Oktokolo
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Posts posted by Oktokolo
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IMO it would be easier to make ships slightly bigger. I think that it's quite rare that player tools or abilities are changed to match the environment, typically it's the other way around, because it might feel too noticeable or inconsistent to players.
Getting the ability to use the blackjack in a doorframe would be great though. Also, cramped spaces really fit a steampunk-medieval setting very well and add to the (feeled) tension of beeing a burglar.
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I mean, I wear glasses, but I never see lens flares when staring towards a light, and I may not be the fastest person in the world, but I fearly doubt that even that one will notice blurring effects when running (except the Flash, maybe
).The Flash does not experience motion blur as his vision and processing is as fast as his motions and reflexes. But he certainly experiences a color shift towards blue when looking ahead and towards red when looking behind.
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Nope, it is tracked as issue #4712.Is the removal of green checkmarks intentional? I'm late to the party, but I can't find mentions of this anywhere. Those were pretty useful.
It happens when you have more missions installed than fit on one page.
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but TDM looks a bit dated, between the other games.
That is just because in TDM nothing has fresnell
Before i played the new Thief i was somewhat hyped on the visual quality of the trailers. but then i completed it and the repetiveness of their tilesets was way too obvious. Most TDM missions feature hand-crafted geometry that does not repeat too much and different mappers create maps featuring different styles.
So TDM indeed lacks on the technical side without use of physical based rendering, tesselation and ambient occlusion. But it still has the best mechanics and is steadily improving - now we even have soft shadows and will maybe get parallax-corrected cube maps too.
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The Bum Simulator and Project Hospital look like they could be fun. Anno 1800 and Jurassic World Evolution look like the typical AAA (probably shallow game and lots of eye candy).
I never would have expected to find TDM in the simulation category though...
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This is just the daily bump to keep the thread alive.
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Well, that just proves what i wrote, doesn't it? Why does all moving AI enter the same room at some time? That makes no sense at all. Imagine you want your mansion to be guarded. Would you place and order your guards to guard the same areas? The answer is obvious i would think. It's one of those things i just don't get in some missions. Guarding the same areas, while leaving other areas unguarded at the same time makes no sense at all.
I did say nothing about the overprovisioning aspect in my last post. It was entirely about difficulty for a blackjacking-oriented player. But i guess, that most guards are sloppy and do what they want instead of what they are payed for.
Also, guards tend to sleep at work or get drunk in the cellar. Having their patrol routes cross each other allows mutual checks for presence and soberness. Only one of a group of N guards with at least one common patrol location needs to be disciplines enough to report the others if they fail their duty. So there is indeed an incentive to have multiple patrol routes cross each other in the same room.
I even had it in several missions that there are even 3 or 4 guards in the same room at the same time. Imagine how unguarded the rest of the mansion is at that time. I also had it that guards walk around in all kind of weird places, which made it almost impossible to hide bodies.
I like it when guards actually guard a place. And i like it when servants look like they do their job too. The lord strolling between the library, his room, his office, the outhouse, the cellar and the maidservant's quarters also is somewhat plausible in a game where rich people need the player to get some sleep...
Of course, people wlak around in all kinds of weired places in TDM. It is to make bodies lying around risky. You have to find spots, that nobody needs to enter and that are not a possible shortcut between other spots. Try to stash bodies under stairs, on or between complex furniture, nobody would try to sit or sleep on. If there is no good stashing spot around, you can always travel to a better one or guard a lesser one and dispose everyone that comes along.
In general, having to look out a bit for good stashing spots is a good thing in a game like TDM. But i often just stash bodies in dark corners of well-frequented rooms and have no problems with other aI finding them. If your lightgem is fully darkened when hiding there, a body would be invisible there too.
In conclusion, it's not only more logical that guards have a set path, it also makes the gameplay more enjoyable for me, especially when you're a knockout player.
I am a knockout player and i like crossing patrol routes and some randomness in AI behaviour. I also like stashing AI in a tiny dark corner betwen a wall and a vase in an otherwise brightly lit room. The body hiding is a core part of knockout playstyles and is easier to do in TDM than in Styx (as in Styx you often have to find unused furniture while in TDM you can abuse almost every dark spot between a wall and stuff, AI can't path through).
