Things that could be improved

[Tels]

There is potential for drop-offs that would intentionally kill a player to become safely navigable by ledge-hanging then dropping.

 

True, but only if the player has no tools (no rope, or drop a crate, then jump on it etc.) I am not sure if there are really that many ledges that are designed to be deadly, but would not be after the reverse mantling.

 

(Not saying that your concern isn't true, just that it might not that big an impact as we think. Also, updating FMs isn't that impossible - if it really breaks a mission, I am sure someone can fix the FM).

[ungoliant]

if it really breaks a mission, I am sure someone can fix the FM).

 

queue in Fidcal rant.... now.

[Fidcal]

It could break maps but it would be an important development. (I'm sitting on the fence on this one. ) I think we should announce that a reverse mantle is a possibility and mappers should allow for it.

[ungoliant]

 

wow! well, I myself don't really oppose the idea, as long as you can't hold on to the ledge and shimmy sideways.

[Aprilsister]

If TDM is going to reach its full potential in being a living mod it will not be able to maintain full backwards compatibility with FMs. Its a nice idea and a great sentiment and all that but it is crippling.

[Springheel]

There is potential for drop-offs that would intentionally kill a player to become safely navigable by ledge-hanging then dropping.

 

The benefit gained from ledge-hanging would be fairly small. I'm having a hard time imagining a drop that is intentionally fatal to the player that would suddenly become survivable because of getting a six foot head start. You're right that it will be something to consider, however. I'm a very strong advocate of backwards compatibility.

[Melan]

If TDM is going to reach its full potential in being a living mod it will not be able to maintain full backwards compatibility with FMs. Its a nice idea and a great sentiment and all that but it is crippling.

Not necessarily. Thief FMs have been going for several years without changing the basic mechanics (not that it could be done without the source code). There have occasionally been new tools in the player arsenal, but they haven't caught on. The small number of radically different FMs (such as CoSaS: Mission X with its team-based play and the low-gravity planet from Keeper of the Prophecies) have been exceptions, not the rule.

 

It is possible there will be a Dark Mod 2 or a major mod branch in four or five years which would mean a radical overhaul, but that is not necessary for a mod to be living. Great FMs and a steady or growing number of contributors, more like.

[Tels]

Not necessarily. Thief FMs have been going for several years without changing the basic mechanics (not that it could be done without the source code). There have occasionally been new tools in the player arsenal, but they haven't caught on. The small number of radically different FMs (such as CoSaS: Mission X with its team-based play and the low-gravity planet from Keeper of the Prophecies) have been exceptions, not the rule.

 

It is possible there will be a Dark Mod 2 or a major mod branch in four or five years which would mean a radical overhaul, but that is not necessary for a mod to be living. Great FMs and a steady or growing number of contributors, more like.

 

I think what Aprilsister was trying to say is that you cannot add new features to the core mod (what FMs do is entirely their own thing, they can modify a lot of the game already) without breaking backwards compatibility, regardles on whether the break is big (player can run twice as fast, guards are blind), or small (player can reverse mantle, new lighting model makes things easier/harder to see), or almost nil (a new arrow type f.i. doesn't impact old FMs because the arrow not available in them).

 

As the saying goes, you have to break eggs to make an omelette. I am definitely with Springheel, we cannot break backwards compatibility nilly-willy, but then, we cannot forever stagnate - that would defeat the point of having an open-source, open-assets mod in the first place. One of our big advantages is exactly that you can modify *everything* in TDM[0]. And that allows bugfixing and adding new features - which is what we all love, developers and players alike

 

0: Certain things can only be done after D3 goes open-source, but that is nonwithstanding.

[MoroseTroll]

Well, here is my Catalyst AI Switcher (including source). As you can see from its name, this pretty simple utility switches Catalyst AI with three values: 0 (Off), 1 (Low), 2 (High). I've tested it with my Radeon HD 4770 + Catalyst 10.11 + Windows XP SP2. So, if you want, you can use the utility itself or its source to implement a workaround in TDM for Radeon users.

Edited December 3, 2010 by MoroseTroll

[MoroseTroll]

Double posting. Sorry .

Edited December 3, 2010 by MoroseTroll

[stumpy]

to stop a player from shimmering along a ledge the mapper then has to put in a ledge fence, or slope the ledge at an angle the player cant get past, or put a hole in the ledge the player cant get past, or just block it with a block the player cant get by.

 

or you could have an overlay that the player can shimmy along and you cant go beyond where it runs out. like the climbing texture used for the ladders.

[New Horizon]

Well, here is my Catalyst AI Switcher (including source). As you can see from its name, this pretty simple utility switches Catalyst AI with three values: 0 (Off), 1 (Low), 2 (High). I've tested it with my Radeon HD 4770 + Catalyst 10.11 + Windows XP SP2. So, if you want, you can use the utility itself or its source to implement a workaround in TDM for Radeon users.

 

Fantastic. Thanks.

