Taquito
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Posts
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Posts posted by Taquito
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grayman has a great idea. The training map has the potential to become a great Mission/tutorial combined. And probably could become the best one as well.
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The idea is that you are sprinkling the water arrows with holy water, and the holy water dries up or drips off. The holy water sticks to the water sack longer than it would to an arrowhead. You're not actually opening up the sack of water and dumping it in.
And surprise attacks already do more damage than regular attacks, whether they come from behind or not.
The purpose of making the back of the Guards more vulnerable to a frontal thrust or poke is to make way for the possibility of adding assassination option in The Missions. In case someone would like to make one. The same goes with the Silver arrows just to have the option open in case someone plans to make a vampire mission or add Little Gargoyles coming from top a Cathedral or something of that sort.
To Deadlove. You are right about the oil arrows but at the same time it could be used for exactly what you said. To create a fuss or distraction as it might alert all the guards from the area to that certain point. It could be even be made using the flash bomb reaction animation with the guard screaming and set on fire. The oil arrows could also make the floor slippery.
BTW I've been trying jumping on top of the guards from a high point to render them unconscious but to no avail. both in Back to the City and A Score To Settle. Maybe there's a youtube video or something showing how is done?
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Thanks for the insight Serious Toni. I felt like I was about to be burned alive.
It seems some people want to throw new gamers into the fire right from the start. Both Tears of Saint Lucia and NHAT are too complicated for players who are probably going to be too busy being frustrated with the Blackjack and how to hit guards properly like I was to be bothered with big intricate maps. What's wrong with Knighton Manor? It has a cute little intro, nice music. It all happens in a Manor and the beginning offers several pathways right from the start. It's a great practice for beginners and it's entertaining enough too keep the attention going. If there's gonna be a map that goes along the Game it should be as simple as possible. The others are great if you already know what you're doing. -
You're going off Topic as well AirshipB by scrutinizing System Shock. Every game has negative points but at the end of the day is a matter of who did it best at the end. I could also do the same with Thief and make a list of annoyances but that would be Off Topic. I'm glad that wesp5 agrees with me in something. If I can't sell my loot at least give me a star so I can see my progress in the Missions sheet. That would also solve the already completed mission thing.
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It doesn't force the player...there are many ways to get past that guard. But it does encourage them to go a different route, much like the first guards in Bafford's Manor do.
Yes, It doesn't force the player but as I mentioned before it slightly does. It might not feel this way to you or many in the forum cause you are Thief Players. But to me and probably other players who are not familiar with the Thief Series or Thief Mechanics and played this for the first it could. You guys probably knew there's always another way, cause you know how it works. But for players who doesn't know that it might.
I think others have already pointed out how this wouldn't work when most missions are completely unrelated. Campaigns can already do the part about storing up gold.
Having the _character_ actually get better goes against the design philosophy of TDM (and Thief). In TDM, you are the character, and you get better by actually getting better. You learn the subtleties of blackjacking and become better at it; you learn how AI behave and become better at hiding, etc. The game doesn't hand you your improvements...you have to earn them.
That's understandable. At this point there's not much that can be done about it. The game is non related mission based. But it can make you feel you're starting from zero in every Mission, which is good and bad at the same time.
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The majority take quotes that represents the other's argument without skewing it so that their own post makes sense without having to read back up. It's also done in order to prevent posts being duplicated all over the page and make it way longer and awkward to read than it needs to be. Netiquette is everything, and apparently something you're not familiar with. If you're comparing MGS to HR, you're really not informed enough to be providing insight into the overhaul of somebody else's project.
I know enough Netiquette to know not to cut half of a sentence of a quote made by someone. I rather quote the entire page or simply cut the complete sentence. I would never do something like that. I'm sorry if I write in caps sometimes but I get a bit frustrated if I feel like I'm being placed in a box.
Back again to the topic. I just suggested the Exp points as something just for the sense of progression. Even if those experience points don't mean anything at all. It could also be used with stars in alongside the Mission when completed as I mentioned in another topic. I was just trowing ideas that's all. It was not my intention to be disrespectful.