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Secondly, and more relevant, it makes life extremely hard for the player, if the AI is too unpredictable, and it makes the gameplay less enjoyable, especially when you're a knockout player, who relies on thinning out certain areas, carrying and hiding the bodies in certain places, and, if one AI after the other comes into the room (again, it happens in some TDM missions), it can be a huge PITA.
Predictable AI is obviously easier to knock out. But i played all of the TDM missions and did not find guards using random routes much harder to knock out than guards using static routes. Lightswitch baiting and intersection camping work extremely well against random patrols. In some missions i can knock out out all moving AI by just camping in the first room of each new area for a few minutes (yes, it certainly does feel like cheating because of its efficiency).
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Both Styx games are good stealth games and nice to look at. Sadly, there is no modding support.
Oviously, TDM is much more complex than any other stealth game on the market and therefore every other stealth game is a "casual" game for "real" TDM players.
But Styx features an original story, open and therefore reusable maps (and actually they did reuse maps in later levels to reduce development time), and entertaining humourous gameplay elements. On the bad side where the lack of loot, the obviousness of the tileset and i missed non-lethal options for AI disposal. Also Controls where definitely clunky but mageable (probably designed for game pad) with some training.
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I would like the mechanic allowing to lure zombies into a room and trap them there by closing the door. Would be like the water arrow above the the torch-wielding guard: A nice feeling of gaming the game.
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You're trying to make a DeusEx style mod for TDM engine. I was thinking about modern-day game (with as little SF as possible) and on a better engine.
Do modern engines support the lighting and sound propagation a thief-like needs?
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I was just playing through my mission, Briarwood Manor, and a guard went on full alert a floor below me. I wasn't seen, and there was no way he could hear me, as I had a least 3 visportals between him and me.
Sounds like a leak between rooms on the two floors. Check the brushes sealing the upper from the lower floor.
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Although I'm sad this isn't a Thief game or Thief spinoff, which I would far prefer, it does intrigue me.
It looks like a similar genre and the gigantous dungeon scenario is easier to optimize. So the final game should be playable with 30 FPS even on my ancient gaming rig.
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Oh yeah, it sucks, but I'm curious because if we pulled it off it could easily lead into more adaptive forms of boss AI.
TDM AI already seems to be better than the AI in the videos when it comes to search behaviour. Patrols are completely "scripted" though (with some optional randomization). Fighting already works pretty well.
Pathfinding could be improved (keep seeing AI bumping into eachother and having problems opening doors especially in older missions).
And the concept of boss fights in general do not seem to fit into the stealth genre. They where what everyone hated about Deus Ex Human Revolution.
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The video perfectly demonstrates the absurdity of the concept of boss monsters or bullet sponges. The player repeatedly sinks his combat knife's blade into the neck of the boss. The boss monster does not get weaker, change behaviour, show any sign of reaction to what is expected to be an instantly lethal wound.
It's like an unintended scene from "Monty Python and the Holy Grail".
Surely you could make TDM AI almost invincible and modify alertness handling so it calms back to "business as usual" level after a ridiculously small amount of time. But the real question is: Why?
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I don't think, there should be a problem even when just altering an existing mission - as long as the modifications are allowed by license, the result is named unambiguously (wich most likely is a requirement of the license anyway) and attribution is given correctly (wich also almost always is rerquired by the license).
Not every mission modification has to make it into the TDM downloader. There could be a forum for stuff that did not made it into the downloader.
And i don't know whether that is already supported by the engine, but there might be PK4s that patch the PK4s of a mission. Missions tend to get bigger and bigger - maybe mods for missions should be considered a valid thing too...
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if you can KO an alert guard by hitting them in the head from any direction, I can't see any reason why anyone would ever use a sword again.
For style!
Maybe, obsoleting the sword is the goal. I am fine with reloading if a guard starts to fight me. Others like killing them with the sword. And some want to be able to just continue their blackjacking spree without waiting for the reload. Nothing wrong with cheating in a single player game...
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I may not get the point - but isn't unallowed derivation not one of the "problems", licenses have been invented for.
If someone does not want to allow alteration of "his" stuff without explicit consent, then someone should chose an apropriate license like the CC-BY-ND(-NC).
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Agreed but some people are proverbial slowpokes like me.
