A few issues I have with blackjacking and approaching from behind

[Skaruts]

About approaching from behind, it seems impossible to do it. The only way to effectively blackjack an AI is if they're stationary, which gives me plenty of eternities to creep behind them silently, or if you catch a moving one passing by you. I would defend that a stationary target forces you to be as silent as you can, but moving AIs seem to behave the same way, and there's some problems with this:

 

The only way I see that allows you to catch up with them is by either sneak-running or normal walking (or running, obviously). But both options fail every time. They will always hear you. I'd hope there was a lesser chance to be heard when they're moving, as they would first confuse my steps for their own (awareness level 1, if you will), and then start wondering if they were hearing something else (awareness lvl 2), and then stop to listen but still not in alert mode (lvl 3), and then yes become alerted to your presence and turn around and search (lvl 4).

 

Of course, this describes something that might happen in seconds, giving a fast player only the chance to run in and BAM. But this might solve my other problem:

 

Most times where I quickly approach an AI and blackjack them, it doesn't work. There should be a slight delay to allow black jacking. Most of the time I'm quick enough to punch them as they're still saying "uh?" and they haven't even started unsheathing their swords, and it fails already.

 

I know this system is to make the game harder, but it's frustrating instead. A slight delay to simulate a "confusion moment", or something like what described above might make it more forgiving and less immersion breaking. And such a delay would be controlled by the AI difficulty settings. I'm playing on "forgiving", and it is quite forgiving, but not in these cases.

 

 

Another problem I noticed is that blackjacking AI with unsheathed swords from the back is likely to fail too. I'm not quite sure what's the problem, but at one time I had to reload the save quite a few times until I succeeded. And it seemed the problem was the angle at which I was attacking from. When I placed myself "strictly behind" (if you get what I mean, not even slightly sideways) then it worked. I did this twice with the same AI because I had to reload later on and hadn't saved afterward. I had the same problem again and had to adjust my position in relation to him.

 

I think AI with weapons should be allowed to be blackjacked from any direction, just as long as it's outside of their field of view. Currently I find this mechanic very "gamey" and a tad frustrating.

 

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want the game any easier. I just dislike when some mechanics are unfair or "gamey" or immersion breaking, etc.

Edited February 4, 2014 by Skaruts

[RJFerret]

Perhaps install the "Sound Alert & Blackjack Trainer" mission and use it for practice?

 

I haven't experienced the problem you describe. Quite the opposite, I find blackjacking makes the game too easy. But what you do describe sounds like you are approaching too close on a noisier surface. That mission has all surfaces so you can learn how close you can get without them hearing, and how far you can be.

 

The second part of your post makes me think that's more of an issue causing the first. If you aren't targeting where it'll work easily, might you be getting closer than necessary and alerting them needlessly?

[chakkman]

It's another topic, but i had some issues blackjacking a guar wearing a metal helmet yesterday. There has been a thread about the topic here, maybe you'll find some conclusions in the video posted: http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/15143-having-trouble-with-blackjacking-ai-seem-really-hard-video/

[stumpy]

you can't knockout guards with there swords drawn, there alert level is too high, you have to wait for them to resheath there weapons, or use a gas arrow.

[RJFerret]

Afterthought: you can even blackjack from directly in front of them if conditions are right.

[Skaruts]

It's another topic, but i had some issues blackjacking a guar wearing a metal helmet yesterday. There has been a thread about the topic here, maybe you'll find some conclusions in the video posted: http://forums.thedar...lly-hard-video/

Well, you can't blackjack guards with helmets. But that wasn't my issue. It was actually a thug in the Score to Settle FM.

 

you can't knockout guards with there swords drawn, there alert level is too high, you have to wait for them to resheath there weapons, or use a gas arrow.

Yes, but I'm talking about guards that haven't yet unsheathed their swords. I'm blackjacking them as soon as I get there, I hit them as they are still going "wtf?".

 

I haven't experienced the problem you describe. Quite the opposite, I find blackjacking makes the game too easy. But what you do describe sounds like you are approaching too close on a noisier surface. That mission has all surfaces so you can learn how close you can get without them hearing, and how far you can be.

The one I had in mind was on a cobblestone street (Score to Settle, the street where you start), which isn't the best, but still isn't the worse. I was chasing a thug at around 1 to 2 meters distance, and I quickly ran and hit. It failed. Again, I hit while he was still going "wtf?".

 

About the other thing, I wasn't alerting him. I could stay there all day and he wouldn't know. It wasn't even my arm movement (as far as I could tell) that gave it away, he would fail to be stunned literally at the very moment I hit him slightly sideways (a few degrees of angle).

 

I'll see if I can record some footage of these issues if I come across them again.

Edited February 4, 2014 by Skaruts

[chakkman]

Well, you can't blackjack guards with helmets.

You can, as the video shows... anyway, back to your problem.

[New Horizon]

Well, you can't blackjack guards with helmets.