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Could've sworn the main topic was about EM mods not wanting to acknowledge that TDM is a game, rather than Thiaf's intrinsic qualities. No need to take personal offense, by the way (what's wrong with liking HR? It was a good game). TDM isn't a solid game in terms of rewards because it doesn't have rewards. It's a bunch of missions, largely unrelated in terms of narrative and design. The emphasis is on the gameplay of the moment and what you can take from that, not the long-running distillation of every mission into one big skill pool that you grind so you can level up your walking speed. If you'd like to be rewarded for every head shot and loot pick-up, the game isn't for you. It's from a time where the reward is beating the mission itself, before achievements and flashy point pop-ups were required to make people feel special for just playing the game, and progressively make what they've already accomplished easier. When it comes to that, people don't play to play the game for what it is, they play to have a bigger number before their name than everybody else.
I'd disagree. The skills in Deus Ex are irritating, given that rounds come out of gun barrels sideways until you level up the skill that allows you to shoot straight. The stealth is very wonky and you have almost no indication of how well-hidden you are, to the point it almost feels like RNG. Both that and System Shock have paths you can follow to make the game far too easy, and also--especially for System Shock--let you completely cripple yourself to a point where the game is unplayable because you couldn't see into the future. The skills are my least favorite elements of both of those games, simply because of the dissonance between the adrenaline hit-scan shooter context they were born out of and the restrictive levels dampening your own skill. Bottom line is that skills just detract from the player's ability and put you on the game's rails rather than your own. In this case, it puts a huge restriction on the mapper, and just isn't realistic unless the entire game is built around it. Accomodation of it aside, this just isn't the type of game to benefit from skills. It's a modern thing that's bled out of RPGs into the AAA scene to let people feel like they're progressing somewhere because it's just not enough to beat the thing anymore, which is understandable in most cases given how damn easy they are.
Airship Ballet. First of all please do not quote a cut sentence made by me. It's very distasteful. And it looks you did it to take advantage of it. Metal Gea.. I mean, HR is a good game? It might be, but It's not a good Deus Ex Sequel! It feels like Eidos Montreal took the inspiration from Mediocre games isntead of the Original Deus Ex. Guess What!? They did the same thing with this new Call of Thief. I won't deny I enjoyed to see the frustration in Thief Fans all over when the game was released. I drank a glass of wine in the balcony of my apartment in the Projects in celebration! (Evil Laugh!) lol So you guys feel the same way I did when HR was released. I LOVE THE NEW THIEF!
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If you want to ask for modern gaming ideas/conventions, then you should be prepared to face comparisons to modern gaming. I don't care one bit about what games you like, they make no difference to the points you are making, or to the points I am making. If you want persistent leveling (how does that even make sense, why would completing the Thomas Porter series make William Steele a better thief?) which is a modern game convention (outside of the RPG genre, where you are typically playing the same character anyway).
TDM has solid game play through NOT embracing those modern gaming conventions, and instead sticking to the conventions of the T1/T2 era, where those conventions were not at play. If you don't want to face comparisons to the modern games of the era you're drawing these suggestions from, then stop suggesting them, you don't get to eat your cake and have it too.
NOOOOOOOOOO THOSE ARE NOT MODERN GAMING CONVENTIONS! That's why I mentioned Deus ex 1 and System Shock 2. Those games are not considered new and they had those elements.
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Ten years ago I would have nodded, but I'm not sure anymore. There is immense competition for peoples' free time, and some of the options are really cheap. You can get months worth of stuff for something like 10-20 Euros on places like GOG or Steam. Many people don't play free games, they just download and never touch them. They don't even touch the ones they paid for. Convincing people that a game is worth their time is a big challenge.
On another note, I am all for adding NHAT to TDM as a default mini-campaign. It is well-written, it is polished, and it has a sufficiently large scope to make you think of the possibilities. So, why not?
The fact that it's free makes a huge difference when it comes to people's perspective. If you charge a dime for this game the criticism would be way more severe than what it is now simply because you charged a dime. I don't mean by this that it deserves harsh criticism. I mean people will scrutinize a game from head to toe just because you charged for it. It makes a huge difference.
