kwc
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Posts posted by kwc
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I've just played the demo. Finished it a couple of times, playing around with stuff.
My observations:
1. Even at this stage, it's all kinds of awesome. You guys have achieved something truly great here.
2. It runs well; I didn't encounter any noticeable performance problems, except in some quite specific cases and even then it's very playable. Specs: Core2Duo E6400 ; 2GB RAM ; 7900GTO Settings: 1152x864, 2xAA, no v-sync (with v-sync the framerate sometimes dips lower than I'd like, I don't know why really. On the other hand, isn't Doom 3 capped at 60 FPS? I get tearing in some areas)
3. You got the atmosphere down, totally. When I first got into that attic room I was all "OH man that's what it's all about!"
4. I, too, had to lower gamma for optimal experience. I have a Samsung 19" CRT and I found the sweetspot somewhere around 1.25. Not that this will help anyone much, but hey.
5. Rope arrows are perfect
Now, for the negatives/annoyances. Please, take this as my humble contribution to the development or this mod.
The most serious bug I've found so far has been the blank menu when hitting esc during playing. It happened only once, and I see you're aware of it already, but just so you know.
I won't say anything about AI because I don't think I can tell you anything new. It works well enough to enforce and enable stealthy playing style and that's enough for such an early state of things
The bow zoom takes a touch too long to kick in, I think.
Sometimes when you try to place an object onto something else, it will shoot off in random direction. Kinda weird. On the other hand, rotating objects is a GREAT feature.
Now, the movement speed. I see lots of people complaining about the player moving too slow; I have another theory...
I've always felt that the view/movement system in Thief 1/2 was about as close to perfection as it comes in first person games. It was definitely one of the things that contributed greatly to the feeling of "being there", interacting with the environment. Your current system does fall rather short -in terms of feel, mainly- compared to that of the looking glass games. It's precise and versatile, but I felt there was something missing, so I fired up Thief 2 and also Thievery UT and spent nearly half an hour basically just prancing around
I came to the conclusion that what's missing is a just right amount of vertical head bob (I've seen this suggested before in this thread), and a certain sense of inertia. It's somewhat hard to describe, especially since I'm not a native english speaker, but the acceleration and decceleration to and from different movement speeds feels incredibly organic in Thief, and so does the feeling of weight. The vertical view bob also feels very natural and conveys very well the taking of steps, jumping, etc. TDM is not yet quite there in that regard; it feels more "floaty", less natural, and also contributes to the feeling of slowness, IMO.
Then there's also the issue of the FOV; I don't know what FOV Thief used, but perhaps it would be best to use a similar amount (although you probably do, already) or less. The wider the FOV, the more distorted the proportions are as you know and the harder it becomes to judge sizes and distances. Perhaps that has something to do with it as well, I don't know.
Another thing that somewhat bothered me was the way you hold objects; it feels like you hold them very far from your "body" (again, might be an issue with FOV) and the way that crates, for instance, trail behind as you move your view doesn't feel right somehow; the idea is sound in principle, but the implementation is not quite ideal. My guess is that it's probably the way they suddenly accelerate and then move at a steady velocity until centered again that creates this impression.
Those things are probably placeholders, so I don't want to nag too much, I just wanted to contribute my opinion.
Aside from the aforementioned issues and the odd bug, it impressed the hell out of me. Be proud of what you're doing. Very proud
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I've downloaded it (yeah, I admit it) it's not like it's going to bomb or anything. With so much hype and everything kids are going to piling up in front of gaming stores anyway.
I've come to, say, 2/5 of the game and I think I can give my opinion so far...
Story: cheesy... although I like the constant-first-person approach like in half life
Atmosphere and immersivenes: okay, this is no Thief, but it's easily the best new game I've played since half life 2 in this respect. It isn't so much scary as it is tense. It doesn't make you jump often, though it does happen. And the body awareness is GREAT here...
