Weasel
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Posts posted by Weasel
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The frob highlight is triggered by the code setting parm11 and is proportional to it. Might it be possible for the code to oscillate the value of parm11 during the period it detects the loot is within frob range? It cannot change the colour but it could make it flicker in some way; slow pulse or rapid flickering or whatever. Also, if there is enough objection, make it optional for those that want it. I'd certainly try it.
Yeah, this would be a good thing to make optional. In current missions that use familiar loot, most players wouldn't need it. Conversely, if a mission designer wants to use a lot of non-standard loot, they could specifically suggest that players turn the option on.
As a long-time Thief player, it would admittedly take time for me to get used to this feature, even though I'm advocating for it.
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IIRC rebb (or somebody else) experimented with a different "frob highlight", one that would slowly pulse, or whatever. However, the main problem remains: We are having only ONE frob highlight shader stage and it is the same on all materials (copy&paste). So during frob, the engine doesn't know wether this is a loot item, or not.
Nec. steps to make this to work (I am not saying we should,tho!):
* make two frob highlight stages
* add the new one to all textures used for loot
* make the code that determines frob set different variables for loot/non-loot
* enjoy sparkling loot
So it is not as easy as it sounds. Plus the nightmare of finding a consens on what the new highlight should look (you will find that after 6 months discussion, you get 4 fundamentally incompatible ideas and no way to implement one and make everyone happy).
Ah, if the engine doesn't know whether the highlighted item is loot or not, that does complicate things. However, it doesn't have to be done through shaders and materials. It doesn't have to effect the rendering of the object. An alternative that may be easier to implement would be to have some small indicator attached to the light gem. Or just have a little icon show up in the corner of the screen. This would be enough for a proof-of-concept, at least, to see how it influences the feel of the gameplay.
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And while I think a little glint up close sounds pretty cool I don't find it necessary, it's pretty easy to learn what is loot and what is not after a few maps anyway.
Further more the team is pretty much anti-glint anyway so I doubt it would go anywhere.
The point of this is to allow for new and more varied bits of loot that can still be distinguished without being made out of gold. It helps make it feasible for any mapper to use new loot objects that are not already familiar to the player. This would also be very different functionally from the loot glint in Thief 3. I understand the team being against that kind of loot glint (I hated it too).
Essentially, this is addressing the fact that the character knows somethings that the player does not. The character knows definitively what is loot and what is not, and communicates this to the player when the player frobs something by either putting it in the loot stash or making it hang in mid-air. This does work pretty well, but is not necessarily the most elegant way to communicate the information, especially when the player has to be very careful not to make noise when moving the object or setting it down again.
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Problem: You still have to get close to things in order to tell whether they are loot or not. (This is basically the same argument as with props doors)
This problem is a realistic one to have, though. It's hard to judge the material composition or craftsmanship of a small object without getting close to it. Prop doors are a little different, as they are "fake" in a way that non-valuable objects on a table are not. Plus, a prop door has to either be obviously a prop or else it has the potential to mislead the player from a distance (without some other identifying mechanism, which I would not advocate). There are more nuanced ways to use non-obvious loot. It doesn't have to be in a place that is hard for the player to reach, or that the player wouldn't go otherwise. It can be used for realism and variety, such as the examples Fidcal started this thread with. It would still be up to the mission designer to use well. Putting a visible but non-obvious bit of valuable loot in a dangerous or hard-to-reach place (without good reason) would be bad design.
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New Horizon's Minimalist mod (thank you ser!) Added very short range loot glint to TDM (frob distance only) which was nice, but still a little jarring to me, the above sounds ideal so long as the glint plays immediately upon mouse over and is mild. I think a quick shine glimmer shader or something would work well rather than a glint sprite that looks like some odd form of lens flare.
Ah, I haven't tried that mod. I agree that it should be something subtle. It doesn't even have to be a "glint" per se, just some kind of indicator that doesn't distract.
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Our design philosophy behind loot was to make it consistent and make anything that was loot "look" like loot. If we don't stick to that, then the cries for loot glint are only going to get louder.
Thief 3 ruined the idea of loot glint by making things sparkle from the other side of a dark room. TDM should certainly not have that. Has the team considered a different type of loot glint, that only appears when the player has the object highlighted in the center of their screen, ready to be frobbed? It would represent a sort of "appraisal" ability. Even considering just the existing loot, for new a player (or a forgetful one) who doesn't know what is loot and what isn't, it's more realistic than making them pick every item up to see if it makes a "cha-ching" sound or just hovers in front of them.