The problem with that is that you're suggesting gameplay elements that have been repeatedly condemned in a fair few places on this forum. TDM takes cues from a game made during a time where that kind of thing didn't exist outside of RPGs. Everything you got, you picked up in the map, and the items themselves were progressively more and more powerful. It's based on item progression rather than player progression, and not in the sense that you upgrade the items, but rather that you find better ones as you go or as rewards for very difficult exploration. It's simply a modern re-imagining of something from a drastically different industry. Levelling and persistent progression is a trait of some modern games, and they haven't influenced the game in that respect.
Because Deus Ex and System Shock are RPGs with skill levelling, while TDM (and Thief) are stealthy takes on FPS games of yore that didn't use skills.
Both System Shock and Deus Ex use stealthy elements as well as First Person Shooter elements with skill progression and rewards.That's why they are considered excellence. Because they were able to wrap all these elements so well.
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Considering that aside from the few series (Thomas Porter, Corbin, William Steele, the thief in NHAT) most missions are different nameless protagonists in different places, a system to climb faster or whatever would largely go to waste, you aren't playing the same character most of the time. No one said anything about CoD until you brought it up, so where is this progression you're talking about? How could it harm TDM? Well, it could possibly harm the game by being the fifth wheel on a car when only four are required, especially when all existing maps have been balanced against the protagonists being all at the same level. A solid base is only solid until you start taking to it with a sledgehammer, why fix what isn't broken? Why don't we add in silent takedowns? Or maybe a cinematic aoe multi flashbomb toss that blinds and burns enemies around you? Any other addition would only make it more rich, right?
YOU DID IT AGAIN! Stop doing that! I do not like Human Revolution! You are now indirectly passing judgement on me as if I were a HR fan as if I wanted those elements in TDM. I did say that TDM has a very solid gameplay. gameplay mechanics! It doesn't mean it's a solid game in terms of rewards or lasting appeal and story line.Back to the main topic, I haven't played the New Thief but based on most reviews I've seen most of the complaints come from game play mechanics (not being able to mantle, jumping) and story. What I meant is that TDM does not suffer from those gameplay issues.
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Aren't you tired of seeing examples of B.F. Skinner's work in gaming? I know I'm sick of games that try to keep people pressing the button for rewards in place of actually being entertaining across the time you spend on it (unless you're the type who enjoys the grind, in which case more power to you, but I'd had enough of that by the second expansion of the only MMO I've played, and it's not for me).
You judge me as if I were a COD fan. lol I'm a big Deus Ex/System Shock fan and both these games are excellence in Rewards and Lasting Appeal. Why does it need to be different with this game? Of course I would love to be able to sell my stuff and buy new equipment. That's part of being greedy and greed is a huge element in this game. I would also love to see progression of my character, see him grow in experience, climb faster, move faster, being more agile overall. How would these elements harm TDM if THE DARK MOD ALREADY HAS A SOLID GAMEPLAY BASE. A VERY SOLID GAMEPLAY STRUCTURE. Any other addition would not affect this rather make it more rich. If you already have a solid structure I don't think adding those features would affect the game in such a way that would detriment the whole experience.
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Tears of St Lucia has a big Achilles Heel and that's the guard at the beginning who serves as a roadblock. Which is a subtle way to force the player to take a certain path and as rabid Deus Ex fan I got pissed by this and stopped playing for a long time. This to me wasn't a great first impression for the game. Why would a guard stay in the shadows at night instead of below a light source just a few steps ahead? besides he was hidden and forcefully placed and it's just follows the path of modern games in a way.
I would like to pinpoint the fact that TDM is a free game, therefore everyone and their dog will download and try this game, whether they played Thief Games before or they like the mechanics or the concept or not. And they will pass judgment like that. At the same time TDM is protected by the fact that it's free and many people will show countenance when criticizing it.