And then there are GUNFIGHTS... Now, this is where this game really shines. They are so over-the-top, exciting, frantic, destructive and thrilling that you'll be grinning in no time - if you like that sort of thing, of course. I do - although I still much prefer the introverted thief-like gameplay.
Also worth noting is that graphics are technically amazing, but art direction is REALLY bland in every respect. However, I find that for some reason it seems to work well for that game... there's a sort of a creepy sterility to everything around you.
The final verdict is... like, 9/10 for action, 4/10 for artistic value. There...
PS While the game itself is very linear, the AI, contrary to what some have said, doesn't appear to be scripted - for the most part at least. I've replayed many sections just to toy with different approaches and I've been impressed with the interactivity I've got. Lightyears ahead of other shooters. Try experimenting with grenades, different weapons, distractions... it actually works in this game... sometimes I felt like playing thief, and that's a hell of a compliment coming from me....
my 2 cents...
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If I recall, grappling hooks weren't going to be done at least for the first release. I'm not sure whether they're on the cards for later on - they're certainly not in the classic thief vein, although for a more ninja-style thief mod, perhaps they'd fit.
I think, though, that one of the things TDM is going to have to replicate is the incredibly fluid feel of clambering around in TDP/MA. When you're running around the rooftops, leaping with abandon, knowing instinctively when to hit jump again to grap onto the next surface, needing only to stop for a second to shoot a rope arrow at a wooden window box... Again, it's immersion epitomised, because it's so natural. Anything new that is introduced will have to live up to this - and it's where climbing gloves didn't cut it, and TDS' general lack of clambering didn't cut it.
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this is indeed something I liked about thief. No other game has had such a fluid, natural movement IMO. the way you mantle, the way you run and jump.. pure elegant bliss. this is one of the most important things in creating immersion...
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Count me in, I'm all for it, but I'll be damn happy even if it's the same old Thief verbatim copied into the new engine, so...
Hey, it's a toolkit afterall, which I view as more of a starting point to get folks going than a game with all the mechanics and resources set in stone... Once it's released, you'll be able to put stuff into it all you want...
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There are going to be rope arrows because the vast majority of Thief players love them. Of course they aren't realistic. This isn't a realistic game. It's a game about a thief who sneaks around in the dark while carrying a dozen plates, goblets, rolled up canvases, coins, bottles, and thirty or forty arrows, all without making a noise.
Arguing whether or not there's enough water in a crystal to put out a torch or how much strength it takes to climb a wall is pretty pointless when the basic game mechanics are inherently unrealistic. In the end, it's about making a game that's fun, not a reality simulator.
Yeah maybe I should have said what I said differently... of course rope arrows are cool, but IMHO vine arrows would be even better, but that's just my suggestion, and not a demand by any stretch
Vine arrows would be probably very easy to put in somewhere along the road afterall - no need for drastic changes in the code.My suggestion for vine arrows - perhaps instead of having them stick forever, you could retrieve them, but only by using a knife/dagger/something, which would take a LOT of time.
As for the comment on tha game basics being inherently unrealistic - actually I think the game basics are pretty realistic, apart from some elements where taking the realistic route would seriously hinder the gameplay an/or make it too tedious and frustrating - hence the unlimited inventory. Also, some compromises surely had to be made because the engine wasn't advanced enough at that time... my 0.02
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In almost all of London's history, police have never carried guns - they have a cudgel/club/nightstick/blackjack type apparatus, and even today most British police do not carry firearms. And guns, while quite common in western USA, were a rarity in 19th century London, something only wealthy aristocrats and soldiers would possess, even today England has one of the lowest levels of gun ownership in the world... I would prefer to see flintlocks over revolvers, but it wouldn't bother me if there were a few guns here and there. But most guards should be armed with a bobby's cudgel, not a sword, not a gun, although in a victorian setting a gun would make more sense than a bow and arrow. If you distribute gun-toting AI sparingly, they would not be a problem.
