Dagger fall - hitting things with a sword

[Mr Lemony Fresh]

Hello, When I played daggerfall, I thought the way you thrust your sword was kind of neat. For those who haven't played, the mouse view locks while you swing so you can strafe around but you can keep your screen centred on the enemy without much effort..

 

In dagger fall, of course all you can do is move forward and backward, left and right while you attack.

 

But in dark mod, it's hard although possible to move in a circular motion around an enemy while you attack them although it doesn't do much good.

 

How do you think this compares with the darkmod's sword swinging?

Edited July 13, 2010 by Mr Lemony Fresh

[Bikerdude]

cant vote, never played daggerfall.

[demagogue]

One of the design philosophies of TDM is to try not to suck the player into what amounts to a game-within-a-game with its own interface rules, but keep the general interface consistent throughout the game, and then relatively hands-off at that. This applies to fighting as well. So the Daggerfall system runs against that philosophy, even though it has its own interesting dynamic if you like low-level control of sword play. Also in Dark Mod, usually the supreme goal isn't to win the fight so much as to get past guards, so being able to skirt around them is an essential feature of the gameplay.

 

Sometimes the question isn't which feature is "better" or "worse" in isolation, but which is most appropriate for the game as a whole. And in this case that system doesn't seem the most appropriate for Dark Mod, although it has its own cool elements which might be good for another game.

[Xarg]

Saw Daggerfall being played once, guy couldn't get past one fight, trying to play it 'properly'... couldn't kill this one NPC. My friend jumps on, and window wipers the NPC to death in like 4 seconds. I think I'll go with TDM.

[Mortem Desino]

I played some Daggerfall when I was still a munchkin. Big problem with such a scheme: mobility while fighting. Mouse+Keyboard duo control was just an infant at the time of Arena & Daggerfall. Besides: left-right-stab-overhead really didn't make much difference in daggerfall -- it was all controlled by those damned dice rolls. In Dark Mod, direction of attack actually makes a difference.

 

Dark mod solves mobility by not locking your view, and taking mouse movement FIRST rather than LAST. Anything that takes control away from the player (locking your view for combat, 'sucking you in' for lockpicking, etc) should be frowned upon in a first-person "immersive" environment

[stumpy]

I always played as a werewolf in daggerfall, as it gave regen and other stuff like big fangs and sharp claws.

[GameDevGoro]

As far as I can gather the type of combat going on in Daggerfall is OK for being an RPG. Though I don't think many will say that the combat system is that good in general but it works quite well in Daggerfall.

And since Daggerfall doesn't allow such movement of the player as TDM does, it might be hard to determine how such combat would work in TDM.

 

I'd place my money it would be rather cumbersome. I'll stick with TDM's combat as it is.

[Mr Lemony Fresh]

I noticed 2 people chose the 4th option. I wonder if those people could tell me whether it was

A- because they dislike the sword

B- because the sword is without use or

C- because they prefer to play it hard

 

Or a mixture of the 3?

 

I added a new poll option which I think might suit some people.

[Diego]

Well, The only time I used the sword was in the training mission.

[Mr Lemony Fresh]

I can't help but think that it's a little odd that a thief would bring a sword to rob something like a mansion with no intention of using it.

 

Maybe it's time to consider making it more of an optional item rather than labelling it as one of the necessity items. Perhaps bring in the option of a dagger since you need to be stealthy, and save the sword for when someone finally makes a mission with monsters you actually want to hit with a sword.

 

I know when i played thief, a sword was always useful when attacking a group of burricks, but was never the best choice of attack at any other time. You didn't even need to slice the crab men, you could knock them out which made some sense since they were bipedal and easy enough to sneak up behind.

 

And us for being of use as a last resort weapon, does anyone continue playing that state if they are found out? if they are found out at all? And if they do continue, don't they sneak into the shadows?

I know my finger is quick to find the F9 button if I accidentally make an epic noise when trying to reach past a few jars of preserved jam to grab hold of an ornamental goblet.

 

Any thoughts along those lines?

[jaxa]

There should be more things to cut, like cobwebs or brush or ropes (physics/trap trigger?).

[Berny]

"There should be more things to cut, like cobwebs or brush or ropes"

 

That's right. i would love that (secrect corridor behind a bush/banner)

Edited July 8, 2010 by Berny

[Diego]

I can't help but think that it's a little odd that a thief would bring a sword to rob something like a mansion with no intention of using it.

 

Maybe it's time to consider making it more of an optional item rather than labelling it as one of the necessity items. Perhaps bring in the option of a dagger since you need to be stealthy, and save the sword for when someone finally makes a mission with monsters you actually want to hit with a sword.

