161803398874989
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Posts posted by 161803398874989
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You are not hearing what I'm saying. I'm saying give the player a free-form challenge room after learning things. I am not talking about forcing the player into anything, or repetition, and quite frankly that is the stupidest idea I have ever heard, and it's insulting that you would think that was what I was suggesting. Ungoliant, please stop twisting my words. I'm sick of your strawman arguments.
I said I never use flashbombs. Of course I know how to use them. I just never use them because I never did other than once in the tutorial section.
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Yeah, once.
I never use moss arrows, flashbombs, throwing objects, the dedicated mantle button (though you could argue that is not necessary), and I'm sure a couple more things. I never really learnt to use them, so now I just don't even when I have access. Sure, I could learn, but I don't think about that when playing a mission.
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I'm not going to bother to link studies, but according to the pubby-style writing in my New Scientist sub, quite a few recent studies have shown that modern educational systems are failing people to grasp concepts and skills by trying to make everything into a linear progression of lessons/tutorials, and that throwing people into the deep end (with a limited depth, and some sort of vague goal), is one of the fastest ways to teach basic practical competencies and understanding.
Without having seen said studies, I have the following remarks:
1. Group size matters, especially at earlier ages where the kids aren't really inclined to want to study.
2. Location matters. The way kids are taught in my country is probably different from, say, America. This has an effect on effectiveness.
3. Platform matters. In the game feedback is rather immediate, as it is with individual teaching, whereas modern education has delayed feedback usually.
So I think it's a bit too drastic to draw conclusions based upon the studies.
Also, what I referred to in my post is closer to what you're reffering to "throw people in the deep end with some sort of vague goal" than babying them all the way through. You show the concept, then give them a challenge. You have to use the stuff if you're going to remember it, and that's where I think the training mission is lacking (it could do with a little clearer ordering as well, which is the linearity aspect of the discussion).
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Freeform exploration is the name of this game. Even if the changes you suggest are not radical, they conform to a trend towards linearity and "handholding" to a degree. If your ideas are implemented sooner or later other people straight up say "just put them all in the 'right' order and eliminate the guesswork so I don't need to 'waste my time' ".
The training mission is fundamentally different from regular FMs because we're trying to teach the player rather than to just provide him a challenge. It has a higher tolerance for linearity than some other FM. Your slippery slope argument is not applicable here.
If you take the time to explore all of the training mission, all issues like "whats that spyglass thing" are answered. We should be so thankful that we are given the opportunity to go do something else instead of having the FM say to us: "it is now time to learn about the spyglass".
This is a false dichotomy. You can simply number the doors, mention in the book that that's the recommended order, but that you can go anywhere you like. Or if you do choose a linear path, you can always add little area skips and secrets to make a linear training mission more like a FM. Or connect the areas together with the hub being central so you can go everywhere at any time, or just follow the path. There is a wealth of options between "absolutely, totally free form" and "absolutely, totally linear".
A line in the sand needs to be drawn somewhere, and the training mission is practically the holy embodiment of all that is good about TDM in its root foundational form.
Ehh, no. The Builder Warehouse is super linear. It's good to teach people, but I wouldn't like it in an FM because I want options.
You are TEACHING PEOPLE STUFF. First you need to SHOW/EXPLAIN them how you do it, then you let them PLAY with it and give them relevant FEEDBACK until they INTERNALIZE it. Throwing them in the deep may work to teach them a couple things, but it's way less effective.
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You should very explicitly say you want hints. People here will understand that.
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Take Assassin's Creed. Shitty game , great soundtrack
Fuck that noise. AC is the best game ever made.
If only it didn't have the minimap on by default.
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"Hand holding" is a bit provocative around here, because TDM was designed to break free from the modern hand-holding in gaming, which is culminated by "Press X to win!" -type of design. Of course you will never learn everything in a tutorial. Go play, experiment and learn. If you wonder what button does what, open the options and examine the key bindings.
I mean, what has happened to good old curiosity? You test stuff to find stuff out. That's what children do when they play, and they know it out-of-the-box. Can't people generate new knowledge by themselves, by experimenting, or can you only do the stuff you have been instructed to do? When you look at the modern game hand holding, the latter seems to be the main thing nowadays.
This is not my point. Besides, each of the sections in the training mission already pretty much holds your hand (especially the stealth section: "shoot this arrow over there, then sheathe your weapons and quickly make your way over to the door"). What I'm trying to say is that the bolus of information isn't very conducive to learning stuff. I think people learn better if you teach them a couple things, then allow them to play with those skills and internalize them before moving on to teaching them new skills. That is my gripe with the training mission.
The aggressive linearity comment was a response to the violent response the word "hand-holding" seemed to invoke. The rest of the comment is just about what I think could be better about the training mission, which is precisely some non-hand-holdy sections where you get to play around with your new skills and internalize them. Basically, you do 3-4 handholdy bits where you quickly teach them a new skill, then set up a room with some AI as a puzzle to solve.
For instance, you could introduce lighting mechanics and hiding behind cover (the beginning of the builder warehouse), and then make a larger room with more AI in it. Then you introduce arrows and flashbombs, and you give them another larger room with some lighting that can be turned off or shot out with a water arrow. I know there are some really cool bonus areas in the training mission that do this, but I think they should be more or less mandatory.
I'm not sure how a training mission with a story (as in TDS) would be any more effective.
I never said it needs a story, and I don't think it does. I think it needs to put you in real mission situations after learning new skills.
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Since when did this topic stop being about Thief 4 and start begin about feminism?
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"Hand holding" in this context does not refer to using aggressive linearity to prevent the player from experimenting. It refers to actually telling and teaching the player things in an easy to understand manner. Right now, the training mission is just a gigantic information drop, which is not very conducive to memorizing stuff.