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Yes, all vocals need to be in mono format.
I don't know why that happened, but it was not the recording set up I'll be using to do the real thing. As a matter of fact, I just got a quick lesson on the setup I will be using and did a few test recordings. Springheel, should I send you my test so you can tell me if the sound quality and file format are ok? I saved as a wav, 24 bit, mono, 44 kHz. For some reason, Media Player played it too fast when I tried that just now, but it was ok in Quicktime. I also have a FLAC version. I just need to know where to send it...
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About "esmeralda", I agree with SH that the names can be start to get too repetitive. I'd add the same line with a few other names mixed in (Susan, Esther, Maria), so not every noblewoman has her chambermaid called "esmeralda", not every wench has a friend "esmeralda" etc.
It seems that another solution would be: any line that uses a name (and it would still be used in a generic way) has lots of other versions without a name. In other words, if "Esmerelda, is that you?" is a sound for to_alert2, there would be 9 others for to_alert2 without names, to make it come up less often. Would that work?
That leads me to my next question: is there an upper limit on the number of sounds that can share the same slot? I'm up to 17 idle sayings for my noble, and I can probably keep going.
I'm hoping to record my noble for real tomorrow. If we can get her script finished, my gf might record her wench as well!
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Looks pretty good so far. Just a few comments:
Some of the idle barks are a bit specific. A number of them talk about guards, for example, but what if the nobleman is sitting by himself in a tavern? Then the line, "these guards don't know what they're doing" might not fit as well. Of course, if it's muttered like he's talking to himself about something that happened earlier, then it is probably fine. Give some serious thought to using specific names as well; I know the other noble lines do, but I've started to regret it as every noble in every map talks about "Lord Wellend" and his steward. If you are keen on using names, I'd keep them very generic, and avoid things that might conflict with the story. For example, by referencing "Jeffries" as a character working for the noble, you're potentially treading on the FM's story...what if the story establishes the servant who handles the budget and his name isn't Jeffries?
This one:
also stands out to me as a bit specific, and not well suited to every story.
I see what you mean about the Jeffries ones, as they could interfere with stories. I think a little bit of name-dropping is nice, as long as it's generic enough. Maybe having more vocals sets will help with the repetition issue, too.
Here are some samples of my gf's voice for your approval. She's still not sure if she wants to do a whole set, but I'm trying to convince her.
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Here's the latest version of my script, if people want to check it out and give feedback. I do intend to do the ones that are currently left blank (some of them will just be grunts and similar utterances), and I'll also add more lines if I feel inspired!
Additionally, my girlfriend has been working on lines and a voice for a wench character. I might upload some samples tonight, to see if you guys like where she's going with it. I think it's very good, myself. Maybe we'll eventually record some extra lines that could be used to make the two converse with each other!
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I played Heart a few days ago (awesome mission) and encountered an interesting bug: when I returned to areas I hadn't been to in awhile, KOed bodies were all twisted around like balloon animals, as if some of the angles had been inverted or something. I don't recall if I ever saw it without having saved and loaded the game some time (since the KO), so it may have happened during saving or loading.
I also ran into one stuck AI: a noble was stuck on the door to the left of the great staircase. I actually went up the stairs and dropped onto the top of the door so I could frob it and move it out of his way. It worked, and he was none the wiser!
Oh, one more thing while I'm on the topic of Heart:
When I was standing on the rampart with the archer at the beginning of the mission, standing up in the light for even a split-second would cause the bald guy guarding the back door of the manor down in the courtyard would come running up to get me, presumably at alert level 4. While it may not be entirely unrealistic (if you ignore the fog, which the AI do, right?), it wasn't much fun, game-play wise. I've read on here about a change already made to the top of the AIs' vision cone to make them less sensitive to things above them, and I've read about potential plans to add a delay to AI reaction-time. Maybe the combination of those things would make all the difference. It would be nice to at least be able to peek down at a fairly distant guard without alerting him so much.
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"3 per character" are out of date suggestions. The (x2) refers to two different versions of the line.
Thanks for all the info! I just need clarification on this part. If the "3 per character" guidelines are out of date, how many of each specific type should be included? Should I match the number of examples given for Average Jack (which is the same in many cases)?
Would it be ok if I sent you separate files for each bark, all zipped up? Or if I do send you one file with all the barks, will you be deciding how to use them, or will you follow my script? The reason I ask is, some of the lines I've written deviate a little bit from the guidelines, to add personality to the character. For example, level 1 alerts are supposed to be subtle enough that he doesn't know whether or not there's a person there, but he's arrogant and assertive and sometimes assumes the disturbance is caused by a servant or guard who's not good at following orders.
