thestemmer

Somebody tell me that Hammer was joking...right? Right?

Getting back on topic, anyway... One thing that always struck me about the Thief universe was the fact that the forces of nature (i.e., the pagans) and the forces of "progress" or "technology" (i.e., the Hammers and the Mechanists) were each treated as equally dangerous and frightening in their own way. To me, the Pagans have always represented the most primal fears of human civilization--the fear of the unknown, of the "other," of collapse into barbarity. The Hammers, on the other hand, are disturbing because they represent the worst excesses of human civilization--the police state, corrupt bereaucracy, machine religion, a loss of contact with what it means to be human. Whatever you decide to do with your campaign setting in the Dark Mod, I hope that you keep this basic concepts intact, because it is these opposing ideas that really gives the Thief universe its powerful sense of dramatic tension.

For anybody who's been living under a rock (don't worry, that's where I spend most of my time myself) there's been a huge outpouring of mobile (read: cell phone) games released in the past six months or so. Well, it looks like Eidos has just produced a cell-phone version of Thief: Deadly Shadows, so if anyone's curious there's a review at Gamespot.

Just pass the idea onto Rockstar Games, they'd be happy to make it for you.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Victorian setting of the Thief games, but I'm also very intrigued by the aspects of it that seem to hearken to a much earlier time period. I've always associated the religious struggle between the Hammers and the Pagans with the struggle between Christianity and the earlier pagan religions of Europe. Seeing as Christianity spread from cities, I'd have to assume that the Hammerite religion does as well, which makes sense given the nature of their beliefs. However, seeing as the Hammers seem to think of themselves as a threatened minority, one can only assume that the Pagans have the upper hand in terms of the number of followers. While Christianity was able to convert entire countries within a few generations, the Hammers do not seem to successful. To me, this implies that the continent where the City exists is still a mostly rural, largely undiscovered place, not nearly as united as 18th century Europe. The few large cities would exist as islands in the vast wilderness, something like city-states. The uneasiness with which the city dwellers refer to "the forest" seems to me to suggest that they are afraid of it and the concepts it represents. Maybe that's why the fanatical industrialism of the Hammerites seems so appealing to them. I'm sure that's all pretty improbable from an anthropological standpoint, but that's my take on it.

I really don't understand why so many people are worked up over this. Saving isn't a part of the gameplay, it's a utility. Of course some people will overuse it. So what? It's their loss. I don't see how not letting them save makes the game experience any better for you individually. To me, it sounds like a rather spiteful attempt to force people to play the game in a way that they don't want to play it. I don't think that's in keeping with the spirit of the project, and I seriously doubt that it would give the victims a better "appreciation" of their game experience.

I meant what were the original acuity settings in the minimalist project before you changed them?

Hey, I actually have my visual set at 2.5. My audio's only at 1.4, though. Personally I didn't like Garrett's Thief 2 lead shoes. What were the original settings?

Hey, New Horizon, sorry for not putting this on TTLG forums, but I thought this might be a quicker way to get to you. I'm strongly considering installing the Minimalist Project mod, but I'd like to know something about the visual/sound/tactile acuity of the guards. Do you think you could give me an approximation? I use Thiefbot, so if you could try using that scale, I'd appreicate it.

I think, obscurus, that limiting save points is an unreasonable demand on the player. Some people, including me, actually, would like to have a limited save or checkpoint system, but the fact is that it's so much simpler when you can just save anywhere. Not everybody in the community is a "hardcore gamer." A lot of people like being able to save often so they don't have to waste their time doing things all over again if they make a mistake. Now I'm not saying that you have to appeal to the lowest common denominator, this is a fan-based project after all, but I think you have to make some accomodations people who don't feel like making a major time commitment to the game. To a lot of people it would just seem cruel. If anything, I think that a limit on the number of saves should be an option that you could toggle on or off.

I love how these threads tend to stray completely off their topic title. Not that I'm complaining.

I'm all for creaky boards, but I don't think there should be a random chance of the boards making a squeak every time you step on them. I think it would be better if their positions were placed intelligently by the level designer. If the designer really wanted to, he could make it so the location of the creaky boards change every time the level is loaded. That way, the player couldn't memorize where they were.

Yeah, what inspired you when you designed the prelate? The image of him with the two bent hammers looks very bizarre, very appropriate. Certainly much more intimidating than your average Christian bishop, although the Archbishop of Philadelphia doesn't exactly have the warmest smile.

Sweet pineapple Jesus! oDDity I want to have your babies! Oh, and by the way, did you change the color on the Builder guard from the previous screenshots, or is it just the lighting? It looks a little more maroon-colored to me. Whatever the case, I love it. I think my favorite is the forge-worker, but all of them totally blow me away. Which one do you like best, oDDity?

