Subjective Effect

Agreed. Realism is key. The thing with realism is that often there will be multiple ways to do certain things (just look at any building - there are loads of ways in), but sometimes there is only one way.

Output from Debug 9. Double checked. pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/game02.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/game01.pk4 GameManager: Map path set to C:/games/doom3/darkmod/maps/ GameManager: Prefab path set to C:/games/doom3/darkmod/prefabs/ => Module GameManager initialised. Initialising module: SceneGraph => Module SceneGraph entering intialisation. SceneGraph::initialiseModule called => Module SceneGraph initialised. => Module FilterSystem entering intialisation. [filters] Loaded 15 filters from registry. => Module FilterSystem initialised. Initialising module: OpenGL => Module OpenGL entering intialisation. OpenGL::initialiseModule called. => Module OpenGL initialised. Initialising module: SelectionSystem Initialising module: Grid => Module Grid entering intialisation. GridManager::initialiseModule called. => Module Grid initialised. Initialising module: ShaderCache Initialising module: OpenGLStateLibrary => Module OpenGLStateLibrary entering intialisation. OpenGLStateLibrary::initialiseModule called. => Module OpenGLStateLibrary initialised. Initialising module: ShaderSystem => Module ShaderSystem entering intialisation. Doom3ShaderSystem::initialiseModule called => Module ShaderSystem initialised. => Module ShaderCache entering intialisation. ShaderCache::initialiseModule called. => Module ShaderCache initialised. => Module SelectionSystem entering intialisation. RadiantSelectionSystem::initialiseModule called. => Module SelectionSystem initialised. Initialising module: UndoSystem => Module UndoSystem entering intialisation. UndoSystem::initialiseModule called => Module UndoSystem initialised. => Module Doom3BrushCreator entering intialisation. BrushModuleClass::initialiseModule called. EventManager: addRegistryToggle called with TogTexLock (user/ui/brush/textureLoc k) this = 0x1ee8450 Instantiating RegistryToggle object... RegistryToggle constructor entered. Acquiring registry, calling registry...comparing adding Keyobserver. done. creating shared_ptr inserting in map... returning => Module Doom3BrushCreator initialised. Initialising module: Doom3EntityCreator => Module Doom3EntityCreator entering intialisation. Doom3EntityCreator::initialiseModule called. => Module Doom3EntityCreator initialised. Initialising module: Doom3MapLoader Initialising module: EntityClassManager => Module EntityClassManager entering intialisation. EntityClassDoom3::initialiseModule called. => Module EntityClassManager initialised. Initialising module: FileTypes => Module FileTypes entering intialisation. FileTypeRegistry::initialiseModule called. => Module FileTypes initialised. Initialising module: PatchModuleDef2 => Module PatchModuleDef2 entering intialisation. Doom3PatchDef2Creator::initialiseModule called. => Module PatchModuleDef2 initialised. Initialising module: PatchModuleDef3 => Module PatchModuleDef3 entering intialisation. Doom3PatchDef3Creator::initialiseModule called. => Module PatchModuleDef3 initialised. => Module Doom3MapLoader entering intialisation. MapDoom3API::initialiseModule called. => Module Doom3MapLoader initialised. Initialising module: ImageLoaderDDS => Module ImageLoaderDDS entering intialisation. ImageLoaderDDS::initialiseModule called. => Module ImageLoaderDDS initialised. Initialising module: ImageLoaderJPG => Module ImageLoaderJPG entering intialisation. ImageLoaderJPG::initialiseModule called. => Module ImageLoaderJPG initialised. Initialising module: ImageLoaderTGA => Module ImageLoaderTGA entering intialisation. ImageLoaderTGA::initialiseModule called. => Module ImageLoaderTGA initialised. Initialising module: Namespace => Module Namespace entering intialisation. Namespace::initialiseModule called. => Module Namespace initialised. Initialising module: ParticlesManager => Module ParticlesManager entering intialisation. ParticlesManager::initialiseModule called => Module ParticlesManager initialised. Initialising module: ReferenceCache => Module ReferenceCache entering intialisation. ReferenceCache::initialiseModule called. => Module ReferenceCache initialised. Initialising module: SoundManager => Module SoundManager entering intialisation. SoundManager::initialiseModule called => Module SoundManager initialised. Initialising module: UIManager => Module UIManager entering intialisation. UIManager::initialiseModule called Found toolbar: view Found toolbar: edit Found toolbar: texture Found toolbar: textool MenuManager: Finished loading default menu from registry. => Module UIManager initialised. => Module Radiant entering intialisation. RadiantAPI::initialiseModule called. RadiantCoreAPI: Selection_construct() RadiantCoreAPI: MultiMon_Construct() default screen has 1 monitors monitor 0 geometry: 0, 0, 1680, 1050 RadiantCoreAPI: map::PointFile::Instance().registerComma nds() RadiantCoreAPI: Map_Construct() RadiantCoreAPI: MainFrame_Construct() Registering commands...1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 (adding RegistryToggle) EventManager: addRegistryToggle called with ToggleShowSizeInfo (user/ui/xyview/s howSizeInfo) this = 0x1ee8450 Instantiating RegistryToggle object... RegistryToggle constructor entered. Acquiring registry, calling registry...comparing adding Keyobserver. done. creating shared_ptr inserting in map... returning d e f g h i j k l m n o 11 12 EventManager: addRegistryToggle called with ToggleRotationPivot (user/ui/rotatio nPivotIsOrigin) this = 0x1ee8450 Instantiating RegistryToggle object... RegistryToggle constructor entered. Acquiring registry, calling registry...comparing adding Keyobserver. done. creating shared_ptr inserting in map... returning 13 ui::TexTool::registerCommands() EventManager: addRegistryToggle called with TexToolToggleGrid (user/ui/textures/ texTool/gridActive) this = 0x1ee8450 Instantiating RegistryToggle object... RegistryToggle constructor entered. Acquiring registry, calling registry...comparing adding Keyobserver. done. creating shared_ptr inserting in map... returning Patch_registerCommands() GlobalSelectionSystem().addSelectionChan geCallback() Layout_registerPreferencesPage() GlobalEntityClassManager().attach() done RadiantCoreAPI: GlobalCamera().construct() RadiantCoreAPI: GlobalXYWnd().construct() EventManager: addRegistryToggle called with ToggleCrosshairs (user/ui/xyview/sho wCrossHairs) this = 0x1ee8450 Instantiating RegistryToggle object... RegistryToggle constructor entered. Acquiring registry, calling registry...comparing adding Keyobserver. done. creating shared_ptr inserting in map... returning EventManager: addRegistryToggle called with ToggleGrid (user/ui/xyview/showGrid) this = 0x1ee8450 Instantiating RegistryToggle object... RegistryToggle constructor entered. Acquiring registry, calling registry...comparing adding Keyobserver. done. creating shared_ptr inserting in map... returning EventManager: addRegistryToggle called with ShowAngles (user/ui/xyview/showEntit yAngles) this = 0x1ee8450 Instantiating RegistryToggle object... RegistryToggle constructor entered. Acquiring registry, calling registry...comparing adding Keyobserver. done. creating shared_ptr inserting in map... returning EventManager: addRegistryToggle called with ShowNames (user/ui/xyview/showEntity Names) this = 0x1ee8450 Instantiating RegistryToggle object... RegistryToggle constructor entered. Acquiring registry, calling registry...comparing adding Keyobserver. done. creating shared_ptr inserting in map... returning EventManager: addRegistryToggle called with ShowBlocks (user/ui/xyview/showBlock s) this = 0x1ee8450 Instantiating RegistryToggle object... RegistryToggle constructor entered. Acquiring registry, calling registry...comparing adding Keyobserver. done. creating shared_ptr inserting in map... returning EventManager: addRegistryToggle called with ShowCoordinates (user/ui/xyview/show Coordinates) this = 0x1ee8450 Instantiating RegistryToggle object... RegistryToggle constructor entered. Acquiring registry, calling registry...comparing adding Keyobserver. done. creating shared_ptr inserting in map... returning EventManager: addRegistryToggle called with ShowWindowOutline (user/ui/xyview/sh owOutline) this = 0x1ee8450 Instantiating RegistryToggle object... RegistryToggle constructor entered. Acquiring registry, calling registry...comparing adding Keyobserver. done. creating shared_ptr inserting in map... returning EventManager: addRegistryToggle called with ShowAxes (user/ui/xyview/showAxes) t his = 0x1ee8450 Instantiating RegistryToggle object... RegistryToggle constructor entered. Acquiring registry, calling registry...comparing adding Keyobserver. done. creating shared_ptr inserting in map... returning EventManager: addRegistryToggle called with ShowWorkzone (user/ui/xyview/showWor kzone) this = 0x1ee8450 Instantiating RegistryToggle object... RegistryToggle constructor entered. Acquiring registry, calling registry...comparing adding Keyobserver. done. creating shared_ptr inserting in map... returning RadiantCoreAPI: GlobalTextureBrowser().construct() EventManager: addRegistryToggle called with ShowInUse (user/ui/textures/browser/ hideUnused) this = 0x1ee8450 Instantiating RegistryToggle object... RegistryToggle constructor entered. Acquiring registry, calling registry...comparing adding Keyobserver. done. creating shared_ptr inserting in map... returning RadiantCoreAPI: Entity_Construct() EventManager: addRegistryToggle called with ToggleFreeModelRotation (user/ui/fre eModelRotation) this = 0x1ee8450 Instantiating RegistryToggle object... RegistryToggle constructor entered. Acquiring registry, calling registry...comparing adding Keyobserver. done. creating shared_ptr inserting in map... returning RadiantCoreAPI: map::AutoSaver().init() RadiantCoreAPI: done() => Module Radiant initialised. => Module EventManager entering intialisation. EventManager::initialiseModule called. EventManager: Modifiers found: 3 MouseEventManager: Buttons found: 5 MouseEventManager: XYView Definitions found: 6 MouseEventManager: Observer Definitions found: 11 MouseEventManager: Camera Definitions found: 2

As I've explained - if you were less prescriptive I wouldn't mind.