 

Elite Guards, which are rare and I don't think are in many missions, are immune to blackjacking due to the heavy duty helmets they wear.

Guards with normal helmets can only be blackjacked from behind but become immune when their swords are drawn

Guards with no helmets can be blackjacked from any direction, but when their swords drawn they can only be black jacked from behind.

[RJFerret]

Ahs, check out the rest of the environment, is there a time the target crosses a less noisy surface? Do you have moss arrows? Mappers often design spots where it's more challenging to do things, and then times when it's easier, that way you as a player can choose what environment to exploit your skill ability. Or they design things and provide tools to mitigate the challenge. If the designer gives a tool to dampen sound, then fills the map with loud surfaces, guess what they expect players will do? Sometimes things are designed intentionally to be excessively challenging, so the player is encouraged to find another route around, or another time of approach.

 

Or have it so players get to choose, quiet carpet in a more lit area or louder wood floor in a darker area?

 

Remember, the opponent of this game isn't the AI, but the environment and how you work with it. Either way, it sounds like practicing your blackjack targeting in a less stressful space, so it succeeds on the first attempt might do more for you?

 

PS: For helmeted guys that you'd think can't be blackjacked, aim for the lower back of their head, top of the spine, back edge of the helmet, if you are intent on knocking them out. The targeting window is obviously intentionally smaller.

Edited February 4, 2014 by RJFerret

[chakkman]

Elite Guards, which are rare and I don't think are in many missions, are immune to blackjacking due to the heavy duty helmets they wear.

Guards with normal helmets can only be blackjacked from behind but become immune when their swords are drawn

Guards with no helmets can be blackjacked from any direction, but when their swords drawn they can only be black jacked from behind.

Ah... is there an elite guard in the mission "Business as usual"? Because i just can't blackjack the guy patrolling outside, who stays in front of a lit door for half a minute or so, before continuing his patrol.

[Skaruts]

Ahs, check out the rest of the environment, is there a time the target crosses a less noisy surface? Do you have moss arrows? Mappers often design spots where it's more challenging to do things, and then times when it's easier, that way you as a player can choose what environment to exploit your skill ability.

I didn't have much of a choice. I was blackjacking the thugs as they were returning to their hideouts, and two of them came together, I knocked one out, and then I needed to catch up to the other before the next one came. He would walk up the cobblestone street, which would be cobblestone all the way, I don't think I had moss arrows, and there was a third thug coming further behind.

 

I should note this wasn't even a must do thing, I had the mission nearly complete, I was just further humiliating the thugs for the fun of it, before I moved on. Whether they were conscious or not wouldn't have any bearing on my success, I had already succeeded without blackjacking almost no one.

 

It was just frustrating in terms of how the mechanics worked. If the floor was really loud I would expect the guy to immediately be on guard as I walked my first non-stealthy step, but cobblestone isn't that loud (doesn't seem to be) and, again, he barely had time to notice me. It gave me the same feeling an aimbot cheater in a shooter gives you: you poke your nose out of the corner and in 5 milliseconds you're dead. Considering how he only reacted as my blackjack was about 3 inches from his scalp I felt pretty much that way. Which is why it bothers me.

 

Ah... is there an elite guard in the mission "Business as usual"? Because i just can't blackjack the guy patrolling outside, who stays in front of a lit door for half a minute or so, before continuing his patrol.

I don't know. But if not, then it's probably what RJFerret mentioned, you need to aim for the neck. I have failed to blackjack every guards with helmets so far. I have to try what he said. Edited February 4, 2014 by Skaruts

[Xarg]

Elite guards are the guys with the giant helmets that have the faceguard grill things, and plate armour. You'll know an elite when you see him, and the only way hes going down is gas/fire (possibly sword but I don't bother with those monsters).

[chakkman]

Elite guards are the guys with the giant helmets that have the faceguard grill things, and plate armour.

That's him! Thanks, mate. I thought i was too stupid.

[New Horizon]

http://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Heads_Available_for_AI

 

The wiki has pics of what the elite guards look like. Scroll down a wee bit to see them.

[Skaruts]

It just occurred to me that most AIs when sitting on chairs are extremely paranoid. Is this set by the mappers or is it the behavior they all have at all times? Would be a bit more immersive to find AIs dipped in their readings or their card games, and completely oblivious to the world, once in a while...

Edited February 4, 2014 by Skaruts

[Springheel]

I don't know what the specific problem is in your case, but it should be possible to sneak up on moving guards on cobblestones without alerting them. You usually can KO guards for a second or two after they notice you as well. Could you possibly be hitting a low beam overhead or something? That and being too close (thus hitting them with your elbow ) are the usual culprits. A video would definitely help.

 

Don't know if you've seen this, but it might help.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V31S7w4qBcE

[Obsttorte]

The behaviour described (elite guards not koable and so one) is the default behaviour which can be changed via spawnargs. I'm not sure whether someone has ever done this, though.

