woah

Ah, it's what I feared. Anyways, just so this thread isn't a total waste, I have an unrelated question about programming in general. I started learning Java Programming not too long ago in college, and I'm enjoying it very much. If my other classes didn't consume so much of my time, I would dedicate more of my own personal time to it. Being that you all seem to be quite learned in programming, I would be curious as to how to approach programming for games. One of my questions is, why is C++ preferred over Java in game programming? I've also heard C++ and Java are quite similar to one another. Does anyone here know both Java and C++? If so, could they explain to me the general differences? Lastly, being the experienced programmers that you seem, could you direct me to some good beginning C++ programming tutorials, and game programming tutorials? Also, could you give me any pointers as a novice--but eager--programmer just recently only sticking his toes in the water? To give you an idea of how much of a newbie I am, the most complex program I've ever written is one in which calculates the greatest common factor of an indefinite array of numbers.

There is a certain problem existent in all past Thief Games that often irritated me during gameplay. It consists of a situation in which you, the player, are in a shadowed, dark area, but the remote background behind the player is lit in bright light. An AI-guard or -servant positioned in the foreground approaching the player would not notice or emit even the least significant audible that they had realized your presence, yet it is quite apparent that--in real life--one would see the black-filled silhouette of the player against the brightly lit background. My question is, would it be possible to employ a feature of which would make it possible for AI to notice you in such an instance? Likewise, would it be feasible (meaning that one of your poor coders wouldn't have to spend months of day and night headbashing, solving a near impossible logical conundrum that would, in turn, only distinguish itself applicatory in a rarity of situations)? Such a feature would need to have its own schema as an AI's perception of your presense in the above situation would be further dependent their distance and the intensity of light in the background. Give me your thoughts on this

I figured there was something like that out there in the mod world. But--like you said--the levels are not designed for that difficulty level, so I assume I'll run into many bugs and such. Thanks anyways though What needs to be done is not to limit the number of blackjackings based on the fact that it would not be "thief-like"--that's avoiding the problem. Such a feature makes the game feel less immersive and real--it's a "simulation within a simulation." The solution is much different. The player has to feel pressured into the aversion of killing and blackjacking guards and other AI as a result of knowing the consequences that would distinguish themselves in doing so. Guards need to feel like more of a threat; they need to have superb artificial intelligence and they need to be dangerous. In no circumstance should a player be able to successfully "take on" more than one guard in a fight. Sure, guards should, of course, still captivate the dumb and docile caricatures that are so classic to the thief series, but the player should know that under that facade of idiocy is a ferine brute--much larger and stronger than the player is. Guards need to have good communication skills, at least some indication of logical thought, and need to employ an attention span or memory that lasts for over 20 seconds, at least. I have ideas on what AI modifications could be implemented, but I'll leave it up to the team to employ implementations that solve this problem present in past Thief games.

I think the Thief games were made too easy--especially when in reference to incapacitating guards. It's rediculous how you can circle around guards, swinging at them with your sword, and kill them almost effortlessly. In addition, they can't really hear too well or see very far at all (it must be something like 25 feet before they even notice you--even in the brightest conditions). These three things, eyesight, hearing, and guard difficulty are what disapoint me the most about Thief. Such ludicrously advantageous game mechanics (when in reference to the player) is what makes average players like Forsaken forgo the intended act of stealth. Thus, being that the game permits such a gameplay style--perhaps even favors it in some cases, you can't really blame them for doing so. Thief was obviously designed for the intention that players would sneak around in the shadows and incapacitate guards only when necessary, though; killing/black-jacking is repeatedly advised against in the game. The fact that expert mode denies you the ability to do so makes this clear. It makes me sick to read reviews or skim through walkthroughs where the author black jacks practically every single guard in the game. I fail to see how anybody could find Thief fun if they played in this fashion. I really hope The Dark Mod makes thieving a lot more realistic and challenging, for the gameplay's sake. Better, and more aware, responsive, and realistically challenging AI is the key.