No external HD to install it on?

What an immature response. I expected better. Onwards: I think your arrows and tools point is important and correct, as is the ghostable one.

I'm not attacking you. I think your opinions show both prejudice and narrow-mindedness. I've explained why. I wouldn't mind at all if you weren't so prescriptive. And I don't think including that it's your opinion is in any way a buy out for being both incongruous and prescriptive. I never tried to tell you what missions to like or not - but the prescriptive nature of your suggestions does the opposite. In effect you are being a hypocrite here. The thread will never get back on track because I think that what you have posted is harmful to the cause and until you see that how can I just ignore it?

I would have left out the bits where you say missions "should" have X, and should "always" have Y. It's very directive and this is the issue I've had with it all along. I would have just laid down a neutral list of things that can possibly be included in a mission, without the suggestive/directive language, Also your dislike of non-human missions is clear - you say people should see TDP for how NOT to do it. Au contriare, I think you should see TDP for how to do good non-human missions and you should never let your prejudices guide you like this. I don't like the robots in TMA - but I'd never suggest that TMA did it the wrong way just because I prefer pagan and undead missions. I disagree with you - you said I was free to. What's the problem? I disagree with your ideas because the way you have presented them is as if these are essential elements to missions and I believe that having them that way will be bad for the overall mission scene. In certain missions your rules would fit fine, but that would be the outcome of the mission fitting the rules, not the mission being designed according to them. Would you rather I sat back and let something that I think is not only fundamentally flawed but also potential harmful to what we are trying to do here just pass without comment?

Output from Debug 8 - double checked. crt_init() streams_init() module::ModuleRegistry::Instance().initi aliseContext(argc, argv) gtk_disable_setlocale() gtk_init() GlobalDebugMessageHandler::instance().se tHandler() ui::Splash::Instance().show() module::RegistryReference::Instance().se tRegistry() ui::Splash::Instance().setProgressAndTex t() module::getRegistry().getApplicationCont ext() ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/archivezip.dll' Module registered: ArchivePK4 ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/eclassmgr.dll' Module registered: EntityClassManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/entity.dll' Module registered: Doom3EntityCreator ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/entitylist.dll' Module registered: EntityList ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/eventmanager.dll' Module registered: EventManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/filetypes.dll' Module registered: FileTypes ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/filters.dll' Module registered: FilterSystem ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/grid.dll' Module registered: Grid ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/image.dll' Module registered: ImageLoaderTGA Module registered: ImageLoaderJPG Module registered: ImageLoaderPCX Module registered: ImageLoaderBMP Module registered: ImageLoaderDDS Module registered: ImageLoaderGDK ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/mapdoom3.dll' Module registered: Doom3MapLoader ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/md5model.dll' Module registered: ModelLoaderMD5MESH ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/model.dll' Module registered: ModelLoaderMD3 Module registered: ModelLoader3DS Module registered: ModelLoaderASE Module registered: ModelLoaderMS3D Module registered: ModelLoaderMDC Module registered: ModelLoaderMD2 Module registered: ModelLoaderFM Module registered: ModelLoaderLWO Module registered: ModelLoaderPICOTERRAIN Module registered: ModelLoaderOBJ ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/particles.dll' Module registered: ParticlesManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/scenegraph.dll' Module registered: SceneGraph ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/shaders.dll' Module registered: ShaderSystem ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/skins.dll' Module registered: ModelSkinCache ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/sound.dll' Module registered: SoundManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/uimanager.dll' Module registered: UIManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/undo.dll' Module registered: UndoSystem ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/vfspk3.dll' Module registered: VirtualFileSystem ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/xmlregistry.dll' Module registered: XMLRegistry ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/plugins/dm_d3hook.dll' Module registered: Doom3Hook ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/plugins/dm_objectives.dll' Module registered: ObjectivesEditor ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/plugins/dm_stimresponse.dll' Module registered: StimResponseEditor ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/plugins/eclasstree.dll' Module registered: EClassTree module::getRegistry().initialiseModules( ) Initialising module: ArchivePK4 => Module ArchivePK4 entering intialisation. ArchivePK4::initialiseModule called => Module ArchivePK4 initialised. Initialising module: Camera Initialising module: EventManager Initialising module: Radiant Initialising module: Clipper Initialising module: PreferenceSystem => Module PreferenceSystem entering intialisation. PreferenceSystem::initialiseModule called => Module PreferenceSystem initialised. Initialising module: XMLRegistry => Module XMLRegistry entering intialisation. XMLRegistry::initialiseModule called XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/user.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/colours.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/input.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/menu.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:\Users\Master\AppData\Roaming\DarkRadiant\/us er.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:\Users\Master\AppData\Roaming\DarkRadiant\/in put.xml => Module XMLRegistry initialised. => Module Clipper entering intialisation. Clipper::initialiseModule called => Module Clipper initialised. Initialising module: Doom3BrushCreator Initialising module: FilterSystem Initialising module: GameManager Initialising module: VirtualFileSystem => Module VirtualFileSystem entering intialisation. VFS::initialiseModule called => Module VirtualFileSystem initialised. => Module GameManager entering intialisation. GameManager::initialiseModule called. GameManager: Scanning for game description files: C:/games/DarkRadiant/games/ XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/games/doom3.game GameManager: Found game definitions: doom3 GameManager: Selected game type: doom3 vfs directory: C:/games/doom3/darkmod/ pak file: C:/games/doom3/darkmod/thiefs_den.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/darkmod/darkmod.pk4 vfs directory: C:/games/doom3/base/ pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/pak008.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/pak007.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/pak006.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/game03.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/game02.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/game01.pk4 GameManager: Map path set to C:/games/doom3/darkmod/maps/ GameManager: Prefab path set to C:/games/doom3/darkmod/prefabs/ => Module GameManager initialised. Initialising module: SceneGraph => Module SceneGraph entering intialisation. SceneGraph::initialiseModule called => Module SceneGraph initialised. => Module FilterSystem entering intialisation. [filters] Loaded 15 filters from registry. => Module FilterSystem initialised. Initialising module: OpenGL => Module OpenGL entering intialisation. OpenGL::initialiseModule called. => Module OpenGL initialised. Initialising module: SelectionSystem Initialising module: Grid => Module Grid entering intialisation. GridManager::initialiseModule called. => Module Grid initialised. Initialising module: ShaderCache Initialising module: OpenGLStateLibrary => Module OpenGLStateLibrary entering intialisation. OpenGLStateLibrary::initialiseModule called. => Module OpenGLStateLibrary initialised. Initialising module: ShaderSystem => Module ShaderSystem entering intialisation. Doom3ShaderSystem::initialiseModule called => Module ShaderSystem initialised. => Module ShaderCache entering intialisation. ShaderCache::initialiseModule called. => Module ShaderCache initialised. => Module SelectionSystem entering intialisation. RadiantSelectionSystem::initialiseModule called. => Module SelectionSystem initialised. Initialising module: UndoSystem => Module UndoSystem entering intialisation. UndoSystem::initialiseModule called => Module UndoSystem initialised. => Module Doom3BrushCreator entering intialisation. BrushModuleClass::initialiseModule called. EventManager: addRegistryToggle called with TogTexLock (user/ui/brush/textureLoc k) this = 0x1e18450 Instantiating RegistryToggle object... RegistryToggle constructor entered. Acquiring registry, calling registry...comparing adding Keyobserver. done. creating shared_ptr inserting in map... returning => Module Doom3BrushCreator initialised. Initialising module: Doom3EntityCreator => Module Doom3EntityCreator entering intialisation. Doom3EntityCreator::initialiseModule called. => Module Doom3EntityCreator initialised. Initialising module: Doom3MapLoader Initialising module: EntityClassManager => Module EntityClassManager entering intialisation. EntityClassDoom3::initialiseModule called. => Module EntityClassManager initialised. Initialising module: FileTypes => Module FileTypes entering intialisation. FileTypeRegistry::initialiseModule called. => Module FileTypes initialised. Initialising module: PatchModuleDef2 => Module PatchModuleDef2 entering intialisation. Doom3PatchDef2Creator::initialiseModule called. => Module PatchModuleDef2 initialised. Initialising module: PatchModuleDef3 => Module PatchModuleDef3 entering intialisation. Doom3PatchDef3Creator::initialiseModule called. => Module PatchModuleDef3 initialised. => Module Doom3MapLoader entering intialisation. MapDoom3API::initialiseModule called. => Module Doom3MapLoader initialised. Initialising module: ImageLoaderDDS => Module ImageLoaderDDS entering intialisation. ImageLoaderDDS::initialiseModule called. => Module ImageLoaderDDS initialised. Initialising module: ImageLoaderJPG => Module ImageLoaderJPG entering intialisation. ImageLoaderJPG::initialiseModule called. => Module ImageLoaderJPG initialised. Initialising module: ImageLoaderTGA => Module ImageLoaderTGA entering intialisation. ImageLoaderTGA::initialiseModule called. => Module ImageLoaderTGA initialised. Initialising module: Namespace => Module Namespace entering intialisation. Namespace::initialiseModule called. => Module Namespace initialised. Initialising module: ParticlesManager => Module ParticlesManager entering intialisation. ParticlesManager::initialiseModule called => Module ParticlesManager initialised. Initialising module: ReferenceCache => Module ReferenceCache entering intialisation. ReferenceCache::initialiseModule called. => Module ReferenceCache initialised. Initialising module: SoundManager => Module SoundManager entering intialisation. SoundManager::initialiseModule called => Module SoundManager initialised. Initialising module: UIManager => Module UIManager entering intialisation. UIManager::initialiseModule called Found toolbar: view Found toolbar: edit Found toolbar: texture Found toolbar: textool MenuManager: Finished loading default menu from registry. => Module UIManager initialised. => Module Radiant entering intialisation. RadiantAPI::initialiseModule called. RadiantCoreAPI: Selection_construct() RadiantCoreAPI: MultiMon_Construct() default screen has 1 monitors monitor 0 geometry: 0, 0, 1680, 1050 RadiantCoreAPI: map::PointFile::Instance().registerComma nds() RadiantCoreAPI: Map_Construct() RadiantCoreAPI: MainFrame_Construct() Registering commands...1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 (adding RegistryToggle) EventManager: addRegistryToggle called with ToggleShowSizeInfo (user/ui/xyview/s howSizeInfo) this = 0x1e18450 Instantiating RegistryToggle object... RegistryToggle constructor entered. Acquiring registry, calling registry...comparing adding Keyobserver. done. creating shared_ptr inserting in map... returning a (adding RegistryToggle) EventManager: addRegistryToggle called with ToggleShowAllLightRadii (user/ui/sho wAllLightRadii) this = 0x1e18450 Instantiating RegistryToggle object... RegistryToggle constructor entered. Acquiring registry, calling registry...comparing adding Keyobserver. done. creating shared_ptr inserting in map... returning b (adding RegistryToggle) EventManager: addRegistryToggle called with ToggleShowAllSpeakerRadii (user/ui/s howAllSpeakerRadii) this = 0x1e18450 Instantiating RegistryToggle object... RegistryToggle constructor entered. Acquiring registry, calling registry...comparing adding Keyobserver. done.