 

When I started playing TDM bj appeared more difficult then in thief to me, too. But nowadays I think similar to RJFerret, it makes things quite easy (and boring).

[lost_soul]

Also, running up behind a guard and trying to knock them out is a no no. Unless you are on an extremely quiet surface like carpet, never run up to a guard. They will hear you and turn around.

 

 

In T1/2, you were able to do the above and run up to guards unless it was metal or tile.

[161803398874989]

Are you sure you're hitting them in the head/base of the neck?

[Skaruts]

That and being too close (thus hitting them with your elbow )

 

Might have been that. I'll try to record it if it happens again.

[Dworkin]

A slight delay to simulate a "confusion moment", or something like what described above might make it more forgiving and less immersion breaking. And such a delay would be controlled by the AI difficulty settings.

 

I agree. Imagine the situation in real life. You are in shadows, the victim passes your hiding spot, you make a few fast steps and BAM! Now what could the victim do in that short time period when he/she hears your steps? Maybe begin to turn around? Then what? The blackjack is already on the landing trajectory. Sweet dreams. Also, I highly doubt that any attacker would accidentally hit the victim with his/her elbow...

 

Of course, in a game different rules often apply to make it challenging enough. No problem there. But the players have often different ideas about what "challenging" is. Difficulty settings thus come into play so that everyone finds their game enjoyable. I think what Skaruts is saying is that while the game may be set to "easy", the blackjacking is set to "very high". And the answer he is getting here is "you have to try harder to learn it". But I think he shouldn't have to. Just like you don't have to learn rocket jump in Quake to make some nice frags and enjoy your game. If some of the players of TDM (even most of them) want the blackjacking set to "very hard", cool, good for them. But I think it would be nice if there was an option to make it more forgiving. If that's completely out of the table, fine, I did eventually learn how to do it and though I don't enjoy it one bit, it isn't ruining my gameplay experience (TDM is awesome game, I mean AWESOME ).

Edited February 6, 2014 by Dworkin

[Lux]

You know also you can walk up "semi close" to a guard from behind and Lean Forward to black jack, if you have it bound, and cover 2-3 feet of distance so you don't have to walk so close and possibly alert them. You can also lean forward out from the side of a path and black jack as they walk by.

[Skaruts]

I think what Skaruts is saying is that while the game may be set to "easy", the blackjacking is set to "very high". And the answer he is getting here is "you have to try harder to learn it".

 

I wasn't even thinking in terms of difficulty, really. I like hard games, just not so hard that it becomes boring and too quick-load dependent. I like to find a balance, and thief to me is more about the story and the "puzzle" that it is to get through guards and stuff like that. I like to ghost. And I didn't change the difficulty because I was still getting a feeling of what "forgiving" means in terms of gameplay.

 

What I was really thinking is that there seems to be no "grace period", as a youtuber called it (he thought the same too, but didn't lose time confirming it). The very moment they notice you, blackjacking is out of the question, no matter how many hairs distance it is from their head. It's what it seemed to me, at least. And that's kind of annoying. It screws with my suspension of disbelief.

 

And I have to agree with the elbow thing. It doesn't make sense when you think about it. In a upwards hand movement, the elbow never surpasses the hand. Extending the elbow forward requires a slight effort and leaning a shoulder forward. But I didn't want to point that out, I was already complaining so much...

 

But I still need to play more to see if it happens again and if it's the elbow I'm hitting or if it's really the lack of a "grace period". I certainly don't want it like it was on Thief 1 and 2 where you could nearly run around everywhere, the guards were as deaf as doors. That's no fun. But I want a bit of slack for fairness sake.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Skaruts

[Springheel]

What I was really thinking is that there seems to be no "grace period",

 

There IS a grace period though. I've bumped into guards, had them spin around and still KO'd them with a smack to the face. It's brief, but it's there.

 

And I have to agree with the elbow thing. It doesn't make sense when you think about it. In a upwards hand movement, the elbow never surpasses the hand.

 

Yeah, this one is an issue related to how the animation works. The animation is a straight-arm swing, more like you'd swing a heavy sword. So if you are too close, the blackjack is in FRONT of the target's head, and you hit their head with your arm/elbow instead. In real life you'd have much better control over your arm. Not sure of an easy fix for this one though.

[161803398874989]

There IS a grace period though. I've bumped into guards, had them spin around and still KO'd them with a smack to the face. It's brief, but it's there.

 

 

 

Yeah, this one is an issue related to how the animation works. The animation is a straight-arm swing, more like you'd swing a heavy sword. So if you are too close, the blackjack is in FRONT of the target's head, and you hit their head with your arm/elbow instead. In real life you'd have much better control over your arm. Not sure of an easy fix for this one though.

Your arm becomes part of the blackjack.

 

Would go well with nuGarrett's eye.

Edited February 6, 2014 by 161803398874989