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Ok, I'm not sure exactly how to pose these questions, but I'm a little unsure as to exactly what needs to be included in the script... I'll just rattle off a bunch of things.
If I'm doing a noble, would I include the merchant and cook idle sayings?
Which greetings would I include? I'm looking at the Average Jack example, and I don't see any greeting types that would apply to nobles.
Are the "3 per character" things minimums, maximums, exact numbers, or suggestions? What about lines that say (x2) or (x3) at the end--in the idle phrases and in some other places?
Should phrases related to attacking be included for all characters, even those that usually would not (such as servants and wenches)?
I'm sure I'll think of more questions, but that's enough for now.
I don't know how I didn't think of it sooner, but I remembered that my company has booths for recording voice-overs, and I can probably sneak into one of those some time soon to do some recording, instead of trying to get into the recording studio my friend works in.
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Hi weasel, thanks for the offer. The lines generally sound good, though some of them seem to have a bit of an "aristocratic" accent and others don't. The last one, for example, sounds far more like a rough guard than the others.
I think the overall quality of delivery is good enough for the mod, if you're able to record on some better equipment.
If you're able to send me a final file in mono, .ogg format, at a 44100 rate, I can cut them up and name them properly for you.
In the last one, is it just the accent that's off? Maybe the wording is not aristocratic enough? I was trying to keep the same accent, but with a little more force behind it. Anyway, I did most of these in just one or two takes, but I'll hopefully be spending a little more time on them if I get into the studio (and I should mention that it likely won't be for a few more weeks, at least).
You want one file with all the clips in it, eh? I assume you'll want a script, too?
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Neat personality and inflection.
Very unique. I like it. The American (midwest?) accent isn't too out-of-place, and should fit right in nicely. If you're unsure whether you've got every AI state you need, you can send your script to me for a quick review.
Thanks! I am American, from the east coast. People have told me I have a southern accent, which is somewhat similar to midwest I guess, but I don't know where I got it.
As for the script, so far I'm recording first and then writing it down second. I don't have the whole thing done yet (59 lines so far). I may have questions for you later, but so far I'm just following the "Average Jack" guidelines from the wiki.
I like these! Are you a professional voice actor?
I'm no specialist, but the alert-barks could maybe need a bit emotion. I mean: you're all alone and you hear a sound from an unknown source. Maybe a bit fear on the tone "what was that...? *shivers*"
But yeah, that depends on the character you're portraying.
Your voice might also work for a loud roughneck, that type is not represented yet in the mod vocals. I'm meaning that many of the characters we now have mumble with their voice trailing a bit. We could use a character who yells in anger so that spit flies.
Wow, thanks! I'm not a professional. Far from it.
Some of this guy's barks have more emotion than others. For the lower alertness levels, he's arrogantly assuming it's not an intruder, but just a guard or servant disturbing him. I'm still trying to get the balance right for all the different alertness levels.
Part of what inspired me to try my hand at vocals was the lack of emotion in pursuing guards that sound great the rest of the time.
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I'd like to contribute some vocals to TDM, if the team will have them. As a test, I wrote most of the script for a noble and recorded the barks with my crappy VOIP headset. I'd like to know what people think of the samples I've attached. If they show promise, I have a friend who works at a recording studio, and she will hopefully be able to get me in there to record them for real.
I also started messing around with a wimpy servant (ala TDP), and wouldn't mind coming up with some other vocals sets as well, if my noble is well-received. Also, my girlfriend is potentially interested in contributing as well, but I haven't recorded anything from her yet.
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Yeah, the AF (articulated figure, pain in the butt to make file) for the AI controls their legs.
It's weird because you animate their legs, but the AF controls it so they actually touch the ground over uneven terrain. So it kindof over rides/works with the anims to make it look best.
So their body follows the ramp of monster clip, but their feet will always connect with the stairs.
I tried making monster clip stairs and they get kindof buggy, 'cause their body goes bumpy, then their feet kindof go all over because of the body movement. Ramp is smooth.
It's like one of those puppets on strings, you move you hand back and forth to move the legs up and down, and the feet connect to the ground and add extra bend to the knees.
It's called Inverse Kinematics.
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I understand that it's a bad idea to have brushes overlapping where they will cause z-fighting, and it's bad when they lead to a lot of extra triangles, but is it always essential to not have them intersect?
More importantly: what about patches? Do I need to spend hours adjusting vertices say if two patches meet at a concave right angle, or can I just leave them be?