Not that I don't like the current training mission, but you can't expect players to remember everything they saw in there, and they're going to need a little more teaching.
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Isn't the reasoning behind it that the bow is a kind of large object, maybe oiled in well so it's somewhat shiny? Rather than the blackjack which is a small, black object with no reflective properties whatsoever.
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Reading is hard.
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Just finished this. Absolutely amazing storytelling, runs very smoothly (there was only one area where I would drop frames like mad, and only if I was looking the wrong way). However, I can't say I enjoyed it as much as the first bit, simply because there were so many undead and I hate the undead. I do not think they make for a fun gameplay mechanic.
But since I was playing already anyway, I decided to finish the mission. Only at one point I got kinda stuck (very close to the end because I hadn't seen the trapdoor) and decided to look it up in the thread rather than getting mad at the mission.
Some really cool gameplay mechanics, like
The lighting dudes, though I think they were a little too hard. I liked the crown mechanic as well, though it was used only once and that was it. Also on getting the third seal, spawning enemies. Cool tricks and stuff, though I saw that last one coming from miles away and even shot a water arrow at the torch right near the upper door before going down, which saved my ass later on.
The way you introduced things was very good as well, very smoothly.
All in all I'd very highly recommend it if you don't mind the undead being a major part of your mission, but it's not really a mission for me. Still, I really (really really) liked the outer areas a lot.
Also, I have so many questions:
What happened to the Greengrocer? (didn't do the optional quest)
What happens to Brother Markus?
Did Hakar set you up? What will happen to him?
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How about multiplying all the data with a matrix? Rotation is a linear operator and matrix multiplication is decently fast. It'd also allow for non vertical walls.
The problem would be climbing over stuff.
Sorry, being stupid. What does it mean when you say it only works for planar walls? If you can get it working for non-planar floors, all you need to do is use matrix multiplication to turn everything all the data. Could be a bit memory intensive though.
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Pathfinding being height aware is a major feature of pathfinding libraries and very hard indeed to do genererically (without location triggers and with animations that don't look fake with different situations).
Another which no library i know of handles is walking on walls seemlessly (spiders etc). All the algorithims simplify to a cylinder with z-up collision so this idea is something all of them hate (not to mention gravity). So it gets 'handled' with scripts for cheap gotchas.
It's easy to rotate models, right? Why not put some type of monsterclip (I believe it's called that, places where the AI can walk) on the walls and rotate the model should it encounter a corner?
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As for the definition of "ghosting", it depends on the community. For instance, I believe the TDM community (as well as the Dishonored community) allows for guards to be moderately suspicious. However, in the Assassin's Creed community, this is not counted as ghosting, which is when no guards are even moderately suspicious.
Same thing with disturbing the area.
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Am I the only one that thinks certain 'review' threads like this are just a provocative method that some new players use to get special handholding privileges most of us would ignore otherwise?
I can't answer that because I don't know what the others think about it.
However, I think this is not the right way to think about it. You want new players, you're going to have to help them out if they have problems. Not everybody is teh h4rdc0r3.
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At some point I just walked away from the whole sword fighting thing.
Heh, me too. I never bother to fight anyways. It's either just quickload or bailamanjaro.
- I started playing The Tears of St. Lucia and got stuck pretty quickly. I think what would be good is if the game had an actual training mission that would constantly tell the player what to do. Shoot an arrow there, club the man there, move into the shadow here, duck there, climb up to that window here, pick up that there. Basically, when to do what in actual missions. I had to watch YouTube videos to figure out how to play missions.I figured this out myself, but that's probably because I like to make things hard. You get used to it really quickly though.
Should I ever get a computer that can run DarkRadiant, I'll probably give mapping a shot and this would be on the list.
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11 and 14 on your listed are behaving as intended. Blackjacking is supposed to be kinda hard, just like finding loot. You'll learn what is loot and what isn't soon enough, don't worry!
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Is there a donation thing set up somewhere? Like a "pay for it what you will"-kind of thing?
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I know exactly what I'm talkinng about. All the double checks the system uses is a form of DRM. It's just not commonly called so. It serves the same purpose as DRM. DRM is itself a system of checks to ensure you can legally play the game.
And why exactly is the existence of DRM a problem?
To make Black Mesa work, I had to create a new email account then use that to create my login info. This gets Steam working but I still cannot use this same info to log on to the forum, and I'm supposed to. When logging on if your info don't work they ask you to verify via a Captcha whitch Never works for me or many other folks. It's a big issue many folks have even though others seem to never have these problems. I had to create this new account in the first place because I do have another steam account that I can use to log into the forum BUT, this same info would not work with the steam client. After I fought with the Steam system for a couple of days I then decided to make the new account which like I say is still buggy.These are things you should contact Steam Support about.
Captcha upon failed login attempts is a very good measure to prevent brute-force password attacks, which is a pretty major security concern because many people use shitty passwords.
The cause for your bad experience is probably simply Steam trying to protect your sensitive information.
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This sounds like something a mapper could just do in a script.
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That quite a spacious room for a poor man!
Very atmospheric though.
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The last bit is more hardstyle-ish.
Overall, I like your style; you have a decent ear and make decent sounds. However, the music is a bit all over the place in terms of style.
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nerds
You're a team member of TDM. I think that makes you a nerd, too. A stealth game development nerd.
Which Missions Should I Start With?
in The Dark Mod
Posted
In addition to what the others said, Requiem is fun if you don't mind the undead.
I highly recommend Lords and Legacy, Not an Ordinary Guest and A Score to Settle.