the first place.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

character models site

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Just some reference sites I looked up real quick, maybe some ideas can be drawn from these:

 

1. http://www.xenophongi.org/rushistory/medievalarmor/tarch.jpg

2. http://www.cs.usu.edu/~watson/bartholomew/...chArmor/10c.jpg

3. http://www.cs.usu.edu/~watson/bartholomew/...chArmor/10h.jpg

4. http://reflexpoint.homestead.com/files/bascinet.jpg

5. http://www.play.net/images/armor/reinforced_leather.jpg

6. http://www.play.net/images/armor/light_leather.jpg

7. http://www.play.net/images/armor/augmented_chain.jpg

8. http://www.play.net/images/armor/full_plate.jpg

 

I didn't draw any of these, just found them on various websites real quick, I'll get back to sketching soon, I have to finish an English essay tonight and prepare for SAT's this week though.

Edited by kfmccall
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I think we can take on board Dave's point about making at least the mercenary elites physically bigger and more intimidating, and about making our thief smaller and slight.

 

I agree. I had tried to do that in the concept art already. Maybe that would be all it takes then.

 

Rather than giving elite city watch 3 different weapons, I'd rather just make them really effective with the weapons they have. They can draw and fire a bow faster than a regular guard, and with better aim. They can swing their sword faster than a regular guard, and may have special kinds of attacks that other guards don't have. They may feint, as well, to get past a parry. I don't think we can give them shields if they are also going to have bows, unless it is a small buckler of some kind.

 

As for the elite mercs, I think people's points about big swords indoors are probably valid. So my vote would go for a really nasty looking morningstar. It could use the same animation as hammers/axes, and it's a weapon that would make me think twice about combat.

 

I have some other thoughts, but I think I'll start a new thread for that.

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For a city guard it would make sense to use halberds. The problem is that this would need a totally diferent fighting style. And triping the player doesn't really work, unless we give the player much more control over the character. In this case he would need to have control for getting up and also moves to avoid such a situation. I don't think that we want to code that. Especially when we consider that fighting should only be a last ressort. :)

Gerhard

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A morning star would require physics to animate correctly, I'm not sure if this is possible.

If it is possible, I was thinking of having this weapon on the haunts instead of swords. THe hand could be removed at the wrist, and the chain that's wrapped about their forearm could have a weight attached to it (originally for the drowning) and they could use this as a morning star. I never really though the longsword made any sense for these creatures.

I still prefer a shortish fighting halberd for the city watch elite as well as a broad sword and bow. I think a small buckler attached to their left forearm with two straps would still allow them to shoot a bow wouldn't it?

I got some good ideas form those links BTW, kfmc.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

character models site

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