And if you think about it, why weren't there any guns in Thief? After all there were robots that launched explosive cannonballs, and mages that fired of fireballs - surely a Mechanist with the smarts to build explosives and robots would come up with a gun pretty quickly...
Ditto... that was exactly what I had in mind. But then, I think this is work for the community, once the mod comes out
You people are doing wonderful work "converting" Thief into D3 engine, and eventually folks are going to expand it further... And I would prefer flintstone rifles and pistols, because it would mean they would be of little use to Garrett (slow reload time, cumbersome). As for the guards with guns owning Garrett... Well, the point is NOT being seen... Garrett is a thief, not a warrior, remember? As for rope arrows... I agree climbing gloves are more realistic, but rope arrows are INFINITELY more fun, IMO. the perfect compromise would be a grappling hook, but I guess it would be a pain to code. SO my suggestion is, replace rope arrow with a vine arrrow and you're set. Vines are a really novel idea, and they're not altogether unrealistic - apart from the fast growth, but then, fast growth explained by magic isn't all that contrived if you ask me...
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There were some interesting suggestions proposed in this thread. I somewhat agree with obscurus on the victorian setting, I think when you look at thief, it's clear that although it has a certain medieval flair to it, the actual situation (proto-industry, mixed with more traditional elements, like religion, magic, itd..) isn't that far removed from, say, early 19th century. However, it wouldn't be good to go al the way IMO - I'm all for anachronisms, as long as they are not silly...
My (MY) idea of a nice setting would be something along these lines:
The city could be based (very vaguely) on 18/19th century London, with other elements mixed in for flavour - that means, a lot of gritty industrial complexes, but the majority of architecture would still be older in origin. Also, if you look at some of the old european cities, many of them have an "old" district of some sort, which is still standing strong after centuries - plenty of medieval and renaissance architecture. I guess it could be located so that it's basically the town "core" and from there the city expands outwards, with progressively newer architecture, and you could have those big industrial districts on the fringes of the city, and then the suburbs with massive victorian mansions as well as older sections which used to be separate towns/villages in yet another architectural style but are now engulfed by the ever expanding city. That way it wouldn't even be anachronistic to have different architectural styles IMO.
The bigger problem here is the life, the "pulse" of the city, which was very different in middle ages than it was in 19th century. In thief, folks are usually wearing those colourful baroque clothes, which (to me) suggest 15/16 century style.
The strong religious (builders) presence would be out of place in a victorian setting, but that could be explained by the fact that they (the builders) and their teachings are quite different than, say, catholicism. They promote industry and stuff, so it's understandable that they are still going strong.
Pagans are another issue - but one could explain their presence by making TDM world different from ours in a sense that there's more of a gap between "civilized" and "uncivilized" world - massive cities, surrounded by smaller towns and detached farms (or something), but further away from such habitats there's the untamed wilderness where pagans still prosper.
Then you could also make some guards carry musketes instead of crossbows and they would be more powerful - more dangerous and another incentive for sneaking. Most guards would still carry swords though, because they're better for close combat. Medieval type of armor would make sense I guess, because firearms would be rare (unlike real 19th century) and most people and especially thieves and such would still be using daggers and bows (and bow is silent, too).
uh.... that was just a quick brainstorm. A couple of undeveloped ideas, feel free to rebuke...
EDIT: now that I took another look, I think this post would make more sense in "The Thief/dark Mod Universe" thread, so do move it, if you feel it should be moved.
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I must say I'm impressed by the U3 engine.... these screens don't really do it justice...
Once the hardware has become advanced enough to run games with this engine as well as current systems run D3, I think someone ought to make a Thief-like mod on it... damn, from what I've seen, this engine is entirely capable of rendering huge, detailed cities and I distinctly remember someone at Epic saying it will support streaming (huge, seamless worlds) and a very advanced occlusion system for visibility calculations. I think THAT is a crucial advantage to U3, and not insanely high res textures and displacement mapping... The screens (and videos) that impress me the most are those which show those unbelievably HUGE and realistic looking vistas. Now that's something to whet my appetite... I'm not too big on sci-fi sounding specifications about pixel-this and vertex-that.