No problem. You are not expected to actually use that sword in combat in almost all missions (exceptions are the training mission and one with a forced duel). The player only carries a sword because everyone and his dog has one in TDM's game world (and you had one in the other thiefs).
There definitely are games with more easy and more satisfying sword fighting out there (might even try some mainstream hack'n slasher like Shadow of War - looks good, is fun and lets you kill dozens of orcs without even needing to have mediocre reflexes).
And blackjacking is dead easy even for us slowpokes. Also there is the bow as another easy option to gas or kill AI. I never use the sword for actual combat in TDM (iirc i even glitched around the forced duel in that one mission somehow).
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And that's a shame, because i'm not a ghoster, but rather try to weed out the patrols.
That is exactly my playstyle too. And by now you know, that i find blackjacking to be rather easy in TDM. But i did not play original thiefs's for a long time. Can't remember, how easy it was back then.
Nothing against some blackjack hitbox size slider on the options page though. I too don't expect the regular player knowing how to mod core game mechanics.
Another issue i ALWAYS had with many missions are the guard's patrol paths. It absolutely makes no sense that there are patrols, which have such a complex guard path, that there are 3 or 4 guards in the same room at the same time (which kind of defeats patrol paths, doesn't it? Why would there be 3 or 4 guards in one room, while anything else is left unguarded?).
The guards are comparable to typical security staff today. They are mostly minimum wage workers. Most are sloppy and like to chat. The difference is that in TDM they have the license to kill and you have plenty of shadows to hide in. Also the patrol system is not that advanced. A lot of the mappers try to reduce predictability of patrols to make guards harder to avoid. The pathing system supports this by having weighted nodes of wich one is randomly choosen each time teh guards arrives at another node. If you have multiple guards with patrols including one room, it is unavaidable that the situation will occur that all of them are in the room at the same time. It is avoidable by designing the location with patrols in mind. But most of the time, the owner of the place would not have done it and sloppy patrols and guards playing cards are nice game elements in itself...
Overall at the moment where things feel awkward in indeed is swordfighting, especially with Builders carrying hammers. They're really quick. Does anyone feel like combat could use a Mount & Blade like setting to adjust the speed of battles (animations)?
For me, combat in TDM serves to enable me to reload myself instead of beeing forced to by a failure screen.
It's not hack'n slash game. Combat should be hard even for experienced players and might or might not be awkward to do. And of course you never should be forced to do it.
So combat is fine as it is now. Might even make it a bit harder because AluminumHaste showed us, that you can defeat tens of guards with good timing. And you definitely should not be able to do that in a first person sneaker.
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AluminiumHaste can show you the way.
Honestly i am fine with the difficulty of swordfighting and that i am not able to defeat guards in a fair duel in TDM. It should be almost impossible for a thief to win against armored guards in a duel. TDM does it right. At least if you - like me - never train swordfighting...
I only use the sword for assassinations - where i still prefer to blackjack my targets first before beheading them with an overhead swing of the sword while sitting in a safe spot where no one can see their blood spill on the floor (don't waste precious water arrows on other peolples blood).
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By the way, will they ever sheath their swords again and if so, how long would that take. Otherwise waiting would make no sense at all...
They only do, if they are not that sure that there really is some intruder. But even then, it can take several minutes of waiting. So just reload if you quicksaved recently.
Obviously, i did it wrong all the time then. That explains the random failures i get in some missions .
But, i don't feel like that is a reason to make it very hard instead.
I am doing it wrong for years and still did not had the impression, that blackjacking is hard. It in fact felt so easy, that i never thought about investigating the cause of the rare failures i had (i am okay with not having full 100% accuracy). Try swordfighting if you want some really challenging TDM mechanic. I never managed to win a duel with a guard in TDM.
- You don't have to aim for the head, but for the back.
- The blackjacking distance could be increased a bit.
- Guards are too sensitive/cautious. I don't know how it is supposed to be possible to blackjack a patrolling guard, when they already notice you walking. Again, in the original Thief's, you could run towards them.
The video does not show aiming at the back - it shows aiming at slightly above the neck.
Blackjacking distance feels believable but is hard to measure ingame because of the first person view missing almost all of the body of the player.