 

I know when i played thief, a sword was always useful when attacking a group of burricks, but was never the best choice of attack at any other time. You didn't even need to slice the crab men, you could knock them out which made some sense since they were bipedal and easy enough to sneak up behind.

 

And us for being of use as a last resort weapon, does anyone continue playing that state if they are found out? if they are found out at all? And if they do continue, don't they sneak into the shadows?

I know my finger is quick to find the F9 button if I accidentally make an epic noise when trying to reach past a few jars of preserved jam to grab hold of an ornamental goblet.

 

Any thoughts along those lines?

 

Yeah, it's supposed to be important for when you get caught, but I also prefer quickloading. I don't like quickloading, feels like cheating, but I also don't like messing up a perfectly executed stealth mission.

Edited July 8, 2010 by Diego

[LEGION]

I feel exactly like Diego. That´s why I thought in the past of a (optional) limitation for saving or loading during the mission.

But last night, as I replayed DarkMod after almost two months, I found myself sitting out situations rather than reload and it was fun. (I always avoided this in the past because of the disappearing footsteps-bug after AI´s saw me)

 

I never played Daggerfall but from how you describe it TDM seems to be the next step from this system...

 

The sword/fighting-system in TDM I can´t praise often enough! Really, the difficult-option is working quite well! As I played with the Medium-skill I very often could kill guards with three slashes without hurting myself and now, as I play with the expert-skill it feels damn good. The sword should be a last resort and because of that the actual system is so damn good, because you never feel sure enough to take every guard that crosses your way, I´m very happy with the system!

 

As for the need of a sword: Well as I said, it´s a kind of insurance policy. And it can add greatly to the atmosphere if just seen on the screen. In Thief 1 I always took it out in Cathedral-like missions as I sneaked around, I just felt more secure with it. And I liked to backstab Haunts. And I loved the BlackSword. (especially after the patch from NamelessVoice and some other with an optional new skin for the sword - I very often pushed the Block-key to just look at the sword, this is sth I do still in TDM, I very like to just watch swords)

 

So, the sword is important for me, though I really use it very sparingly. Because of this I would like too more situations there you have to use it to get through sth and so on.

 

Ok, I´m drifting away, but look at this shot:

 

 

This areas are for me the places the sword was made for. Just to see I have drawn the sword gives me the creeps. In a positive way. (hey, I never used this phrase before)

Edited July 8, 2010 by LEGION

[plasticman]

In Thief 1 I always took it out in Cathedral-like missions as I sneaked around, I just felt more secure with it.

What a nice example for a failing security policy.

[Springheel]

Perhaps bring in the option of a dagger since you need to be stealthy

 

The "short sword isn't stealthy enough" argument falls kind of flat when we're talking about a thief who routinely carries a bow and quiver full of arrows.

[LEGION]

@ the guy made of plastic: If you mean the visibility: the black sword was invisible.

[Midnight]

I only quickload when I die. I try my best to ghost every level I play, but if I alert a guard, or have to confront a guard, I'll continue to play the level. I actually enjoy it when this kind of thing happens, it feels like it could be in a heist film or something: "Everything was going according to plan, but as I was about grab the diamond I took my eye off the guard in the next room and didn't notice when he turned around. I was left with two choices: Stand and fight, or run like the dickens...". It seems wrong to quickload and spoil these little emergent moments.

 

After a lot of sword practice, I'm actually quite good at it now. I still die occasionally (especially if there's more than one guard), but the sword fighting mechanics are spot on in my opinion. I still wish that the enemy wouldn't just stand there but instead try circle / flank you as I think it's actually too easy right now (many people will hate me for saying that ), but I definitely feel that sword fighting is a necessary fallback sometimes for when things go wrong. I'd agree that it could be relegated to an optional item in the shop so that you get to choose if you want the sword as a backup or go full stealth (and save some cash for other stealth tools), but this has always been something mappers are in control of.

Edited July 8, 2010 by Midnight

[Springheel]

Swords can be dropped in the purchase screen, though I know some mappers skip it for some reason.

[LEGION]

It seems wrong to quickload and spoil these little emergent moments.

 

I completely agree with you. But sadly I suffer from the 'love to push the quickload-button'-disease. But I´ll try to see it more as a game and not as an alternate Life where failure is not an option on future attempts. I know there is put a lot of work into AI´s but as I experienced guards loosing sounds after seeing me, this spoiled a much of immersion for me, sadly... And it seems no one knows what causes this.

[plasticman]

@ the guy made of plastic: If you mean the visibility: the black sword was invisible.

