How should one fight?

[DingDong]

Ive done the tutorial but so far I can only get up to the guard+hammerite before I get raped and can't defeat them. The combat is a bit awkward in that it isn't clear when your opponent wont block your strike, it seems kind of random and the only guaranteed time you can hit is during a very small window of a counter attack. I have had a lot of success just bunny jumping around my opponents and slashing like nuts but surely this can't be the way. Blocking seems to quit working once you have more than 1 enemy against you since they often attack both at once.

[Noisycricket]

Combat is meant to be too difficult to rely on as a sure thing, although there could be some tweaking left, i don't know for sure.

[demagogue]

As you say yourself, the guaranteed best time you can hit them is a counter-attack. In a real mission you should try to separate them so you can fight one-on-one and use counter-attacking effectively.

 

The best way at least I've dealt with multiple people (aside from running away), is to try to run around and come at one from behind, or as obliquely to the side as possible. You can also try directing one in front of the other so he limits the movements of the other, and that's worked for me before (but it's easier to do in narrow halls and streets than in the sparring ring).

 

Anyway, the most valuable lessons of the training mission sparring, IMO, are defeating the first three guys, and the rest after that is part of a mini-game, or just to teach you that fighting more than one guy is just naturally really hard ... It's a part of how the gameplay is supposed to work (is one way to look at it anyway).

 

Edit: And yeah, there may be some tweaks over time as the Mod matures. The fighting has still come a long way from early versions into a system that generally works pretty well now, but maybe some people out there might have some good ideas that might improve it. Also, there's something to be said, when deciding how to treat different situations, for going the route that makes fighting a little on the hard side rather than the too-easy side, which raises other problems. Fighting multiple people should be really hard.

[Springheel]

You're not supposed to be able to win against two opponents unless you're really lucky. You're smaller, less trained, and less well armed.

[DingDong]

Well I am not that badly trained! I managed to dispatch the Thug+hammerite combo (Did an overhead slash into the thug's head) but I do understand that it's not meant to be easy to fight at all. I would say that this game got that right - enemy numbers actually do make a very huge difference 1 on 1 you can generally win , 1 on 2 you have much less a chance.

[DingDong]

Well I have beat all 7 levels now, the pairs were all pretty easy now that I know what I am doing. 3 at once was hard because they kept pushing me out of the actual arena . It's overall a very good system but it annoys me a bit that the enemies keep running right into me and somehow blocking hits while being pressed up against me. Weird!

Edited October 18, 2009 by DingDong

[Tels]

Well I have beat all 7 levels now, the pairs were all pretty easy now that I know what I am doing. 3 at once was hard because they kept pushing me out of the actual arena . It's overall a very good system but it annoys me a bit that the enemies keep running right into me and somehow blocking hits while being pressed up against me. Weird!

 

Well, the just know how to do proper street-and-bar fights, not those fancy "sword-fights"

[Dario D.]

Well I have beat all 7 levels now, the pairs were all pretty easy now that I know what I am doing.

It's often the case that these games start out hard at first, then get easy (combat-wise). If the combat HERE gets too easy for veterans, maybe a "realistic combat damage" setting could be added eventually, to make yourself easier to kill (and maybe the enemies too).

Edited October 19, 2009 by Dario D.

[Springheel]

It's often the case that these games start out hard at first, then get easy (combat-wise). If the combat HERE gets too easy for veterans, maybe a "realistic combat damage" setting could be added eventually, to make yourself easier to kill (and maybe the enemies too).

 

We didn't have time to add many difficulty modifiers in, but we intend to allow players to have some control over HP and combat difficulty, the same way you can adjust the difficulty of lockpicking.

[STiFU]

Not releasing the attackbutton is also very powerfull, especially at the beginning of a round. Enemies will go in defense and you can line them up properly, eventually the weaker enemy will release his block and you perform a certain smash to the head and dodge his sword. This also works very well infight, when there's only one enemy left. It takes the heat out of the fight, so I can strike the enemy down with precise hits.

 

Overall, I like the fighting. Although the running attacks are really annoying, because you can't do anything besides blocking, while being pushed through the whole arena. You're pushed even longer if you have raised your sword and the enemy is blocking while running. This is why I try to keep the enemies rather close, so that they don't start running in the first place. I guess it would be better if the enemy just stopped, when he has reached you. Also I think the damage comes a little bit too early with the running attacks. The sword is still more or less behind the enemys head, but the player already loses hp.

[STiFU]

Just out of curiosity: Does anyone play with autoparry disabled? I tried it, but it's really hard. You just look a bit subconsciously into another direction and the block fails.

[Taffer418]

I wish you could use a longsword that does more damage but at the same time reveals you more and slows you down when drawn.