Is anyone going to bother updating the Mod DB page? Isn't this New Horizon's job? Many mods are updating right now because it gets your mod high in the news list.

Output from debug 7. I checked it twice - the last line was the same both times. crt_init() streams_init() module::ModuleRegistry::Instance().initi aliseContext(argc, argv) gtk_disable_setlocale() gtk_init() GlobalDebugMessageHandler::instance().se tHandler() ui::Splash::Instance().show() module::RegistryReference::Instance().se tRegistry() ui::Splash::Instance().setProgressAndTex t() module::getRegistry().getApplicationCont ext() ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/archivezip.dll' Module registered: ArchivePK4 ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/eclassmgr.dll' Module registered: EntityClassManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/entity.dll' Module registered: Doom3EntityCreator ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/entitylist.dll' Module registered: EntityList ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/eventmanager.dll' Module registered: EventManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/filetypes.dll' Module registered: FileTypes ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/filters.dll' Module registered: FilterSystem ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/grid.dll' Module registered: Grid ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/image.dll' Module registered: ImageLoaderTGA Module registered: ImageLoaderJPG Module registered: ImageLoaderPCX Module registered: ImageLoaderBMP Module registered: ImageLoaderDDS Module registered: ImageLoaderGDK ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/mapdoom3.dll' Module registered: Doom3MapLoader ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/md5model.dll' Module registered: ModelLoaderMD5MESH ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/model.dll' Module registered: ModelLoaderMD3 Module registered: ModelLoader3DS Module registered: ModelLoaderASE Module registered: ModelLoaderMS3D Module registered: ModelLoaderMDC Module registered: ModelLoaderMD2 Module registered: ModelLoaderFM Module registered: ModelLoaderLWO Module registered: ModelLoaderPICOTERRAIN Module registered: ModelLoaderOBJ ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/particles.dll' Module registered: ParticlesManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/scenegraph.dll' Module registered: SceneGraph ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/shaders.dll' Module registered: ShaderSystem ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/skins.dll' Module registered: ModelSkinCache ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/sound.dll' Module registered: SoundManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/uimanager.dll' Module registered: UIManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/undo.dll' Module registered: UndoSystem ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/vfspk3.dll' Module registered: VirtualFileSystem ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/xmlregistry.dll' Module registered: XMLRegistry ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/plugins/dm_d3hook.dll' Module registered: Doom3Hook ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/plugins/dm_objectives.dll' Module registered: ObjectivesEditor ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/plugins/dm_stimresponse.dll' Module registered: StimResponseEditor ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/plugins/eclasstree.dll' Module registered: EClassTree module::getRegistry().initialiseModules( ) Initialising module: ArchivePK4 => Module ArchivePK4 entering intialisation. ArchivePK4::initialiseModule called => Module ArchivePK4 initialised. Initialising module: Camera Initialising module: EventManager Initialising module: Radiant Initialising module: Clipper Initialising module: PreferenceSystem => Module PreferenceSystem entering intialisation. PreferenceSystem::initialiseModule called => Module PreferenceSystem initialised. Initialising module: XMLRegistry => Module XMLRegistry entering intialisation. XMLRegistry::initialiseModule called XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/user.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/colours.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/input.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/menu.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:\Users\Master\AppData\Roaming\DarkRadiant\/us er.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:\Users\Master\AppData\Roaming\DarkRadiant\/in put.xml => Module XMLRegistry initialised. => Module Clipper entering intialisation. Clipper::initialiseModule called => Module Clipper initialised. Initialising module: Doom3BrushCreator Initialising module: FilterSystem Initialising module: GameManager Initialising module: VirtualFileSystem => Module VirtualFileSystem entering intialisation. VFS::initialiseModule called => Module VirtualFileSystem initialised. => Module GameManager entering intialisation. GameManager::initialiseModule called. GameManager: Scanning for game description files: C:/games/DarkRadiant/games/ XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/games/doom3.game GameManager: Found game definitions: doom3 GameManager: Selected game type: doom3 vfs directory: C:/games/doom3/darkmod/ pak file: C:/games/doom3/darkmod/thiefs_den.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/darkmod/darkmod.pk4 vfs directory: C:/games/doom3/base/ pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/pak008.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/pak007.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/pak006.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/game03.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/game02.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/game01.pk4 GameManager: Map path set to C:/games/doom3/darkmod/maps/ GameManager: Prefab path set to C:/games/doom3/darkmod/prefabs/ => Module GameManager initialised. Initialising module: SceneGraph => Module SceneGraph entering intialisation. SceneGraph::initialiseModule called => Module SceneGraph initialised. => Module FilterSystem entering intialisation. [filters] Loaded 15 filters from registry. => Module FilterSystem initialised. Initialising module: OpenGL => Module OpenGL entering intialisation. OpenGL::initialiseModule called. => Module OpenGL initialised. Initialising module: SelectionSystem Initialising module: Grid => Module Grid entering intialisation. GridManager::initialiseModule called. => Module Grid initialised. Initialising module: ShaderCache Initialising module: OpenGLStateLibrary => Module OpenGLStateLibrary entering intialisation. OpenGLStateLibrary::initialiseModule called. => Module OpenGLStateLibrary initialised. Initialising module: ShaderSystem => Module ShaderSystem entering intialisation. Doom3ShaderSystem::initialiseModule called => Module ShaderSystem initialised. => Module ShaderCache entering intialisation. ShaderCache::initialiseModule called. => Module ShaderCache initialised. => Module SelectionSystem entering intialisation. RadiantSelectionSystem::initialiseModule called. => Module SelectionSystem initialised. Initialising module: UndoSystem => Module UndoSystem entering intialisation. UndoSystem::initialiseModule called => Module UndoSystem initialised. => Module Doom3BrushCreator entering intialisation. BrushModuleClass::initialiseModule called. EventManager: addRegistryToggle called with TogTexLock (user/ui/brush/textureLoc k) Instantiating RegistryToggle RegistryToggle constructor entered. Acquiring registry, calling registry...comparing adding Keyobserver. done. inserting in map...returning => Module Doom3BrushCreator initialised. Initialising module: Doom3EntityCreator => Module Doom3EntityCreator entering intialisation. Doom3EntityCreator::initialiseModule called. => Module Doom3EntityCreator initialised. Initialising module: Doom3MapLoader Initialising module: EntityClassManager => Module EntityClassManager entering intialisation. EntityClassDoom3::initialiseModule called. => Module EntityClassManager initialised. Initialising module: FileTypes => Module FileTypes entering intialisation. FileTypeRegistry::initialiseModule called. => Module FileTypes initialised. Initialising module: PatchModuleDef2 => Module PatchModuleDef2 entering intialisation. Doom3PatchDef2Creator::initialiseModule called. => Module PatchModuleDef2 initialised. Initialising module: PatchModuleDef3 => Module PatchModuleDef3 entering intialisation. Doom3PatchDef3Creator::initialiseModule called. => Module PatchModuleDef3 initialised. => Module Doom3MapLoader entering intialisation. MapDoom3API::initialiseModule called. => Module Doom3MapLoader initialised. Initialising module: ImageLoaderDDS => Module ImageLoaderDDS entering intialisation. ImageLoaderDDS::initialiseModule called. => Module ImageLoaderDDS initialised. Initialising module: ImageLoaderJPG => Module ImageLoaderJPG entering intialisation. ImageLoaderJPG::initialiseModule called. => Module ImageLoaderJPG initialised. Initialising module: ImageLoaderTGA => Module ImageLoaderTGA entering intialisation. ImageLoaderTGA::initialiseModule called. => Module ImageLoaderTGA initialised. Initialising module: Namespace => Module Namespace entering intialisation. Namespace::initialiseModule called. => Module Namespace initialised. Initialising module: ParticlesManager => Module ParticlesManager entering intialisation. ParticlesManager::initialiseModule called => Module ParticlesManager initialised. Initialising module: ReferenceCache => Module ReferenceCache entering intialisation. ReferenceCache::initialiseModule called. => Module ReferenceCache initialised. Initialising module: SoundManager => Module SoundManager entering intialisation. SoundManager::initialiseModule called => Module SoundManager initialised. Initialising module: UIManager => Module UIManager entering intialisation. UIManager::initialiseModule called Found toolbar: view Found toolbar: edit Found toolbar: texture Found toolbar: textool MenuManager: Finished loading default menu from registry. => Module UIManager initialised. => Module Radiant entering intialisation. RadiantAPI::initialiseModule called. RadiantCoreAPI: Selection_construct() RadiantCoreAPI: MultiMon_Construct() default screen has 1 monitors monitor 0 geometry: 0, 0, 1680, 1050 RadiantCoreAPI: map::PointFile::Instance().registerComma nds() RadiantCoreAPI: Map_Construct() RadiantCoreAPI: MainFrame_Construct() Registering commands...1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 (adding RegistryToggle) EventManager: addRegistryToggle called with ToggleShowSizeInfo (user/ui/xyview/s howSizeInfo) Instantiating RegistryToggle RegistryToggle constructor entered. Acquiring registry, calling registry...comparing adding Keyobserver. done. inserting in map...returning a (adding RegistryToggle) EventManager: addRegistryToggle called with ToggleShowAllLightRadii (user/ui/sho wAllLightRadii) Instantiating RegistryToggle RegistryToggle constructor entered. Acquiring registry, calling registry...comparing adding Keyobserver. done. inserting in map...returning b (adding RegistryToggle) EventManager: addRegistryToggle called with ToggleShowAllSpeakerRadii (user/ui/s howAllSpeakerRadii) Instantiating RegistryToggle RegistryToggle constructor entered. Acquiring registry, calling registry...comparing adding Keyobserver. done.