You see blackjacking of patrolling guards in the videos. Pay attention to the flooring and remember to use moss arrows if it is still too hard. I often successfully run toward guards to blackjack them - but i never would do it on stone, tile or metal flooring without preparing the spot with one or more moss arrows.
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Also in my opinion being alert or not can not help against someone hitting you on the head from behind!
It's a game balancing thing. You have to wait in cover (if the alert state is not too high), waste your tools or otherwise work around the guard if it draws his weapon. But you can always quicksave before a blackjack attempt and just reload if steping on a stick (*g*) or hitting the AI's shoulder (or even the ceiling in some missions).
And, i also don't like that you have to aim for the butt to hit the back of the head.
In TDM close combat you have to aim at what you want to hit, to reliably hit it. So aim for the center of the head or slightly lower (but above the shoulders). Aiming in this case means to point the center of the screen at the point to hit. There is no crosshair but you can train by highlighting small frobable objects like coins.
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I experienced the blackjack as the most reliable tool in TDM.
You can't blackjack guards wearing helmets featuring a face grill. But you can blackjack every other living human being. I mostly aim for the center of the head wich also seem to work well when blackjacking from the side or a sleeping person. Never target the shoulders and always lean forward for blackjacking sleepers (and hit em in the face).
I have grabbed a blackjacked and still falling body before it could make a sound multiple times (but wouldn't call it easy). So it should at least always be possible to snatch the last guard from a chain if you can get to him without beeing detected. You can then drop the body at a suitable location and get back to wait for the return of the chain.
Some other generally usefull "workflows":
Douse or switch off a light and wait in a hiding spot opposite to the light or switch. When an AI tries ro relight it, it will face the light or switch and you have some seconds to sneak up and blackjack it from behind while it stands still and plays the relighting animation.
AI most opf the time closes used doors. As for relighting stuff, AI needs to face the door to close it. Often there is a nice hiding spot near enough so you can quickly step behind the AI and blackjack it closes the door.
AI generally reacts to sound. So if you are not going for a ghost walkthough, you can lure them to some better blackjack locations by using noise arrows or throwing stuff around. Try to not alert them so much, that they draw their weapons, because most AI are immune to the blackjack when in such an alerted state.
Generally, AI seems to like staring at the impact location of whatever you shot or threw some seconds before turning around allowing you to walk up and use the blackjack if the flooring (or a moss arrow) allows.
Speaking of moss arrows: You can sprint on moss without making a noise - even if it lies above metal or tiles. Generally you never really need moss arrows, but they can ease the blackjacking business quite a bit.
Camping in a dark room for a while to blackjack every AI that visits it is the most logical (and quite lazy) thing to do when entering a new area (such as the perimeter of a mansion, a floor, or some other location that is epected to be frequented by AI).
Not about blackjacking, but you can safely douse a torch carried by an AI by firing a water arrow to something not too far above it. Most of the time torch-wielding guards are also constantly moving, so you don't feel like a cheater when pulling it off. But it is still the easiest way to deal with the torch of such AI and also worked on some elementals and burning undead in the past (save before trying).
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VIDEO: Top 10 AWESOME simulation/strategy games 2018-19
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I too like it when secret doors have an actual gap between them and the surrounding wall, when moving stuff leaves marks on the floor, or when there are actual foot prints or stains to follow. Some TDM missions feature such deliberately added hints that can be found by an observant player.
There also are TDM missions, wich have superhumanly perfect secret doors, that you just can't spot no matter how carefull you look because they perfectly seal with their environment. Sometimes you have to click-scan the whole geometry like in the old point 'n click adventures until you hear the click sound of a tiny secret button you only see the frob glow of if you exacly know where to look.
But in TDM most missions indeed use lighting, geometry features, placement and decals effectively to allow the player to find stuff without needing some secret vision or click-scanning the environment.
I don't think, the root cause of plot markers and secret vision are the casuals. It might as well just be the consequence of games having ever-increasing game worlds leading to division of work into specialized teams and less time budget per point of interest.
Having a plot pointer system means you don't have to care about written directions and matching world details. And secret vision means you don't have to care about somehow hinting at special stuff by level design.
His suit looks only red when he sprints away from you. While he is running towards you, it looks somewhat blue. But us mere humans probably never see him long enough to actually get a conscious visual impression anyway - making the (probably not) percieved color shift of his suit a purely academic thing...