I don't quite understand fully; the simplicity of your reasoning is making things pretty ambiguous to me. Where do you live?

Can't work because you're foreign? ... Enlighten me please.

I can see how this relates to the dark mod, and I like the genre. The name is really odd though, and I was convinced it was some sort of fantastical, nerdy term, like cyberpunk (which is a genre I absolutely despise) that the team had just thrown in the description.

Just out of curiousity... What does SteamPunk mean?

I don't think the models need any more color--they look perfect to me.

Tell me if I'm wrong on this, but I'm sort of under the impression that the team had decided not to create a single player aspect of their mod at first, and just supply the props and such, but somehow found themselves starting to develop it. Is this true? If so, are you planning on adding 2D cutscenes?

Just wanted to show my appreciation for the mod once again. The past few updates have been superb, as always. The new models look amazing, Oddity--the quality is way above average, and probably the best out of all when compared to that of any other mod. Time after time I look at these and think I'm looking at the media of some funded retail game. What makes it even more amazing is that these models are shown ingame, and not through some pre-rendered image (Like most mods use to make their poor or subpar media look much better than it really is). I'm sure you have an even more successful future in professional game design awaiting you. And by the way, are those simply poses that the characters are placed in, or are they in the midst of animation? I hope you make a model for a chubby, drunk guard too, like that of in Thief 2 The animation of the failed black jack attempt looks great too. It reminds of some of the animations used in Thief 2, and it makes me happy to think that this mod is staying true to the Thief feel and atmosphere. In addition, and it dont want to make it seem as if I'm favoring some media over others, the maps are looking great. I love the props and furnishing--again, they remind of the Thief feel. The only thing I would recommend is making all of the screenshots High-resolution (IE: This one http://www.mindplaces.com/darkmod/screen22.jpg compared to this one http://www.mindplaces.com/darkmod/screen29.jpg . They use some of the same props, but the detail level and resolution makes one look strikingly better than the other, though the composition of the quality is the same). The light gem interactivity sounds really unique and superior to the previous thief games. I can only imagine the possibilities offered by such a scheme. I'm sure you're tired of reading this rambling of mine, so I'm just going to end this by saying everything else sounds like it is progressing great, from the player movement to the sound propagation and beyond. Everytime I see or read any of this stuff, I feel like playing through Thief 2 again (and sometimes I do ). By the way, and this just came to me, is the team planning on implementing professional voice assets for the guards and such? I remember one of my favorite things about thief was the unique sound resources. Is it expensive to get a good vocalist? If so, I'm sure many of us here would be interested in donating (I hope)

If you do make lock picking, for the love of god, don't make it out to be even the least bit reminiscent of Thief 3's catastrophic rendition (In fact, avoid creating The Dark Mod with any references or similarities to Thief 3--the game is an insult to the Thief series). I would also recommend making the least HUD possible. Perhaps if you want to check your ammo or something, you can hold 'R' to open your pouch or show your arrows holster. I actually know of a few mods that are doing something similar to this. One is an ultra-realism World War 2 mod for Half-Life 2: If you want to check how many clips you have, you actually look down at your belt (or whatever is holding it), and if you want to check the ammo in your gun, you actually have to take out the clip (Or you'd better count your shots . The mod really has something if you ask me: http://www.resistanceandliberation.com .

I was just curious how the team plans to go about enemy visibility in accordance to lighting. Will there be preset areas of darkness as in the Thief series? Will the darkness intensity be based on the Doom 3 engine's dynamic lighting? I know there will be a light gem, but will the light gem be a representation of the model's visibility, or will the light gem's visibility factor be of itself with the assumption that the player model visibility will be adequate to the light gem's? I also noticed that in Doom 3 there was never really any different intensities to light--there was hard black or plain light. Is this modifiable?

Ah, in my opinion it's not something of much importance. I was under the impression that the fabric sway was something based on physics and not animations. But anyways, those models look amazing like everyone has said. It's not that often that you get "retail" quality in a mod.