I think the answer to that is to allow for multiple approaches - something I think is essential in any map - so that lack of a tool that would allow you to use your preferred route doesn't stop you dead. There will always be cases where you have to do something a certain way though.

I thought I was helping. Here is the output for Debug 6. crt_init() streams_init() module::ModuleRegistry::Instance().initi aliseContext(argc, argv) gtk_disable_setlocale() gtk_init() GlobalDebugMessageHandler::instance().se tHandler() ui::Splash::Instance().show() module::RegistryReference::Instance().se tRegistry() ui::Splash::Instance().setProgressAndTex t() module::getRegistry().getApplicationCont ext() ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/archivezip.dll' Module registered: ArchivePK4 ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/eclassmgr.dll' Module registered: EntityClassManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/entity.dll' Module registered: Doom3EntityCreator ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/entitylist.dll' Module registered: EntityList ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/eventmanager.dll' Module registered: EventManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/filetypes.dll' Module registered: FileTypes ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/filters.dll' Module registered: FilterSystem ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/grid.dll' Module registered: Grid ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/image.dll' Module registered: ImageLoaderTGA Module registered: ImageLoaderJPG Module registered: ImageLoaderPCX Module registered: ImageLoaderBMP Module registered: ImageLoaderDDS Module registered: ImageLoaderGDK ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/mapdoom3.dll' Module registered: Doom3MapLoader ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/md5model.dll' Module registered: ModelLoaderMD5MESH ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/model.dll' Module registered: ModelLoaderMD3 Module registered: ModelLoader3DS Module registered: ModelLoaderASE Module registered: ModelLoaderMS3D Module registered: ModelLoaderMDC Module registered: ModelLoaderMD2 Module registered: ModelLoaderFM Module registered: ModelLoaderLWO Module registered: ModelLoaderPICOTERRAIN Module registered: ModelLoaderOBJ ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/particles.dll' Module registered: ParticlesManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/scenegraph.dll' Module registered: SceneGraph ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/shaders.dll' Module registered: ShaderSystem ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/skins.dll' Module registered: ModelSkinCache ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/sound.dll' Module registered: SoundManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/uimanager.dll' Module registered: UIManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/undo.dll' Module registered: UndoSystem ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/vfspk3.dll' Module registered: VirtualFileSystem ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/xmlregistry.dll' Module registered: XMLRegistry ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/plugins/dm_d3hook.dll' Module registered: Doom3Hook ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/plugins/dm_objectives.dll' Module registered: ObjectivesEditor ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/plugins/dm_stimresponse.dll' Module registered: StimResponseEditor ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/plugins/eclasstree.dll' Module registered: EClassTree module::getRegistry().initialiseModules( ) Initialising module: ArchivePK4 => Module ArchivePK4 entering intialisation. ArchivePK4::initialiseModule called => Module ArchivePK4 initialised. Initialising module: Camera Initialising module: EventManager Initialising module: Radiant Initialising module: Clipper Initialising module: PreferenceSystem => Module PreferenceSystem entering intialisation. PreferenceSystem::initialiseModule called => Module PreferenceSystem initialised. Initialising module: XMLRegistry => Module XMLRegistry entering intialisation. XMLRegistry::initialiseModule called XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/user.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/colours.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/input.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/menu.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:\Users\Master\AppData\Roaming\DarkRadiant\/us er.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:\Users\Master\AppData\Roaming\DarkRadiant\/in put.xml => Module XMLRegistry initialised. => Module Clipper entering intialisation. Clipper::initialiseModule called => Module Clipper initialised. Initialising module: Doom3BrushCreator Initialising module: FilterSystem Initialising module: GameManager Initialising module: VirtualFileSystem => Module VirtualFileSystem entering intialisation. VFS::initialiseModule called => Module VirtualFileSystem initialised. => Module GameManager entering intialisation. GameManager::initialiseModule called. GameManager: Scanning for game description files: C:/games/DarkRadiant/games/ XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/games/doom3.game GameManager: Found game definitions: doom3 GameManager: Selected game type: doom3 vfs directory: C:/games/doom3/darkmod/ pak file: C:/games/doom3/darkmod/thiefs_den.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/darkmod/darkmod.pk4 vfs directory: C:/games/doom3/base/ pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/pak008.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/pak007.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/pak006.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/game03.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/game02.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/game01.pk4 GameManager: Map path set to C:/games/doom3/darkmod/maps/ GameManager: Prefab path set to C:/games/doom3/darkmod/prefabs/ => Module GameManager initialised. Initialising module: SceneGraph => Module SceneGraph entering intialisation. SceneGraph::initialiseModule called => Module SceneGraph initialised. => Module FilterSystem entering intialisation. [filters] Loaded 15 filters from registry. => Module FilterSystem initialised. Initialising module: OpenGL => Module OpenGL entering intialisation. OpenGL::initialiseModule called. => Module OpenGL initialised. Initialising module: SelectionSystem Initialising module: Grid => Module Grid entering intialisation. GridManager::initialiseModule called. => Module Grid initialised. Initialising module: ShaderCache Initialising module: OpenGLStateLibrary => Module OpenGLStateLibrary entering intialisation. OpenGLStateLibrary::initialiseModule called. => Module OpenGLStateLibrary initialised. Initialising module: ShaderSystem => Module ShaderSystem entering intialisation. Doom3ShaderSystem::initialiseModule called => Module ShaderSystem initialised. => Module ShaderCache entering intialisation. ShaderCache::initialiseModule called. => Module ShaderCache initialised. => Module SelectionSystem entering intialisation. RadiantSelectionSystem::initialiseModule called. => Module SelectionSystem initialised. Initialising module: UndoSystem => Module UndoSystem entering intialisation. UndoSystem::initialiseModule called => Module UndoSystem initialised. => Module Doom3BrushCreator entering intialisation. BrushModuleClass::initialiseModule called. EventManager: addRegistryToggle called with TogTexLock (user/ui/brush/textureLoc k) Instantiating RegistryToggle RegistryToggle constructor entered. Acquiring registry, calling registry...comparing adding Keyobserver. done. returning => Module Doom3BrushCreator initialised. Initialising module: Doom3EntityCreator => Module Doom3EntityCreator entering intialisation. Doom3EntityCreator::initialiseModule called. => Module Doom3EntityCreator initialised. Initialising module: Doom3MapLoader Initialising module: EntityClassManager => Module EntityClassManager entering intialisation. EntityClassDoom3::initialiseModule called. => Module EntityClassManager initialised. Initialising module: FileTypes => Module FileTypes entering intialisation. FileTypeRegistry::initialiseModule called. => Module FileTypes initialised. Initialising module: PatchModuleDef2 => Module PatchModuleDef2 entering intialisation. Doom3PatchDef2Creator::initialiseModule called. => Module PatchModuleDef2 initialised. Initialising module: PatchModuleDef3 => Module PatchModuleDef3 entering intialisation. Doom3PatchDef3Creator::initialiseModule called. => Module PatchModuleDef3 initialised. => Module Doom3MapLoader entering intialisation. MapDoom3API::initialiseModule called. => Module Doom3MapLoader initialised. Initialising module: ImageLoaderDDS => Module ImageLoaderDDS entering intialisation. ImageLoaderDDS::initialiseModule called. => Module ImageLoaderDDS initialised. Initialising module: ImageLoaderJPG => Module ImageLoaderJPG entering intialisation. ImageLoaderJPG::initialiseModule called. => Module ImageLoaderJPG initialised. Initialising module: ImageLoaderTGA => Module ImageLoaderTGA entering intialisation. ImageLoaderTGA::initialiseModule called. => Module ImageLoaderTGA initialised. Initialising module: Namespace => Module Namespace entering intialisation. Namespace::initialiseModule called. => Module Namespace initialised. Initialising module: ParticlesManager => Module ParticlesManager entering intialisation. ParticlesManager::initialiseModule called => Module ParticlesManager initialised. Initialising module: ReferenceCache => Module ReferenceCache entering intialisation. ReferenceCache::initialiseModule called. => Module ReferenceCache initialised. Initialising module: SoundManager => Module SoundManager entering intialisation. SoundManager::initialiseModule called => Module SoundManager initialised. Initialising module: UIManager => Module UIManager entering intialisation. UIManager::initialiseModule called Found toolbar: view Found toolbar: edit Found toolbar: texture Found toolbar: textool MenuManager: Finished loading default menu from registry. => Module UIManager initialised. => Module Radiant entering intialisation. RadiantAPI::initialiseModule called. RadiantCoreAPI: Selection_construct() RadiantCoreAPI: MultiMon_Construct() default screen has 1 monitors monitor 0 geometry: 0, 0, 1680, 1050 RadiantCoreAPI: map::PointFile::Instance().registerComma nds() RadiantCoreAPI: Map_Construct() RadiantCoreAPI: MainFrame_Construct() Registering commands...1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 (adding RegistryToggle) EventManager: addRegistryToggle called with ToggleShowSizeInfo (user/ui/xyview/s howSizeInfo) Instantiating RegistryToggle RegistryToggle constructor entered. Acquiring registry, calling registry...comparing adding Keyobserver. done. returning a (adding RegistryToggle) EventManager: addRegistryToggle called with ToggleShowAllLightRadii (user/ui/sho wAllLightRadii) Instantiating RegistryToggle RegistryToggle constructor entered. Acquiring registry, calling registry...comparing adding Keyobserver. done. returning b (adding RegistryToggle) EventManager: addRegistryToggle called with ToggleShowAllSpeakerRadii (user/ui/s howAllSpeakerRadii) Instantiating RegistryToggle RegistryToggle constructor entered. Acquiring registry, calling registry...comparing adding Keyobserver. done. I won't be able to do any more til tomorrow now.