Springheel: I'm not looking for a comprehensive artistic vision from the team, just a few informal ideas about what members might want their setting to look like. Unless you'd rather discuss it as a group first, that is. On a side note, could anybody define "woo" for me? I've heard the term thrown around a lot by OdDity and others, but I'm not sure what it entails. Is it a sarcastic way of referring to magic, as in MAGIC WOOHOO, or WoOoOoO, like a ghostly sound? Maybe it's an acronym for something, or a word translated from Klingon? I really have no idea.

It DID make you pick up and admire those deliciously-rendered apples, though.

I've always thought that one of the most compelling aspects of the Thief universe is its ambiguity. Most fantasy games hit you over the head with all kinds of useless minutae in an attempt to create a sense of "immersion," but not Thief. Like the real world, the Thief world takes itself for granted. The City is The City, the Hammers are the Hammers, and the Pagans are the pagans, nothing more and nothing less. Instead of wrapping the plot and the backstory up for you in one neat little package, the Thief games have always thrust you into a living universe, You have to feel your way through it, through all of its people and their dirty, decadent, fascinating, contradictory lives. Without intending to "de-mystify" the Thief universe, therefore, I'd love to hear how different Dark Modders picture the the world that they are creating. Most people agree, for example, that it should be vaguely "Victorian," with some elements, such as bows and arrows, that are strictly medieval. But what about other things, like the area beyond the city? Very little has been said about this in any of the Thief games, intentionally I am sure. But as mod makers, level designers, story writers and the carriers of the Thief legacy, I'm sure you have some thoughts on how you are going to develop the setting. For myself, I've always thought of the pictured the Thief world as a combination of extremes--you have a few heavily populated cities, with buroughs and smaller towns dotted around them and a few well-traveled roads, but the rest of the world is mostly wilderness. In my vision, it would be similar to Europe prior to colonization, with maybe 70-80 per cent of the land covered by forest. The Pagans--most of whom probably wouldn't even call themselves Pagan--would be much more numerous than the people in the growing cities. Only a small portion of them, however, would even have encountered city folk, with those closest to cities the most extreme in their beliefs. Again, I don't see any need to "overdevelop" your setting, so I'm not sure if this would be relevent or not to the campaign that the team is planning. Mostly I'm just curious to hear some of your thoughts on the matter. Oh, and for the record, yes, I know it's not a "Thief" mod, but a "Thief-like" mod. Let's just pretend, for a few seconds, that it isn't.

http://www.thief2x.com/t2xmirrors.asp. But the Dark Mod team isn't allowed to play it until they're done.

Hey, I wasn't serious, New Horizon. I'm definitely hoping that they didn't wait until a few hours before its release date to fix bugs, though.

Arghh! It's 10 minutes into May 15th and Thief2X still hasn't been released! I cannot abide in this extremely unpunctual behavior! Oh wait--I'm on EST.

I'm having trouble downloading the OST...it keeps getting stuck at 48%, or 99%, or whatever. Any ideas as to how to fix it?

Don't listen to him, Dram! Leak all of the information you want!

I'm sure everybody agrees that pickable locks and competant AI should your first priorities. I also think it's very interesting that a reverse-mantle a possible item on your to-do list. How do you think it would be helpful in the context of the game? And just out of curiosity, how tall is your thief going to be? Will he be able to fit under a table when crouched?

Deus Ex! I forgot about it! Now I've replaced my graphics card, I have to go finish it, you bums. Thanks a lot--I'm going to be holed up in my house for several days, now that you've mentioned it.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. I don't recall ever being able to crawl under a table in any of the original Thief missions or in Thief DS, but maybe that's just a problem with the static meshes. Still, isn't an average table about 2.5 feet (.76 meters for all of you people with real number systems) high? Is our thief really short enough to fit under that when crouched? Anyway, I could see a lot of different uses for crawling--you could conceal yourself in low foliage, hide behind a low outcropping, get under a low platform or a bed perhaps...imagine, you're in a bedroom, you hear footsteps approaching so you duck under a bed, only to have the person lie down on the bed...wouldn't that be a great pickle to get yourself out of? Granted, again I don't know if it's even possible with the D3 engine or worth the time and effort, but I don't think it would be a useless skill to have. I might agree that tapping on walls isn't really necessary, as long as you have some other method of diverting a guard's attention. Did I read somewhere that you guys wanted to give the player a bag of rocks he could throw? That seems like a pretty practical alternative. As for hanging off ledges, it seemed like a gimmick in MGS, the king of gimmick games, so I can't imagine that people like OdDity would let it pass.