Raven

That is fantastic news, many thanks for the reply... I am only just beginning to learn programming in any serious manner, so unfortunately it maybe in the 2 to 3 years (when the source code is released ) that I could actually become useful. (Of course I still plan on using DARKradient to bring to life more tales of the only honest man in the city... and I plan to use as much thief mythology as possible ...of course I will have to learn dark/radiant - it can't be worse than Dromed or T3D). Anyway, a green balloon for Ishtvan; the sound system is practically what makes the game thief. Oh final question, by default will guards be able to hear the PC when the PC is moving while crouched? (and of course more sound while running and normal (i.e the same as the guards) while walking and less while creeping?). Also in this respect are you handling it as though there is a certain base noise level generated (again say walking guarding) and applying stackable modifiers for the various stance and acceleration and texture the PC is experiencing. Now I have just started rambling, but I am thinking about analogue acceleration control like was supposedly possible in thief 3 Xbox - I wonder if it was "analogue" adjustments to the sound system that were also being made (well, as analogue as computer software can be ) Point – at least it can be done, and presumably that would encourage non sloppy level creation… and yeah for eax too!

Hey I am getting really stoked about the dark mod, it looks like you guys are doing great things. I only wish I could help, but umm - I still have a long way to go with my l33t haxor skills (probably the first step would be to buy doom . Couple of questions 1) How is the sound propagation (and attenuation?) system coming along... by this I mean features such as a) sound travelling down (and attenuating down) corridors and through doors instead of straight through walls sound travelling through walls appropriately i.e. through plaster/wooden stud walls but not through thick stone walls. c) sound being blocked by doors... eaves(sp?) dropping through doors by leaning into them. d) footstep noise levels being dictated by surface that is walked upon (how many different types of surfaces are you planning, can an editor assign different noise levels to a specific “floor suitable” texture? e) AI responding to different levels of intruder noise being created i)footsteps ii)fumbling, knocking stuff over, distracting the guards by throughing stuff in the wrong direction f) How AI handles non-intruder noise levels, e.g will the noise generated by a large noisy turbine mask garret's (umm... I mean a player character's... footstep. g) EAX i)implementation ii)map creators ability to implement (similar to dromED's and eax setting rooms) ---basically in summery how is/will the sound system comparing to the dark engine's? 2)sorry for this again but how exactly are you expecting people to use this mod... you are working close sourced just now, but presumably upon release it will be possible to add onto your great endeavours, but to what extent (e.g. errm such as messing with the sound system) I haven’t looked into editing doom 3 properly, but i guess that the source code isn't available and I haven’t seen the SDK - but to what extend are core elements of the engine such as sound "moddable".

well, that definately addresses my concerns... and apparently I am justified in them. unfortunatly you don't get to decide if what you have created is "a great toolset for 21st century thief levels". That is the screaming demanding and unwashed users that decide in the end. -- I was't asking for the right to demand something, only advising that suggestions from front end users propably shouldn't be ignored if you plan to develope something that YOU want THEM to use. *If* you want me (or anyone else) to *use* your mods then there is the one basic demand that any user has... that it is worth their while. ---And yeah, it annoys the hell out of me in a gaming community when someone thinks that idea generation (sometimes in the realm of complete fantasy) is enough to warrant praise and can act as a war cry into action despite being unwilling to devote time to the realisation of the idea. Saying which idea generation is still important, as is listening to what people want if you *expect* them to use your product. But as oDDity said this is a totaly reasonably attitude to have, it would just be be nice to have "a great toolset for 21st century thief levels" and some people may think that climbing gloves are essential for this... but you guys don't, probably believing that end quality is more important than features (the same reason rope arrows and water were left out of Thief 3?), again totally justifible goals for your project.... and goodluck to you (when i develop skills I might see if i can help you along... maybe... if I am convinced of the merits of the project, like i might d/l the mod eventually, again if I am convinced of it's merits.) ---And finally Ermmm, I know how to use a forum! My glib end comment was eluding to the idea that I have shown interest in your mod, thus acting as an external verification of the justication of the external merits of its exisiance and the time you have spent upon it. [[please note that this post is more about design motivation and philosophy behind making/using mods and creating/playing fan created content in general: - I *was* originally sceptical of the dark mod when finally the thief 3 editor was a reality, believing that it might split the community talent resources, and that we (as the whole thief community) should focus on T3D, but *now* it is obvious that the future of thief is the dark mod and I am pretty much 80% behind the project – swimming, rope arrows and potentially the whole doom 3 community too YEAH! Anyway, from what I can tell - cause this is Doom 3 we are talking about - all the missed extra stuff can easily be added after the first release – by humble FM creators if not the dev team…. Keep going guys, you rock!]]

Hmm, see it was this sort of attitude that confused me about the dark mod to start with... At first I considered the "professional" approach to the mod a bit OTT, but I think i get it now. I hope that it works for the mod but I also hope that the inner workings of the team are a bit less... stalwart(?). After reading these forums and ttlg it seems somebody must be monopolising the fun factor, if the joy is not shared around then people will burn out and not feel the love of the project enough to pull through the long development journey you guys have ahead of you. I am not saying that the love isn't shared internally, but the PR machine seems kinda cold, all I'm saying is that I hope it isn't indicative of the inner workings. As I said, I think I understand the professional approach *and* the cautious PR management but don't take yourselves too seriously to the point you sound arrogant; a great portfolio or a great person to work with, who would you hire? So I get the uber professional approach but I am still concerned about what you guys see as the final result of this project. There is talk about priorities, which I also understand, you have to stay on task, but is this going to turn out as a toolset that you guys are really proud to show off; an excellent Doom 3 mod showing of your leet modding skills, or, a really cool "toolset" that can create great thief levels with? If you are aiming to create a great toolset for 21st century thief levels, then who are you to say that scouting orbs, slowfall speed inv potions aren't essential thief? Apparently LGS thought they were and dismissing them off hand seems kind of arrogant. I know this is a fairly minor item on the big scale of things, but in the end I wonder what sort of development beliefs lie in motivation of the project. Does this mod say; "Look at me, look at me, pleeeeaaase use me, I am a great toolset, and this is going to rock. You are going to have so much fun --- HEY Mister! Yeah, you with a precious small amount of spare time. Devote it to meeeee, cause the pay off? MASSIVE!" Or "Look bud, you are lucky to have this. i am clever, i am great and I've sweated blood and tears to be so - you are so privileged to be using me, you just don't have a clue." I know that this may sound very harsh, but this is why the love of the project (and any project/map/hack/mod/... non-commercial game) has to be there, self sufficient, within the team. Who are you doing this for? no really it is a serious question. I know your time is precious, but IMHO mine is more so, so why should I give a care about this project if it is only your pet bunny and yous can't even be bothered to put in scouting orbs. This is exactly the same problem level editors have, "Who am i making this map for? Why should someone even care to download the map and waste their precious time on it? I should be thankfull that they spent time playing my humble little map". If you can brush these ideas off with the belief that you are self sufficient and you don't have to win over anyone else's attention then good luck! but a little friendliness and flexibility to outside ideas and influences will go a long way to getting people to cheer on your cause. --now aren't you gratefull i took the effort and time to register and rant