Well you started a thread and proceeded to devise a set of "must haves" . This is clear from the way you've written it - if you didn't mean to present it like that then you shouldn't have presented it like that. I just think that if your rules were stuck by we'd end up with a set of cookie cutter missions and that is seriously damaging. As such I think this a serious issue and it's important to let you know. I was hoping you'd realise how narrow-minded you're being. But your new set of "criteria" show that you're not, you're suggesting ideas for FMs that are to your taste AS IF THEY ARE MANDATORY. As such it's not a case of "agree to disagree". You're suggesting something that I think is fundamentally wrong.

Output from Debug 5. I hope this is getting to the bottom of things. crt_init() streams_init() module::ModuleRegistry::Instance().initi aliseContext(argc, argv) gtk_disable_setlocale() gtk_init() GlobalDebugMessageHandler::instance().se tHandler() ui::Splash::Instance().show() module::RegistryReference::Instance().se tRegistry() ui::Splash::Instance().setProgressAndTex t() module::getRegistry().getApplicationCont ext() ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/archivezip.dll' Module registered: ArchivePK4 ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/eclassmgr.dll' Module registered: EntityClassManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/entity.dll' Module registered: Doom3EntityCreator ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/entitylist.dll' Module registered: EntityList ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/eventmanager.dll' Module registered: EventManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/filetypes.dll' Module registered: FileTypes ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/filters.dll' Module registered: FilterSystem ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/grid.dll' Module registered: Grid ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/image.dll' Module registered: ImageLoaderTGA Module registered: ImageLoaderJPG Module registered: ImageLoaderPCX Module registered: ImageLoaderBMP Module registered: ImageLoaderDDS Module registered: ImageLoaderGDK ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/mapdoom3.dll' Module registered: Doom3MapLoader ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/md5model.dll' Module registered: ModelLoaderMD5MESH ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/model.dll' Module registered: ModelLoaderMD3 Module registered: ModelLoader3DS Module registered: ModelLoaderASE Module registered: ModelLoaderMS3D Module registered: ModelLoaderMDC Module registered: ModelLoaderMD2 Module registered: ModelLoaderFM Module registered: ModelLoaderLWO Module registered: ModelLoaderPICOTERRAIN Module registered: ModelLoaderOBJ ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/particles.dll' Module registered: ParticlesManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/scenegraph.dll' Module registered: SceneGraph ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/shaders.dll' Module registered: ShaderSystem ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/skins.dll' Module registered: ModelSkinCache ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/sound.dll' Module registered: SoundManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/uimanager.dll' Module registered: UIManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/undo.dll' Module registered: UndoSystem ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/vfspk3.dll' Module registered: VirtualFileSystem ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/xmlregistry.dll' Module registered: XMLRegistry ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/plugins/dm_d3hook.dll' Module registered: Doom3Hook ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/plugins/dm_objectives.dll' Module registered: ObjectivesEditor ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/plugins/dm_stimresponse.dll' Module registered: StimResponseEditor ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/plugins/eclasstree.dll' Module registered: EClassTree module::getRegistry().initialiseModules( ) Initialising module: ArchivePK4 => Module ArchivePK4 entering intialisation. ArchivePK4::initialiseModule called => Module ArchivePK4 initialised. Initialising module: Camera Initialising module: EventManager Initialising module: Radiant Initialising module: Clipper Initialising module: PreferenceSystem => Module PreferenceSystem entering intialisation. PreferenceSystem::initialiseModule called => Module PreferenceSystem initialised. Initialising module: XMLRegistry => Module XMLRegistry entering intialisation. XMLRegistry::initialiseModule called XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/user.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/colours.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/input.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/menu.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:\Users\Master\AppData\Roaming\DarkRadiant\/us er.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:\Users\Master\AppData\Roaming\DarkRadiant\/in put.xml => Module XMLRegistry initialised. => Module Clipper entering intialisation. Clipper::initialiseModule called => Module Clipper initialised. Initialising module: Doom3BrushCreator Initialising module: FilterSystem Initialising module: GameManager Initialising module: VirtualFileSystem => Module VirtualFileSystem entering intialisation. VFS::initialiseModule called => Module VirtualFileSystem initialised. => Module GameManager entering intialisation. GameManager::initialiseModule called. GameManager: Scanning for game description files: C:/games/DarkRadiant/games/ XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/games/doom3.game GameManager: Found game definitions: doom3 GameManager: Selected game type: doom3 vfs directory: C:/games/doom3/darkmod/ pak file: C:/games/doom3/darkmod/thiefs_den.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/darkmod/darkmod.pk4 vfs directory: C:/games/doom3/base/ pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/pak008.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/pak007.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/pak006.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/game03.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/game02.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/game01.pk4 GameManager: Map path set to C:/games/doom3/darkmod/maps/ GameManager: Prefab path set to C:/games/doom3/darkmod/prefabs/ => Module GameManager initialised. Initialising module: SceneGraph => Module SceneGraph entering intialisation. SceneGraph::initialiseModule called => Module SceneGraph initialised. => Module FilterSystem entering intialisation. [filters] Loaded 15 filters from registry. => Module FilterSystem initialised. Initialising module: OpenGL => Module OpenGL entering intialisation. OpenGL::initialiseModule called. => Module OpenGL initialised. Initialising module: SelectionSystem Initialising module: Grid => Module Grid entering intialisation. GridManager::initialiseModule called. => Module Grid initialised. Initialising module: ShaderCache Initialising module: OpenGLStateLibrary => Module OpenGLStateLibrary entering intialisation. OpenGLStateLibrary::initialiseModule called. => Module OpenGLStateLibrary initialised. Initialising module: ShaderSystem => Module ShaderSystem entering intialisation. Doom3ShaderSystem::initialiseModule called => Module ShaderSystem initialised. => Module ShaderCache entering intialisation. ShaderCache::initialiseModule called. => Module ShaderCache initialised. => Module SelectionSystem entering intialisation. RadiantSelectionSystem::initialiseModule called. => Module SelectionSystem initialised. Initialising module: UndoSystem => Module UndoSystem entering intialisation. UndoSystem::initialiseModule called => Module UndoSystem initialised. => Module Doom3BrushCreator entering intialisation. BrushModuleClass::initialiseModule called. EventManager: addRegistryToggle called with TogTexLock (user/ui/brush/textureLoc k) Instantiating RegistryToggle RegistryToggle constructor entered. adding Keyobserver. done. returning => Module Doom3BrushCreator initialised. Initialising module: Doom3EntityCreator => Module Doom3EntityCreator entering intialisation. Doom3EntityCreator::initialiseModule called. => Module Doom3EntityCreator initialised. Initialising module: Doom3MapLoader Initialising module: EntityClassManager => Module EntityClassManager entering intialisation. EntityClassDoom3::initialiseModule called. => Module EntityClassManager initialised. Initialising module: FileTypes => Module FileTypes entering intialisation. FileTypeRegistry::initialiseModule called. => Module FileTypes initialised. Initialising module: PatchModuleDef2 => Module PatchModuleDef2 entering intialisation. Doom3PatchDef2Creator::initialiseModule called. => Module PatchModuleDef2 initialised. Initialising module: PatchModuleDef3 => Module PatchModuleDef3 entering intialisation. Doom3PatchDef3Creator::initialiseModule called. => Module PatchModuleDef3 initialised. => Module Doom3MapLoader entering intialisation. MapDoom3API::initialiseModule called. => Module Doom3MapLoader initialised. Initialising module: ImageLoaderDDS => Module ImageLoaderDDS entering intialisation. ImageLoaderDDS::initialiseModule called. => Module ImageLoaderDDS initialised. Initialising module: ImageLoaderJPG => Module ImageLoaderJPG entering intialisation. ImageLoaderJPG::initialiseModule called. => Module ImageLoaderJPG initialised. Initialising module: ImageLoaderTGA => Module ImageLoaderTGA entering intialisation. ImageLoaderTGA::initialiseModule called. => Module ImageLoaderTGA initialised. Initialising module: Namespace => Module Namespace entering intialisation. Namespace::initialiseModule called. => Module Namespace initialised. Initialising module: ParticlesManager => Module ParticlesManager entering intialisation. ParticlesManager::initialiseModule called => Module ParticlesManager initialised. Initialising module: ReferenceCache => Module ReferenceCache entering intialisation. ReferenceCache::initialiseModule called. => Module ReferenceCache initialised. Initialising module: SoundManager => Module SoundManager entering intialisation. SoundManager::initialiseModule called => Module SoundManager initialised. Initialising module: UIManager => Module UIManager entering intialisation. UIManager::initialiseModule called Found toolbar: view Found toolbar: edit Found toolbar: texture Found toolbar: textool MenuManager: Finished loading default menu from registry. => Module UIManager initialised. => Module Radiant entering intialisation. RadiantAPI::initialiseModule called. RadiantCoreAPI: Selection_construct() RadiantCoreAPI: MultiMon_Construct() default screen has 1 monitors monitor 0 geometry: 0, 0, 1680, 1050 RadiantCoreAPI: map::PointFile::Instance().registerComma nds() RadiantCoreAPI: Map_Construct() RadiantCoreAPI: MainFrame_Construct() Registering commands...1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 (adding RegistryToggle) EventManager: addRegistryToggle called with ToggleShowSizeInfo (user/ui/xyview/s howSizeInfo) Instantiating RegistryToggle RegistryToggle constructor entered. adding Keyobserver. done. returning a (adding RegistryToggle) EventManager: addRegistryToggle called with ToggleShowAllLightRadii (user/ui/sho wAllLightRadii) Instantiating RegistryToggle RegistryToggle constructor entered. adding Keyobserver. done. returning b (adding RegistryToggle) EventManager: addRegistryToggle called with ToggleShowAllSpeakerRadii (user/ui/s howAllSpeakerRadii) Instantiating RegistryToggle RegistryToggle constructor entered. I see you reading this topic greebo - I'm hanging on with excitement here. Is this helping?