Yes. Constantine's Sword had no effect on the lightgem -- I forgot about this.

[Mr Lemony Fresh]

Hi everyone, Sorry about the late post, but i was having difficulties logging in and didn't bother with it because I was busy.

 

I played the training mission again today and noticed something new, i hadn't known I could block in different directions, i guess I should have but I don't remember noticing a hint for it. That made it a lot easier.

 

A few new things I noticed when playing.

 

Is it just me or are the attacks you deal slightly randomised in where they land? even when hitting stationary targets i tend to miss the head even though I'm dead on.

 

Still I have some difficulty reacting to enemy movements when my sword is drawn, Please consider the following changes.

 

-Allowing the player to simply point at what he wants to block or stab in order to hit it, and the game automatically detecting what angle to hit eg: top of bounding box for limb/head/torso/ = overhead

centre of bounding boxes for torso and middle and bottom of head = stab

left side of head/left arm/left leg = left thrust

right side of head/right arm/right leg = right thrust

 

-OR Visual or audio indicators to fill in the void of feeling and touch that would otherwise tell you that your sword was at swing power or for sense, that you are physically able to swing it. (like a bar or something similar to 'secret of mana III' [seiken densetsu II] on the snes) or an audio equivalent like grunts similar to when your bow is about to give way.

 

I still think there is room for improvement though. I know there are some pros on this forum or people who play a lot more, but at very least, please do me the favour of indicating that you are carefully considering what i say if you reply as i often put a lot of thought and care into it, and it's often alarming to see so many blunt dismisses, I often feel like I'm trying to talk to a hivemind and I can't get a grasp of an individual consensus.

 

EDIT: To tell you the truth I'd prefer the latter of those two ideas, but I feel like anyone of them would make the experience more enjoyable.)

Edited July 12, 2010 by Mr Lemony Fresh

[Midnight]

I often feel like I'm trying to talk to a hivemind and I can't get a grasp of an individual

 

Lol. Join us, join us now!

 

I don't think the attacks are randomised, but sometimes you might miss because you hit armour or a guards helmet etc. The blocking is fairly simple as it is, there are only four directions a guard can attack from so press the block key when the mouse is moving in the appropriate direction. I think this is actually easier / more intuitive than simply aiming at what you want to block.

 

Not sure quite what you mean about a visual bar for feedback. What exactly is it you're having difficulty with? There's no strength modifier so a swipe with the sword will always be at full strength. Maybe I'm not understanding what the problem is, can you clarify this at all?

[Mr Lemony Fresh]

As for the randomised attacks, or course I might be wrong and it might be a bounding box problem which I'm sure is in the mod team's sights.

 

With the visual and audio help, i mean the same kind of thing that tells you that you're carrying a body of that your bow is about to collapse, that kinda thing. Except in this case to indicate when you're between attack animations so you can make another action at just the right time, but i don't know how that will help now because...

 

I just played again and realised you didn't actually have you be pointing at where the enemy was hitting to block... (WHY DID NO-ONE TELL ME )

I actually had fun when i went back and sparred in the training mission.

 

It seems that people were so busy reassuring me that the sword fighting system was good rather than checking whether I knew it that well

I would have guessed that i needed to point in the right direction to block, but the book hadn't told me that.

 

Now i think the sword fighting system is great, but I still think it can be improved.

 

When pressing the parry button, how about while your hold that button, you can keep changing the direction, so you can have it ready to defend when you've hit the guy and only have to think of the next direction to move the mouse.

Edited July 12, 2010 by Mr Lemony Fresh

[Midnight]

I just played again and realised you didn't actually have you be pointing at where the enemy was hitting to block... (WHY DID NO-ONE TELL ME )

I actually had fun when i went back and sparred in the training mission.

 

It seems that people were so busy reassuring me that the sword fighting system was good rather than checking whether I knew it that well

I hope you know you can pick up bodies as well.

I think it was mentioned that if there's a v2.0 of the Training Mission it would maybe get you to pick up a body as a lot of people missed this. Maybe a similar thing could be done for combat (i.e. "see if you can block all of the attacks from this guard" etc). Probably more work than is really warranted for what is supposed to be something you won't be using very often (though it's always good to be prepared).

 

 

Now i think the sword fighting system is great, but I still think it can be improved.

 

When pressing the parry button, how about while your hold that button, you can keep changing the direction, so you can have it ready to defend when you've hit the guy and only have to think of the next direction to move the mouse.

Or you could just use the auto parry option in the combat settings, it decides which direction to block based on what the AI is doing.