And finally, am I understanding correctly that func_statics can intersect with brushes (and patches) just fine, with no detrimental affect of any kind?
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I think part of the issue is that jumping in most video games is not realistic in any way, so a realistic portrayal ends up feeling very stunted. With that being said, I think adding just a little more oomph to running jumps would serve The Dark Mod well, as it would allow FM designers to include jumps that are a little more dramatic (without being lethal, because that's the wrong kind of dramatic). Even with a little practice under my belt, I only succeed in jumping to the awning in the training mission one out of three times. To me, it looks like the kind of jump that should be just makeable while still being fairly easy to pull off. If I had to do it in a real mission, I'd be very frustrated that I had to "cheat" to make the jump (by quicksaving and loading). The drama would be much better if I made a clean landing one out of three attempts, and had to catch the edge on the two that are currently failures.
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Wasn't expecting Nvidia, that's for sure. For the record, there are a few systems running a Geforce 8 on XP without this problem.
What Nvidia drivers do you have installed? Can you install the latest Nvidia drivers? Do you have any Doom 3 mods (3doom, parallax, etc) installed? Have you set Doom 3 to Ultra settings (someone suggested it may cause problems, but I'm not sure)?
Well, that was too easy. I installed the latest drivers and the problem went away. The thing runs like a dream now. I may have to try bumping up the anti-aliasing or something to get the choppiness back. :-P
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/me awaits specs, fully expecting ATI gpu...
FWIW, I tested Outpost last night, and looking across the room from the readable was slightly lower than looking down at the readable (as expected), so it isn't a problem with the readables or TDM. Have you edited the config manually by chance? If so, what did you change?
Sorry to disappoint you, but it's not an ATI gpu.
I realized I could get the specs from an old email, so here they are:
Windows XP Pro
Intel Core 2 Quad-Core Q6600 (8MB L2 cache,2.40GHz,1066FSB)
3 GB DDR2 SDRAM 800MHz (4 DIMMs)
768MB nVidia GeForce 8800 GTX
Assuming things I did with the St. Lucia demo don't carry over (I don't remember any more, but I don't think I changed much), I did not edit the config. I downloaded version 1.00 on Monday and once everything was loaded, I went straight in, adjusted in-game settings, and played the training mission. On Tuesday night (last night) I installed Outpost and played that.
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Huh.
That's extremely peculiar. And you mean to say that no other readables in that FM cause slowdowns? I may have to take a look at that particular model and/or guicode.What is in your PC rig? (I'm particularly interested in graphics card, CPU, RAM, and OS)
Actually, there may have been other readables that did cause slowdown. I just know that many of them did not. I think the training mission may have had others that caused it, actually. I'll have to test it again and get back to you. I'll get back to you on the specs of my rig as well (I'm not near it at the moment).
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Apologies if this has already been discussed. I did a quick search and didn't turn up anything.
It seems like certain readable items are causing a huge drain on my framerate whenever they're in view. I don't mean the version that comes up when I've frobbed them to read, but the object in the world when they're visible anywhere on my screen. It seems like there's at least one in every mission I've played, while the majority of them are fine.
Outpost is the mission in which I actually managed to narrow down the issue to a readable. The note on the desk in the Bishop's room causes massive slowdown, even with the candle taken away and with bloom turned off. If I stand on the desk, my framerate is fine in all directions except looking straight down. If I crouch in front of the desk, my framerate is fine in all directions until I stand up. If I look at just the chair, just the corner table, just the banner, etc., my framerate is fine.
In the training mission, I encounter the same thing when I look at the book on the pedestal in the center.
In the Saint Lucia demo, was there a readable in the basement? I remember a framerate issue in one particular spot, but I didn't figure out what the cause was there. I can go back and check if need be.
I haven't played Chalice or Crown yet, but I can report on those once I have played them.
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Then again, I loved playing with "Legos" when I was a little kid, and the additive geometry mindset fits nicely with that toy.
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=yTuba531Fp8
(Lol that youtube code has "Tuba" in it!)
Hey, that's my baby! What a nice surprise to be in here reading about the Dark Mod and find a link to my own thing. I really should finish it some time...
Suggestions for more low value loot?
in The Dark Mod
Posted
You make a lot of good points. I think the feature would only be worth adding if it was based completely on whether or not an object would go into the "Loot" category when frobbed (whatever variable specifies that), and was not dependent on materials being set up correctly for every object. I do also think it should be optional if implemented. If that implementation is not easy to do, it's probably not worth the effort.