My beef is that I if you try to include elements x,y and z in every mission you lose originality. To have a twist in every mission would be the epitome of mission repetition. Twists have their place. And YOU don't like zombies and bugbeasts. You aren't everyone. I really like undead missions with a mix of zombies and haunts. Remember that zombies being aware of you can alert faster more dangerous undead. I'd actually like to see, as I've said before on this forum, an undead hierarchy where being seen by a zombie alerts the higher undead to your presence. And don't sob story us with "Team members don't want me to discuss this". You were talking about using new factions and the whole point of making models, animations and fiction for the current factions is so people don't have to do this. It's a waste of time and it would get old soon. Oh look religious faction 235! How original! Not.

Even so - there might be differences in the output due to other confounding factors and we should know what differences/similarities there are, no? Output from Debug 4, crt_init() streams_init() module::ModuleRegistry::Instance().initi aliseContext(argc, argv) gtk_disable_setlocale() gtk_init() GlobalDebugMessageHandler::instance().se tHandler() ui::Splash::Instance().show() module::RegistryReference::Instance().se tRegistry() ui::Splash::Instance().setProgressAndTex t() module::getRegistry().getApplicationCont ext() ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/archivezip.dll' Module registered: ArchivePK4 ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/eclassmgr.dll' Module registered: EntityClassManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/entity.dll' Module registered: Doom3EntityCreator ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/entitylist.dll' Module registered: EntityList ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/eventmanager.dll' Module registered: EventManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/filetypes.dll' Module registered: FileTypes ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/filters.dll' Module registered: FilterSystem ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/grid.dll' Module registered: Grid ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/image.dll' Module registered: ImageLoaderTGA Module registered: ImageLoaderJPG Module registered: ImageLoaderPCX Module registered: ImageLoaderBMP Module registered: ImageLoaderDDS Module registered: ImageLoaderGDK ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/mapdoom3.dll' Module registered: Doom3MapLoader ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/md5model.dll' Module registered: ModelLoaderMD5MESH ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/model.dll' Module registered: ModelLoaderMD3 Module registered: ModelLoader3DS Module registered: ModelLoaderASE Module registered: ModelLoaderMS3D Module registered: ModelLoaderMDC Module registered: ModelLoaderMD2 Module registered: ModelLoaderFM Module registered: ModelLoaderLWO Module registered: ModelLoaderPICOTERRAIN Module registered: ModelLoaderOBJ ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/particles.dll' Module registered: ParticlesManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/scenegraph.dll' Module registered: SceneGraph ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/shaders.dll' Module registered: ShaderSystem ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/skins.dll' Module registered: ModelSkinCache ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/sound.dll' Module registered: SoundManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/uimanager.dll' Module registered: UIManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/undo.dll' Module registered: UndoSystem ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/vfspk3.dll' Module registered: VirtualFileSystem ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/xmlregistry.dll' Module registered: XMLRegistry ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/plugins/dm_d3hook.dll' Module registered: Doom3Hook ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/plugins/dm_objectives.dll' Module registered: ObjectivesEditor ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/plugins/dm_stimresponse.dll' Module registered: StimResponseEditor ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/plugins/eclasstree.dll' Module registered: EClassTree module::getRegistry().initialiseModules( ) Initialising module: ArchivePK4 => Module ArchivePK4 entering intialisation. ArchivePK4::initialiseModule called => Module ArchivePK4 initialised. Initialising module: Camera Initialising module: EventManager Initialising module: Radiant Initialising module: Clipper Initialising module: PreferenceSystem => Module PreferenceSystem entering intialisation. PreferenceSystem::initialiseModule called => Module PreferenceSystem initialised. Initialising module: XMLRegistry => Module XMLRegistry entering intialisation. XMLRegistry::initialiseModule called XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/user.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/colours.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/input.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/menu.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:\Users\Master\AppData\Roaming\DarkRadiant\/us er.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:\Users\Master\AppData\Roaming\DarkRadiant\/in put.xml => Module XMLRegistry initialised. => Module Clipper entering intialisation. Clipper::initialiseModule called => Module Clipper initialised. Initialising module: Doom3BrushCreator Initialising module: FilterSystem Initialising module: GameManager Initialising module: VirtualFileSystem => Module VirtualFileSystem entering intialisation. VFS::initialiseModule called => Module VirtualFileSystem initialised. => Module GameManager entering intialisation. GameManager::initialiseModule called. GameManager: Scanning for game description files: C:/games/DarkRadiant/games/ XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/games/doom3.game GameManager: Found game definitions: doom3 GameManager: Selected game type: doom3 vfs directory: C:/games/doom3/darkmod/ pak file: C:/games/doom3/darkmod/thiefs_den.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/darkmod/darkmod.pk4 vfs directory: C:/games/doom3/base/ pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/pak008.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/pak007.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/pak006.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/game03.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/game02.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/game01.pk4 GameManager: Map path set to C:/games/doom3/darkmod/maps/ GameManager: Prefab path set to C:/games/doom3/darkmod/prefabs/ => Module GameManager initialised. Initialising module: SceneGraph => Module SceneGraph entering intialisation. SceneGraph::initialiseModule called => Module SceneGraph initialised. => Module FilterSystem entering intialisation. [filters] Loaded 15 filters from registry. => Module FilterSystem initialised. Initialising module: OpenGL => Module OpenGL entering intialisation. OpenGL::initialiseModule called. => Module OpenGL initialised. Initialising module: SelectionSystem Initialising module: Grid => Module Grid entering intialisation. GridManager::initialiseModule called. => Module Grid initialised. Initialising module: ShaderCache Initialising module: OpenGLStateLibrary => Module OpenGLStateLibrary entering intialisation. OpenGLStateLibrary::initialiseModule called. => Module OpenGLStateLibrary initialised. Initialising module: ShaderSystem => Module ShaderSystem entering intialisation. Doom3ShaderSystem::initialiseModule called => Module ShaderSystem initialised. => Module ShaderCache entering intialisation. ShaderCache::initialiseModule called. => Module ShaderCache initialised. => Module SelectionSystem entering intialisation. RadiantSelectionSystem::initialiseModule called. => Module SelectionSystem initialised. Initialising module: UndoSystem => Module UndoSystem entering intialisation. UndoSystem::initialiseModule called => Module UndoSystem initialised. => Module Doom3BrushCreator entering intialisation. BrushModuleClass::initialiseModule called. => Module Doom3BrushCreator initialised. Initialising module: Doom3EntityCreator => Module Doom3EntityCreator entering intialisation. Doom3EntityCreator::initialiseModule called. => Module Doom3EntityCreator initialised. Initialising module: Doom3MapLoader Initialising module: EntityClassManager => Module EntityClassManager entering intialisation. EntityClassDoom3::initialiseModule called. => Module EntityClassManager initialised. Initialising module: FileTypes => Module FileTypes entering intialisation. FileTypeRegistry::initialiseModule called. => Module FileTypes initialised. Initialising module: PatchModuleDef2 => Module PatchModuleDef2 entering intialisation. Doom3PatchDef2Creator::initialiseModule called. => Module PatchModuleDef2 initialised. Initialising module: PatchModuleDef3 => Module PatchModuleDef3 entering intialisation. Doom3PatchDef3Creator::initialiseModule called. => Module PatchModuleDef3 initialised. => Module Doom3MapLoader entering intialisation. MapDoom3API::initialiseModule called. => Module Doom3MapLoader initialised. Initialising module: ImageLoaderDDS => Module ImageLoaderDDS entering intialisation. ImageLoaderDDS::initialiseModule called. => Module ImageLoaderDDS initialised. Initialising module: ImageLoaderJPG => Module ImageLoaderJPG entering intialisation. ImageLoaderJPG::initialiseModule called. => Module ImageLoaderJPG initialised. Initialising module: ImageLoaderTGA => Module ImageLoaderTGA entering intialisation. ImageLoaderTGA::initialiseModule called. => Module ImageLoaderTGA initialised. Initialising module: Namespace => Module Namespace entering intialisation. Namespace::initialiseModule called. => Module Namespace initialised. Initialising module: ParticlesManager => Module ParticlesManager entering intialisation. ParticlesManager::initialiseModule called => Module ParticlesManager initialised. Initialising module: ReferenceCache => Module ReferenceCache entering intialisation. ReferenceCache::initialiseModule called. => Module ReferenceCache initialised. Initialising module: SoundManager => Module SoundManager entering intialisation. SoundManager::initialiseModule called => Module SoundManager initialised. Initialising module: UIManager => Module UIManager entering intialisation. UIManager::initialiseModule called Found toolbar: view Found toolbar: edit Found toolbar: texture Found toolbar: textool MenuManager: Finished loading default menu from registry. => Module UIManager initialised. => Module Radiant entering intialisation. RadiantAPI::initialiseModule called. RadiantCoreAPI: Selection_construct() RadiantCoreAPI: MultiMon_Construct() default screen has 1 monitors monitor 0 geometry: 0, 0, 1680, 1050 RadiantCoreAPI: map::PointFile::Instance().registerComma nds() RadiantCoreAPI: Map_Construct() RadiantCoreAPI: MainFrame_Construct() Registering commands...1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Got to go now. I'll be back in a few hours.