[MoroseTroll]

I'd like to test my utility on every available Windows version, because I'm not sure that it will work on them. After this, you guys can just implement my code into TDM as an option for Radeon users, if you wish. I think it would be nice to help them get rid of switching Catalyst AI from High to Low or even Off every time they want to play TDM. Of course, some Radeon users have just set it to Off, but in this case all other games suffer in performance.

Edited December 3, 2010 by MoroseTroll

[7upMan]

MoroseTroll, how exactly is this tool used? Does is automatically switch Cat AI off when starting to play TDM, and switches it on when exiting? Or do you still have to do it manually?

[MoroseTroll]

Extract CAIS.exe into your TDM's folder and create this simple TDM.bat file:

CAIS 1
tdmlauncher
CAIS 2

The first line is switching Catalyst AI to Low (in my case it's well enough to run TDM). The third line is switching Catalyst AI to High, thus allowing all other games to work at full speed. Then all you need is to create a shortcut to this bat-file and use it to run TDM.

Edited December 4, 2010 by MoroseTroll

[7upMan]

So, when I switch CAIS to 0, Catalyst AI should be off? Because thats necessary to stop the sky from spinning, at least on my rig (Radeon HD5770).

[STiFU]

This is not mirrors edge. Built in acrobatic animations (even if its just an increase in mantling animation speed) are a no no.

wow! well, I myself don't really oppose the idea, as long as you can't hold on to the ledge and shimmy sideways.

I don't understand why you have such a problem with Mirror's Edge. Despite being an awesome and challenging game (on high difficulty setting), a thief would greatly profit from some of its movement-techniques. A lot of what has just been said to be in scope for the future actually originated from a thread of these forums that discussed the possible implementation of Mirror's Edge Movement. I for one would love the shimmy-sideways move, as you can cleverly bypass AI this way, opening up new ninja-style ways for ghosters. Even a drop-to-ledge-and-hold would be awesome, as you can just drop to a ledge, wait for an AI to pass by and climb up again.

 

To me, a thief is supposed to be very agile!! Changes like that are bound to make gameplay more interesting, because the player has simply more options than just sneaking to a dark or unreachable place and waiting for an AI to pass by. Of course the difficulty might suffer with new movement features like this, but mappers would have to adjust in the future and make their maps more challenging.

[ungoliant]

I have no problem with mirrors edge at all. In fact I <3 mirrors edge, and spent a long time playing time trial missions after beating the campaign. However... TDM is not mirrors edge. Thats all I'm saying. Different game. As mentioned before, TDM should not end up being a game that revolves around a player needing 'skillz' to succeed.

[STiFU]

Hehe, good thing we're on the same page here. I also spent most time with the timetrials and finished all the speedruns.

 

Anyway, if you use special skills in a game, it feels that much more rewarding if you succeed. And opening up new ways is never bad in my eyes. Despite, there's not really a skill requirement for pressing some keys to have the player hang down a ledge, is there?

[MoroseTroll]

7upMan: That's right, "CAIS 0" switches Catalyst AI off.

I must admit that there is a flaw on my side - the utility itself does work as it should, but bat-file doesn't . I think I should try to incorporate the CAIS code directly into the TDM Launcher. Until then, I think CAIS is nearly as worthless.

[ocn]

Has anyone else sniggered at the animation of the rear on the Latern bot? It might just be my dirty mind, but I find it a little hard to take seriously. Perhaps a redesign is appropriate, I don't know.

[Sotha]

Has anyone else sniggered at the animation of the rear on the Latern bot? It might just be my dirty mind, but I find it a little hard to take seriously. Perhaps a redesign is appropriate, I don't know.

 

Oh, I never saw it like that. I just thought that it is the steam construction: you need to have a gas cylinder with a piston on it.

[ocn]

Oh, I never saw it like that. I just thought that it is the steam construction: you need to have a gas cylinder with a piston on it.

 

I wish my mind was pure and clean again.

[demagogue]

I made a list of the top branch-versions I'd like to see, if only for the same of dreaming.

 

- TDM Multiplayer

- Stand-alone TDM (or TDM-lite)

- Scifi assets & tools

- Contemporary (& early 20th Cent) assets & tools

- Parkour (Mirror's Edge) moves

- Ninja equipment & moves (and oriental assets)

- Economic sandbox gameplay. (A living city with a working economy. AI do jobs, make money, spend it on things like their business & loot. You can steal their loot and fence it; buy warehouses, guards, ships, political office, etc, to expand a criminal thieving enterprise.)

 

I don't have any illusions and know full well these would change TDM into a different game, but that's why they are branch-versions and IMO would be fun in their own right. I don't think of it in terms of competition with the main mod; but it's true there isn't enough time, people, & resources to do everything and you have to focus & set priorities.

 

But anyway, what I do know is if a branch-version were contemplated, *here* is NOT the place to do it. Someone would need to start its own thread and keep its work contained to its own thing. This should be the first thing anyone knows when they think about game-changing alterations.

[ungoliant]

You wish for TDMM?