Not even mentioning their visual scripting system. I hear modding for U3 will be extremely simplified, while at the same time allowing for more complexity. Some screens on the unreal technology site do seem to show AI programming with minimal code. And the same goes for shaders. I once read an article in which some Epic guy bragged that with U3 engine, one is able to implement drastically different playing mechanics within a single level in a matter of hours.
Now, whether all this cool stuff will actually make it into the final build, remains to be seen, but looks like they're pulling it off well...
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Think we'd squeeze through wth a 'teen' rating?
Bahh... Once you show the game to the folks at MPAA (or whatever it is) they'll be so hooked they won't even bother anymore
I mean, who hasn't ever fantasized about going on a spree of ultra-violence and the good ole forced "in-out"? I know I have... 
(yeah i'm a fan of both monty python and kubrick)
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It's funny you shoul dmention that kwc, after the Dark Mod, we plan to use the toolset to make a rape simulator mod. You basically play a Jack the Ripper type character called Dr. Faustus in a steampunk Victorian setting, who prowls the steets at night raping prositutes and then cutting them up.
Faustus is mad - he thinks that regularly eating the bolied clitoris' of his victims will endow him with everlasting life.
It'll be called Dr. Faustus Comes to London, or Crimson Death.
Hey, that's actually pretty neat
I mean, I don't think there has ever been a game like that. You'd top the charts, people :lol: -
Hmm, I like the idea of 18./19. century feel.
I actually always thought it would be cool if some company made a game like Thief, only set in 19. century england... With Jack The Ripper and all
I always thought victorian era was actually quite gritty, perhaps not as much as medieval times, but still.... Perhaps someone will make a mod for TDM haha. Hey, that would be cool, a mod for a mod... -
I kinda like it when I can hear some subtle buzz here and there or maybe a scratch on the string while changing chords. I feel it adds a bit of "organic feel" to the music. Music for me is one thing where perfection in performance isn't always welcome, much less necessary. But that's just my opinion... MIDIs are like that, perfect but DULL DULL DULL.
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Well, it's my firm belief that you can play music (or, afterall, compose your own) well even on a low budget guitar. I wouldn't hesitate to record something with my yamaha - it's got a good enough tone, and it plays rather well. A guitar with intonation problems, heavily bent neck, (...) is a different matter altogether. But as long as a guitar is well in tune up to 12th fret and reasonably so above - with action low enough to be able to play without having your fingers slip under the strings, I find it good enough to play around with.
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Ahhh, Recuerdos...
A nice little song, that...Well, Fingernail, congrats on your new guitar, it really looks beautiful... And the clips are awesome as well - may I ask what microphone exactly did you use? It sounds quite good for a dynamic...
I've got one classical at home, it's just a cheap 200 dollar yamaha, but I quite like it. It has a nice tone (not fantastic, but very good) and intonation is decent - I've played much pricier guitars with much worse intonation, actually. I wonder how is it to play on a 2500 dollar guitar though
Like I said, those clips sound really good. Don't think I'd even try to learn those songs as of now. I'm a self taught guitarist, but I mostly play electric guitar (for 2 and a half years) and only occasionally pick up the classical, and even then I prefer to just make something up on my own. I also played piano in the music school for 4-5 years, but forgot most of it. It's been only recently that I began playing it again (only have a synthesizer, though). Currently I'm attending viol classes in the music school and DAMN, I used to think guitar was hard to play O_o
Cool to see -and hear- fellow musicians on this board. Really great, TDM is in good hands
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No, really. Those are friggin awesome. AMAZING specular (?) on the armor.
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Oh SHIT... Don't tell me they look like that IN-GAME... Because if they do... shit...