Output from Debug 3. Even bigger! crt_init() streams_init() module::ModuleRegistry::Instance().initi aliseContext(argc, argv) gtk_disable_setlocale() gtk_init() GlobalDebugMessageHandler::instance().se tHandler() ui::Splash::Instance().show() module::RegistryReference::Instance().se tRegistry() ui::Splash::Instance().setProgressAndTex t() module::getRegistry().getApplicationCont ext() ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/archivezip.dll' Module registered: ArchivePK4 ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/eclassmgr.dll' Module registered: EntityClassManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/entity.dll' Module registered: Doom3EntityCreator ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/entitylist.dll' Module registered: EntityList ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/eventmanager.dll' Module registered: EventManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/filetypes.dll' Module registered: FileTypes ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/filters.dll' Module registered: FilterSystem ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/grid.dll' Module registered: Grid ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/image.dll' Module registered: ImageLoaderTGA Module registered: ImageLoaderJPG Module registered: ImageLoaderPCX Module registered: ImageLoaderBMP Module registered: ImageLoaderDDS Module registered: ImageLoaderGDK ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/mapdoom3.dll' Module registered: Doom3MapLoader ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/md5model.dll' Module registered: ModelLoaderMD5MESH ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/model.dll' Module registered: ModelLoaderMD3 Module registered: ModelLoader3DS Module registered: ModelLoaderASE Module registered: ModelLoaderMS3D Module registered: ModelLoaderMDC Module registered: ModelLoaderMD2 Module registered: ModelLoaderFM Module registered: ModelLoaderLWO Module registered: ModelLoaderPICOTERRAIN Module registered: ModelLoaderOBJ ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/particles.dll' Module registered: ParticlesManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/scenegraph.dll' Module registered: SceneGraph ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/shaders.dll' Module registered: ShaderSystem ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/skins.dll' Module registered: ModelSkinCache ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/sound.dll' Module registered: SoundManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/uimanager.dll' Module registered: UIManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/undo.dll' Module registered: UndoSystem ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/vfspk3.dll' Module registered: VirtualFileSystem ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/xmlregistry.dll' Module registered: XMLRegistry ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/plugins/dm_d3hook.dll' Module registered: Doom3Hook ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/plugins/dm_objectives.dll' Module registered: ObjectivesEditor ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/plugins/dm_stimresponse.dll' Module registered: StimResponseEditor ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/plugins/eclasstree.dll' Module registered: EClassTree module::getRegistry().initialiseModules( ) Initialising module: ArchivePK4 => Module ArchivePK4 entering intialisation. ArchivePK4::initialiseModule called => Module ArchivePK4 initialised. Initialising module: Camera Initialising module: EventManager Initialising module: Radiant Initialising module: Clipper Initialising module: PreferenceSystem => Module PreferenceSystem entering intialisation. PreferenceSystem::initialiseModule called => Module PreferenceSystem initialised. Initialising module: XMLRegistry => Module XMLRegistry entering intialisation. XMLRegistry::initialiseModule called XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/user.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/colours.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/input.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/menu.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:\Users\Master\AppData\Roaming\DarkRadiant\/us er.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:\Users\Master\AppData\Roaming\DarkRadiant\/in put.xml => Module XMLRegistry initialised. => Module Clipper entering intialisation. Clipper::initialiseModule called => Module Clipper initialised. Initialising module: Doom3BrushCreator Initialising module: FilterSystem Initialising module: GameManager Initialising module: VirtualFileSystem => Module VirtualFileSystem entering intialisation. VFS::initialiseModule called => Module VirtualFileSystem initialised. => Module GameManager entering intialisation. GameManager::initialiseModule called. GameManager: Scanning for game description files: C:/games/DarkRadiant/games/ XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/games/doom3.game GameManager: Found game definitions: doom3 GameManager: Selected game type: doom3 vfs directory: C:/games/doom3/darkmod/ pak file: C:/games/doom3/darkmod/thiefs_den.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/darkmod/darkmod.pk4 vfs directory: C:/games/doom3/base/ pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/pak008.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/pak007.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/pak006.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/game03.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/game02.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/game01.pk4 GameManager: Map path set to C:/games/doom3/darkmod/maps/ GameManager: Prefab path set to C:/games/doom3/darkmod/prefabs/ => Module GameManager initialised. Initialising module: SceneGraph => Module SceneGraph entering intialisation. SceneGraph::initialiseModule called => Module SceneGraph initialised. => Module FilterSystem entering intialisation. [filters] Loaded 15 filters from registry. => Module FilterSystem initialised. Initialising module: OpenGL => Module OpenGL entering intialisation. OpenGL::initialiseModule called. => Module OpenGL initialised. Initialising module: SelectionSystem Initialising module: Grid => Module Grid entering intialisation. GridManager::initialiseModule called. => Module Grid initialised. Initialising module: ShaderCache Initialising module: OpenGLStateLibrary => Module OpenGLStateLibrary entering intialisation. OpenGLStateLibrary::initialiseModule called. => Module OpenGLStateLibrary initialised. Initialising module: ShaderSystem => Module ShaderSystem entering intialisation. Doom3ShaderSystem::initialiseModule called => Module ShaderSystem initialised. => Module ShaderCache entering intialisation. ShaderCache::initialiseModule called. => Module ShaderCache initialised. => Module SelectionSystem entering intialisation. RadiantSelectionSystem::initialiseModule called. => Module SelectionSystem initialised. Initialising module: UndoSystem => Module UndoSystem entering intialisation. UndoSystem::initialiseModule called => Module UndoSystem initialised. => Module Doom3BrushCreator entering intialisation. BrushModuleClass::initialiseModule called. => Module Doom3BrushCreator initialised. Initialising module: Doom3EntityCreator => Module Doom3EntityCreator entering intialisation. Doom3EntityCreator::initialiseModule called. => Module Doom3EntityCreator initialised. Initialising module: Doom3MapLoader Initialising module: EntityClassManager => Module EntityClassManager entering intialisation. EntityClassDoom3::initialiseModule called. => Module EntityClassManager initialised. Initialising module: FileTypes => Module FileTypes entering intialisation. FileTypeRegistry::initialiseModule called. => Module FileTypes initialised. Initialising module: PatchModuleDef2 => Module PatchModuleDef2 entering intialisation. Doom3PatchDef2Creator::initialiseModule called. => Module PatchModuleDef2 initialised. Initialising module: PatchModuleDef3 => Module PatchModuleDef3 entering intialisation. Doom3PatchDef3Creator::initialiseModule called. => Module PatchModuleDef3 initialised. => Module Doom3MapLoader entering intialisation. MapDoom3API::initialiseModule called. => Module Doom3MapLoader initialised. Initialising module: ImageLoaderDDS => Module ImageLoaderDDS entering intialisation. ImageLoaderDDS::initialiseModule called. => Module ImageLoaderDDS initialised. Initialising module: ImageLoaderJPG => Module ImageLoaderJPG entering intialisation. ImageLoaderJPG::initialiseModule called. => Module ImageLoaderJPG initialised. Initialising module: ImageLoaderTGA => Module ImageLoaderTGA entering intialisation. ImageLoaderTGA::initialiseModule called. => Module ImageLoaderTGA initialised. Initialising module: Namespace => Module Namespace entering intialisation. Namespace::initialiseModule called. => Module Namespace initialised. Initialising module: ParticlesManager => Module ParticlesManager entering intialisation. ParticlesManager::initialiseModule called => Module ParticlesManager initialised. Initialising module: ReferenceCache => Module ReferenceCache entering intialisation. ReferenceCache::initialiseModule called. => Module ReferenceCache initialised. Initialising module: SoundManager => Module SoundManager entering intialisation. SoundManager::initialiseModule called => Module SoundManager initialised. Initialising module: UIManager => Module UIManager entering intialisation. UIManager::initialiseModule called Found toolbar: view Found toolbar: edit Found toolbar: texture Found toolbar: textool MenuManager: Finished loading default menu from registry. => Module UIManager initialised. => Module Radiant entering intialisation. RadiantAPI::initialiseModule called. RadiantCoreAPI: Selection_construct() RadiantCoreAPI: MultiMon_Construct() default screen has 1 monitors monitor 0 geometry: 0, 0, 1680, 1050 RadiantCoreAPI: map::PointFile::Instance().registerComma nds() RadiantCoreAPI: Map_Construct() RadiantCoreAPI: MainFrame_Construct() Shouldn't oDDity also test this to see if we get the same thing? He's running a 64bit version of Vista, whilst I'm running it at 32bit.