Is some of the fabric on those models dynamic? Does it sway and move somewhat realistically like some of the fabric in Splinter Cell? Maybe dynamic isn't the correct word.

No problem Although s01mel1 and s01mel2 are my favorites, that was also a very memorable music piece. It amazes me how each and every piece of sound in the game corresponds and harmonizes so well with the atmosphere. And the sheer amount of guard speech files amazes me! I certaintly didn't think there were so many in the game (There must be atleast 100 for each of the 6 different sets of guard type voices--and that doesn't include the hammers, the pagans, or any of the other groups!).

Hey, I just added a few more. I think m10sadQS might be the one you're thinking of. Actually I'm quite sure it is--it sounds exactly like you described. Kind of sounds like an alien, pulsing organ or something. I might also suggest listening to Herechik.wav I'll have the FTP back up in the morning again around 10:00 am EST. I need to give this computer a rest. ftp://148.64.182.116

Ah, I figured. Would it be a crime to perhaps make something similar? Well, anyways, I figured out how to setup an FTP and put the two files on it. I'm on satellite, so my upload is very slow. I'm not sure if it is legal to be providing this, but, if it isnt, please edit this post. ftp://148.64.182.116/

Ok, I have the sound files. Unfortunately I dont have a website to upload them to. They're about a megabyte each. This brings back great memories...It's one of those music pieces you could listen to all day. I would greatly appreciate it if someone could provide me with some hosting. I would really like to hear something similar to this in this mod.

I believe we're on the same note. My friend has the Thief 2 game at the moment. Otherwise I would try and extract the sound file and make a small clip. But anyways, I really hope there is something similar to this piece in this mod. Maybe a sort of "remix" could be done up.

Ah, wow these are quite nice. I can see myself playing Thief through many of these. There are only a few tracks which I feel unfit for a thief level. I don't mean to sound too critical, but my only intension is to provide feedback in which will help the team improve. I find that anything that has any sort of distinct rhythm (sort of like UT2003/4 music) would not compliment the gameplay too well--anything that makes the player feel like they have to get into action or hurry. I feel that thief is about taking your time and thinking things through, and not feeling stressed to accomplish a goal in a hastey fashion. A steady beat like such in Deviginti, Caves (part way in), The Dark Mod Teaser (not sure if this is an actual track planned for the game), or the clock-tick rhythm in "The Clockwork" would make the player feel hurried and would be unfit for a thief game. Although they may fit the stealth theme, they seem like more of a sort of Splinter Cell game to me. Some tracks feel as if they have too much additional noise; such as "Inside the Mansion"--reminds me of Resident Evil ambience. With the exception of those, I found the selection quite good, and I also feel that, with a little work, the ones that I pointed out could be made just as good. My favorites of the group would have to be Underwater, Outside the Mansion, Twins, The Clockwork (excluding the rhthymous ticking), Mechanists, Cathedral, Defiled Church, Dark Wood, Alienbirds, and Musicbox. Lastly, I dont want to sound like I'm against rhythm or any sort of beat, but just more or less that I dont feel it is fit for a game like this.

I am a big fan of Thief 2 (I've Never played Thief 1, and I just wont comment on Thief 3) and I am looking forward to this mod very much. Everything looks on par or better than todays top retail PC games and seems to stay true to the "Thief feel" and atmosphere. I have great confidence in the team. Just looking at some of the screenshots brings back good memories, some of which I hope to re-experience through this mod. One of the things that made Thief 2 so great for me was the music. There was just something about it that made the whole experience complete. I can still remember the "dreary like" music in the first level of the game that captivated me so thoroughly. I was just curious if you would be using such music (unless there are copyright problems) or creating some that is very similar--almost identical?

Models are looking very great. Just wondering if they will be incorporating facial expressions like in Doom 3 and half-life 2. I don't want these great models to look stiff and inhuman in the game. Also, will the same type of sword play that was done in Thief 2 be in the Dark Mod (Meaning that the sword is actually an object that is part of the game and just not some model that does damage within a certain area)?