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Well of course the Dark Mod is not a game! LOL Obviously if you're a fan of the New Thief and you see people comparing both, you're gonna use the best excuse to exclude the strongest competition right off the bat. The Dark Mod is a non related Mission Based game with a veeeery SOLID GAMEPLAY and no one can wash that off. Please don't feel discouraged by this. These people are simply looking for ways to avoid the comparison by ruling out TDM cause it's easier than defending NuThief.
Having said that, this game could really use something to tie the Missions down. Because as good as TDM might be it suffers from two problems, lack of long term rewards and lack of sense of progression as you feel like you start all over again with each mission and that can slowly diminish the lasting appeal. Since creating an official campaign that can be compared with other Thief or Stealth games can be two much of a Challenge for a small group and doesn't seem viable right now, I think the possibility of creating a Store withing the game that the player could sell loot and buy equipment that applies to all Missions would be a way to add the elements of of Long Term Rewards and sense of Progression. Also giving experience points depending on difficulty completion could work as well in exchange for who knows what.
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Hopefully we could see some of these additions in the game Deadlove.
Here are some ideas for new weapons:
- Holy water arrows, instead of having to apply the holy water to arrows, having the option to buy holy water arrows with twice the cost of regular water arrows. The whole Holy Water+Water Arrow was a element I never understood in Thief. It's pretty tedious in my opinion.
-Silver Arrows: Used to deal with Vampires, Werewolves or Demonic Creatures. Just to be there in case someone plans to include them in a Mission.
-Oil Arrows: If a guard is carrying a torch, simply set him on fire!
Or to be used in conjunction with the fire arrow to create a fire wall or make a trap.-Back stab: This is not a weapon but rather a gameplay change by turning the back of a guard as vulnerable as the head, so it can be back stabbed with a frontal thrust or poke with a sword. I don't think it's necessary to add a Dagger if you can do it with the sword.
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As a beginner myself I took the advise of a forumer here and played Knighton Manor. The map is less confusing and more logical than most and the gameplay is fun and varied.
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I like the idea in the second picture because it communicates two bits of information at once - that you've completed a mission at least once, and (presumably) the higest level of difficult the mission was accomplished on. Makes it very easy to see at a glance which missions haven't been completed on their hardest difficulty yet as opposed to just a simple checkbox in the list.
Well, the idea was actually quality rating displayed as well as the difficulty setting of the mission. It's true that both parameters are quite relative and non of the Missions really has a quality or difficulty ranking right now. But it could serve as a way for the player to Filter the missions they want to download based on quality or difficulty of the map. Your vision makes more sense cause it pinpoints the difficulty. Maybe the stars could serve as a way of incentive to the player to finish the map at a certain difficulty.
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Perhaps something like this?
Or:
(The pics above are just examples).
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I would like to add one suggestion to improve the game experience. (probably was suggested already). Marking a mission as complete in the list after the player finishes it. It could make the available missions list much less confusing if you have already downloaded most of them.
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Thanks for the advice Springheel. Now I know you can also hear the sound of the next room if you lean to a door.
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That's great! I also recently discovered you can blow candles by pressing Enter. lol I usually threw them to the floor and waited for them to turn off. This game is actually more interesting that I initially though.
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Thanks. Good to know. I guess I need to practice a bit more.
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I was thinking about body weight rather than aerial take down using the blackjack. After all if you fall from a roof top or a chandelier in a interior map you should be able to take down or even kill (depending on height of the building) a guard if you fall on top of his head. I though I was able to do this or throw an object from a certain height to knock out a guard in "Return to the City" but failed every time. :/
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Sorry to ask again (and if it was already mentioned before). But, can the player knock out a guard by falling on top of him from a roof top?
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I learned that flipping the gamma and brightness against the default setting works best for me. I darken the shadows in a way i can still define the texture behind the dark areas, but just slightly.
Things that could be improved
in The Dark Mod
Posted
I guess you can't really back stab a guard if he's in front of you. Just as a simple alternative to hit them in the head for or a single shot with an arrow.
This was precisely what I proposed earlier. Making the player able to render a guard unconscious if the player falls on top of the guard's head from a higher point.