Output from Debug 2. It's much bigger! crt_init() streams_init() module::ModuleRegistry::Instance().initi aliseContext(argc, argv) gtk_disable_setlocale() gtk_init() GlobalDebugMessageHandler::instance().se tHandler() ui::Splash::Instance().show() module::RegistryReference::Instance().se tRegistry() ui::Splash::Instance().setProgressAndTex t() module::getRegistry().getApplicationCont ext() ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/archivezip.dll' Module registered: ArchivePK4 ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/eclassmgr.dll' Module registered: EntityClassManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/entity.dll' Module registered: Doom3EntityCreator ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/entitylist.dll' Module registered: EntityList ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/eventmanager.dll' Module registered: EventManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/filetypes.dll' Module registered: FileTypes ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/filters.dll' Module registered: FilterSystem ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/grid.dll' Module registered: Grid ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/image.dll' Module registered: ImageLoaderTGA Module registered: ImageLoaderJPG Module registered: ImageLoaderPCX Module registered: ImageLoaderBMP Module registered: ImageLoaderDDS Module registered: ImageLoaderGDK ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/mapdoom3.dll' Module registered: Doom3MapLoader ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/md5model.dll' Module registered: ModelLoaderMD5MESH ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/model.dll' Module registered: ModelLoaderMD3 Module registered: ModelLoader3DS Module registered: ModelLoaderASE Module registered: ModelLoaderMS3D Module registered: ModelLoaderMDC Module registered: ModelLoaderMD2 Module registered: ModelLoaderFM Module registered: ModelLoaderLWO Module registered: ModelLoaderPICOTERRAIN Module registered: ModelLoaderOBJ ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/particles.dll' Module registered: ParticlesManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/scenegraph.dll' Module registered: SceneGraph ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/shaders.dll' Module registered: ShaderSystem ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/skins.dll' Module registered: ModelSkinCache ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/sound.dll' Module registered: SoundManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/uimanager.dll' Module registered: UIManager ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/undo.dll' Module registered: UndoSystem ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/vfspk3.dll' Module registered: VirtualFileSystem ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/modules/xmlregistry.dll' Module registered: XMLRegistry ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/plugins/dm_d3hook.dll' Module registered: Doom3Hook ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/plugins/dm_objectives.dll' Module registered: ObjectivesEditor ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/plugins/dm_stimresponse.dll' Module registered: StimResponseEditor ModuleLoader: Loading module 'C:/games/DarkRadiant/plugins/eclasstree.dll' Module registered: EClassTree module::getRegistry().initialiseModules( ) Initialising module: ArchivePK4 => Module ArchivePK4 entering intialisation. ArchivePK4::initialiseModule called => Module ArchivePK4 initialised. Initialising module: Camera Initialising module: EventManager Initialising module: Radiant Initialising module: Clipper Initialising module: PreferenceSystem => Module PreferenceSystem entering intialisation. PreferenceSystem::initialiseModule called => Module PreferenceSystem initialised. Initialising module: XMLRegistry => Module XMLRegistry entering intialisation. XMLRegistry::initialiseModule called XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/user.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/colours.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/input.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/menu.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:\Users\Master\AppData\Roaming\DarkRadiant\/us er.xml XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:\Users\Master\AppData\Roaming\DarkRadiant\/in put.xml => Module XMLRegistry initialised. => Module Clipper entering intialisation. Clipper::initialiseModule called => Module Clipper initialised. Initialising module: Doom3BrushCreator Initialising module: FilterSystem Initialising module: GameManager Initialising module: VirtualFileSystem => Module VirtualFileSystem entering intialisation. VFS::initialiseModule called => Module VirtualFileSystem initialised. => Module GameManager entering intialisation. GameManager::initialiseModule called. GameManager: Scanning for game description files: C:/games/DarkRadiant/games/ XMLRegistry: Importing XML file: C:/games/DarkRadiant/games/doom3.game GameManager: Found game definitions: doom3 GameManager: Selected game type: doom3 vfs directory: C:/games/doom3/darkmod/ pak file: C:/games/doom3/darkmod/thiefs_den.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/darkmod/darkmod.pk4 vfs directory: C:/games/doom3/base/ pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/pak008.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/pak007.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/pak006.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/game03.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/game02.pk4 pak file: C:/games/doom3/base/game01.pk4 GameManager: Map path set to C:/games/doom3/darkmod/maps/ GameManager: Prefab path set to C:/games/doom3/darkmod/prefabs/ => Module GameManager initialised. Initialising module: SceneGraph => Module SceneGraph entering intialisation. SceneGraph::initialiseModule called => Module SceneGraph initialised. => Module FilterSystem entering intialisation. [filters] Loaded 15 filters from registry. => Module FilterSystem initialised. Initialising module: OpenGL => Module OpenGL entering intialisation. OpenGL::initialiseModule called. => Module OpenGL initialised. Initialising module: SelectionSystem Initialising module: Grid => Module Grid entering intialisation. GridManager::initialiseModule called. => Module Grid initialised. Initialising module: ShaderCache Initialising module: OpenGLStateLibrary => Module OpenGLStateLibrary entering intialisation. OpenGLStateLibrary::initialiseModule called. => Module OpenGLStateLibrary initialised. Initialising module: ShaderSystem => Module ShaderSystem entering intialisation. Doom3ShaderSystem::initialiseModule called => Module ShaderSystem initialised. => Module ShaderCache entering intialisation. ShaderCache::initialiseModule called. => Module ShaderCache initialised. => Module SelectionSystem entering intialisation. RadiantSelectionSystem::initialiseModule called. => Module SelectionSystem initialised. Initialising module: UndoSystem => Module UndoSystem entering intialisation. UndoSystem::initialiseModule called => Module UndoSystem initialised. => Module Doom3BrushCreator entering intialisation. BrushModuleClass::initialiseModule called. => Module Doom3BrushCreator initialised. Initialising module: Doom3EntityCreator => Module Doom3EntityCreator entering intialisation. Doom3EntityCreator::initialiseModule called. => Module Doom3EntityCreator initialised. Initialising module: Doom3MapLoader Initialising module: EntityClassManager => Module EntityClassManager entering intialisation. EntityClassDoom3::initialiseModule called. => Module EntityClassManager initialised. Initialising module: FileTypes => Module FileTypes entering intialisation. FileTypeRegistry::initialiseModule called. => Module FileTypes initialised. Initialising module: PatchModuleDef2 => Module PatchModuleDef2 entering intialisation. Doom3PatchDef2Creator::initialiseModule called. => Module PatchModuleDef2 initialised. Initialising module: PatchModuleDef3 => Module PatchModuleDef3 entering intialisation. Doom3PatchDef3Creator::initialiseModule called. => Module PatchModuleDef3 initialised. => Module Doom3MapLoader entering intialisation. MapDoom3API::initialiseModule called. => Module Doom3MapLoader initialised. Initialising module: ImageLoaderDDS => Module ImageLoaderDDS entering intialisation. ImageLoaderDDS::initialiseModule called. => Module ImageLoaderDDS initialised. Initialising module: ImageLoaderJPG => Module ImageLoaderJPG entering intialisation. ImageLoaderJPG::initialiseModule called. => Module ImageLoaderJPG initialised. Initialising module: ImageLoaderTGA => Module ImageLoaderTGA entering intialisation. ImageLoaderTGA::initialiseModule called. => Module ImageLoaderTGA initialised. Initialising module: Namespace => Module Namespace entering intialisation. Namespace::initialiseModule called. => Module Namespace initialised. Initialising module: ParticlesManager => Module ParticlesManager entering intialisation. ParticlesManager::initialiseModule called => Module ParticlesManager initialised. Initialising module: ReferenceCache => Module ReferenceCache entering intialisation. ReferenceCache::initialiseModule called. => Module ReferenceCache initialised. Initialising module: SoundManager => Module SoundManager entering intialisation. SoundManager::initialiseModule called => Module SoundManager initialised. Initialising module: UIManager => Module UIManager entering intialisation. UIManager::initialiseModule called Found toolbar: view Found toolbar: edit Found toolbar: texture Found toolbar: textool MenuManager: Finished loading default menu from registry. => Module UIManager initialised. => Module Radiant entering intialisation. RadiantAPI::initialiseModule called. default screen has 1 monitors monitor 0 geometry: 0, 0, 1680, 1050

Ok. Is this what you want? crt_init() streams_init() module::ModuleRegistry::Instance().initi aliseContext(argc, argv) gtk_disable_setlocale() gtk_init() GlobalDebugMessageHandler::instance().se tHandler() ui::Splash::Instance().show() module::RegistryReference::Instance().se tRegistry() ui::Splash::Instance().setProgressAndTex t() module::getRegistry().getApplicationCont ext() module::getRegistry().initialiseModules( ) [filters] Loaded 15 filters from registry. I can get this without running from the a command line btw.

I like the way you've sidestepped my revised criticism of your initial post Macsen.

I wouldn't be willing to compromise my vision to make a simpler mission. Both of my designed missions will not be completable by someone who isn't paying attention.

K. I'll be a while as I've just uninstalled Doom3!

Oh, a lite version would certainly be preferable as the overheads are big big big. But cross OS compatibility of DR and TDM is absolutely essential. PS. I got 2 keys in Thiefs_Den. How do I get out the back door?

What community? Gamers? They'll change eventually. Remember how no-one wanted XP back in the day? Vista is here to stay and from my pov that's a good thing because IIIIIIII like it!

Ok, I'm your Vista man. I'm all for the development of DarkRadiant/TDM on XP but it must also work with Vista. And 0.9.2 crashes pretty quickly Komag. At least it runs. I did mess around with an earlier version that was more stable some time ago though.