[Midnight]

First off, congratulations to all who worked and continue to work on this mod. It is beautiful, atmospheric, and best of all made by and for fans of this genre (and it shows). I apologise for the long post, but I've been playing since it was released (no download, installation or rendering problems by the way) and wanted to cover a few points about combat.

 

I've been playing with auto parry disabled, and it is very satisfying. The blocking mechanism is difficult to get used to at first, but once you master it the challenge of blocking each type of attack is extremely rewarding when you get it right.

 

I understand that as a thief you are naturally at a disadvantage in a fight and the aim of the game is to avoid combat, so I don't want to appear to place too much emphasis on combat, but I can't help but point out the few problems in the current combat model because it is so close to being the best close combat system I've ever come across.

 

Firstly, when fighting a guard, they will rush towards you and then stand right next to you, attacking about once every two seconds or so. If I stand still, blocking their attacks, the pause in combat as we stand next to each other feels comically unrealistic. They should attack, then back away a little and maybe try and circle me before attacking again.

 

Secondly, if I injure a guard before they have completed their attack, this doesn't deflect their strike at all. If I stab a guard before they have struck me, they should recoil and possibly back away and cover their injury with their hand for a moment. The way it is at the moment is extremely unfair, not to mention unrealistic (carrying out an attack when you've just been stabbed can't be that easy ).

The thief is already disadvantaged (I assume) with less armour and a less powerful strike, so this change would not level the playing field so to speak, but would at least make combat possible if you are both very skilled at it and paying close attention (timing the parry requires oodles of concentration ).

 

I also just wanted to add that I'm really impressed with the difficulty of the combat. Most games nowadays are becoming too much an exercise in hand holding, so it's refreshing to see something that requires this level of concentration and interaction.

[Mortem Desino]

Firstly, when fighting a guard, they will rush towards you and then stand right next to you, attacking about once every two seconds or so. If I stand still, blocking their attacks, the pause in combat as we stand next to each other feels comically unrealistic. They should attack, then back away a little and maybe try and circle me before attacking again.

Yeah...I miss the "dancing" that the guards did in T1/2 as well. Thankfully, all it needs is animation and additional code support.

 

Secondly, if I injure a guard before they have completed their attack, this doesn't deflect their strike at all. If I stab a guard before they have struck me, they should recoil and possibly back away and cover their injury with their hand for a moment. The way it is at the moment is extremely unfair, not to mention unrealistic (carrying out an attack when you've just been stabbed can't be that easy ).

The thief is already disadvantaged (I assume) with less armour and a less powerful strike, so this change would not level the playing field so to speak, but would at least make combat possible if you are both very skilled at it and paying close attention.

Same issue as above. Animations, animations, animations! And lots of animations go into this sort of game!

[Annatar]

I couldn't even get past level 2!

The way I see it that's just more incentive to be sneaky.

[DingDong]

The combat in this game is really good, in fact I completed all the missions in "assassin" mode where the goal was to kill every last guard and servant (And the lord/priest of course) preferably with a sword . The armor is pretty well done in that you can instantly tell where you can hit and where you can't. For this reason alone the regular guards are actually much harder to kill than hammers because you cannot stab them in the head from behind, you have to stab them in the face (or shoot an arrow in that region).

[Ishtvan]

Thanks for the positive feedback on the combat. Again, we have to acknowledge the game Mount & Blade for inspiration on the controls and everything. To answer the original question, one way to beat two opponents is to constantly circle around them, so that you keep the first opponent between you and the second opponent. As long as you keep that up, the second opponent can't reach you to hit you, and you can concentrate on attacking and parrying the first opponent. This becomes difficult when there isn't space to run around in.

 

Secondly, if I injure a guard before they have completed their attack, this doesn't deflect their strike at all. If I stab a guard before they have struck me, they should recoil and possibly back away and cover their injury with their hand for a moment. The way it is at the moment is extremely unfair, not to mention unrealistic (carrying out an attack when you've just been stabbed can't be that easy ).

That's kind of an intentional gameplay balancing choice. The player's attack is a bit faster than the guards', so if the guards couldn't complete their attacks after being hit, it would be too easy to wait for them to start their attack and then hit them before they can finish.

 

Also, we decided not to do any dramatic "stagger around when hit" animation, because that would make it too easy to keep hitting them after you've hit them once. However, if they're chasing you and you hit them, they will stop running after you and stand in place for a moment. This gives you time to run away. We tried to balance combat so that it's easier to slow them down long enough to run away, but harder to kill them.

 

Firstly, when fighting a guard, they will rush towards you and then stand right next to you, attacking about once every two seconds or so. If I stand still, blocking their attacks, the pause in combat as we stand next to each other feels comically unrealistic. They should attack, then back away a little and maybe try and circle me before attacking again.

I agree, and as others have said, additional animations should help make this feel more real in the future.

 

Side note: Has anyone been pushed out of the map by an AI yet? I have, and its not fun.