Edit: Just noticed the light gem -so it's in-game... How the hell do you do it? I mean, they really DO look much better than average D3 models...
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well, i don't know what kind of sound issues i might be getting in thief, but i haven't yet encountered any obvious sound glitches ever since i've got the audiophile. not a stutter, not a crackle.
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^^^funny stuff, he he.
i'm slovenian, and in our language, "kurva" changes to "kurba", but hey, close enough i guess
perhaps you could use some of those "obscure" words in dark mod somehow, you know, a bit like in clockwork orange, with that nadsat speech (or whatever it was called).... but then again, that might be a stupid idea.
Edit: and, oh, Monty Python's the best thing to have come out of the 20th century... okay, almost
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well, you all seem to be pretty optimistic and seeing that i'm obviously not the only one to prefer a no-frills hi fidelity soundcard makes me much less worried
though i wasn't really fearing not being able to hear something in the game, but rather hearing something i was not supposed to... if you get my point...
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well, that's exactly what worries me... like i said, from what i gather, you're hoping that the EAX system will handle how sounds are being heard by the player, and i'd like to know if that means that on a non-EAX enabled card the player won't hear sounds properly (this has nothing to do with how the sounds are being processed internally for the AI and such)... it would really detract from the experience, not being able to enjoy the new sound propagation system, occlusion and all... i hope i'm just panicking though
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hmm, i'd like to know what exactly you mean with that eax hd extension... does it mean that if you decide to take advantage of it, the sound engine of darkmod will be unseparable from eax? meaning that if your sound card doesn't support eax, you won't be able to play the game properly?
sorry for those -silly perhaps- questions, i'm not a coder or anything and perhaps i'm way off with my reasoning, but i'm a bit worried, because i've got an m-audio audiophile sound card, which is awesome and all, but doesn't support eax, being a professional sound card made for recording and all... i'm not a big fan of eax, and so far i haven't missed it, but i'd hate not to be able to play that mod just because of that...
anyway, thanks in advance for any answers...
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Well I'll be damned... Never figured D3 is such an acrobat of an engine, especially judging from the game itself.
This is not as nice as a menu item, but I think you people that dealt with DromEd can handle itEh, I should have cleared it up in the beginning... I've no worthy experience in level editing in any reknown environment like Unreal or Quake, much less DromEd...
Better spare the praise for those numerous heroes who actually got that abomination to work properly -
Hello there, people.
First off... This project of yours looks absolutely fantastic. I'm a thief fan, but when I played TDS I felt something lacking - not that it was a bad game, quite the contrary, but still, I never got the same feeling I get everytime I fire up good ol' Thief 1/2. Now, with your mod, I've got another thiefy thing to look forward to in hope it's going be a return to the form. So, uhm, yeah, I've seen the T3Ed has been released (that being another awesome gesture from the awesome and friendly IS devs), but to tell you the truth, if, IF I'm ever going to design anything thief related, I think I'll choose TDM.
So much for praise
. Now onward to the questions...1) I kinda wonder how you're going to customize the editor built into D3. I mean, you're bound to use some specific functions, scripts and whatnot in this mod, and I fail to see how such stuff could be implemented into the editor without access to the source code.
2) Conversations. Can they be done in D3 engine merely by modding scripts? I don't think I've ever seen them in-game in D3, at least not the way they are done in Thief...?
3) Have you found any feature of the good old dark engine yet, that absolutely could NOT be ported into D3 engine without source code access? I'm asking this to get an idea just how flexible D3 engine is, modding-wise.
I know my questions are a bit on the sceptic side, and hell, I'd really like for you to succeed, but sometimes you've got to question... So if it ain't too much to answer now...
Dark Mod Pre-Beta Download links and discussion.
in The Dark Mod
Posted
I honestly didn't even notice that about the AI animations. I guess I didn't pay much attention to them because I know they're far from being complete. Now that you mentioned it, I opened it again and I see what you mean, but it could be worse I think. Thievery has this same problem with AI.