Fidcal
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Posts posted by Fidcal
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Yes, this happened yesterday and no sign of it even if I start a new mission. Hold on, one thing I've not tried is to load a map where I already put it - as I only have one such with Dark Mod resources. Yes, player start is shown in map (in black on black!) Select it, look in entities menu - it's back! Now I start a new mission and... yes it's back there too! Just gonna have a meal so will look a this later to see if it's permanently fixed, or what.......
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Yeah, I keep doing a second take myself. Here's a screenshot just in case I've gone crazy and looking in the wrong place!
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DR Version 0.8.1
Just got started and now my info_player_start has gone from the entity menu. To my best recollection this is what happened.
New map, create one room, add a light, add info_player_start then testmap. Ooops! Worked but had to use my lantern as no light. It must have been still selected when I added the start.
As an aside, it's hard to get used to this having to cancel a selection before creating a new one. Seems to me one would more often be adding a new item than 'associating' one with a previous selection. In Dromed I'm used to just click and create and holding a shift key to associate selections. But I'm sure tht's the Doom default and I'll get to deal with it in time.
To continue, added a light but now I think I had info_player_start selected. So I think that deleted the player start. Now I'm confused as to exactly what I did next as I was sidetracked by another problem. My background colour is black. In DR I found some entities such as player start were shown as black on black so, like a black hole, they could only be detected where the grid was hidden! Could not see any setting in the colour preferences for this. So after my player start was really lost I spent some time searching the grid for nothing!
Anyway, I then recall selecting info_player_start from the entity menu and got the error something like you must select a brush first. Huh? Not done that before. I think I did that then deleted it as probably a fault. Then I couldn't find info_player_start at all on the menu. Started over with a fresh map, even rebooted the PC. Nothing.
My best guess is I accidentally deleted it somehow in the inspector window thingy while it was focused. Is that possible? I tried with a barrel this morning but no effect so I just don't know.
OK, I searched the dark mod resources folder in Explorer for a file with 'player' in it but nothing obvious to me. So if a file has been deleted which one should I restore from the rars? Hell, I might as well have extracted them all again while I was writing this but I'd like to hear from someone first as I am in guessing mode here.
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Thanks greebo - very comprehensive list.
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Sounds good. Is there already a shortcut 'camera to cursor'? Or even on the right click menu 'camera here' and 'player start here' (see next)
Maybe something like this already exists and I've not yet found it...
How do map makers currently test play from a new position, ie, not the normal map start? Drag the player start where needed? How about a 'master player start' marker that will always store where ultimately player_start will be when the map is released, plus labelled markers that can be positioned anywhere to start at different locations. I did this in Thief 2. From a menu one can then select, eg:
Player Start:
Main start
cellblock
dining room
old tower
Selecting would move the player start. If that were integrated into the 'maybe' launch game from DR then the menu could be 'Play Game' or similar and one click runs the game from the selected start point. But even if that is not implemented, being able to quickly move player start to regular test points would be useful.
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I've now greatly improved my keyboard macro and can run any current map from Dark Radiant with one shifted keypress and return with Alt+Tab. The macro retrieves the map path and name from the Dark Radiant title bar into a variable, strips off the absolute path leaving only the relative part then switches to Doom, launching the program if not yet launched, and keys in testmap relativepath\mapname.
I'm happy with this and if anyone should get Macro Express I'll upload the macro to save you re-inventing the wheel. It's only 4 lines but would take a bit of head scratching for anyone new to ME's script.
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Thanks. I need to do some playing around with a command list I guess.
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testmap? Does that do dmap+map in one go? Even better, means I needn't worry about the size of pause n.
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Sounds good and that history I didn't know - that will probably do. Hope it scrolls up AND down unlike the crappy Dromed one which has a one way scroll. duh?
Meanwhile I had already tried my idea of a keyboard macro and it works OK. I'm using Macro Express and at the console I press Ctrl + D and ME feeds:
dmap name
pause n seconds
<tilde>
map name
And the map ran. I will refine this but it is promising. I should be able to get it to press Ctrl D or whatever in DR itself and it switch to the Doom 3 window and do the whole business.
Even so I might need to either keep the same map name, eg, 'current' and then save separate name saves every n saves as security. Alternatively it's probably just as easy to change the name in the macro now and again.
Exiting back to DR will be as before.
I've used Macro Express for years to add functionality or make programs do what they don't wanna do but it's not a freebie. Anyone interested in that method it might be worth searching the net for a freeware key macro program I guess otherwise you'd have to fork out about $40 for ME.
But for now I need to compare it with just using the history and see which is easiest.
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Sorry for delay; for some reason I am no longer getting email notifications of any replies from these forums even though I still have it set and it's the right email address.
Anyway, regarding switching between Doom (still not got TDM) and DR I was probably doing it right but it just seemed awkward to what I'm used to with Dromed - one shifted key and I'm playing; ditto and I'm editing. In the Doom console even when windowed there is no direct way to 'get out' that is, the mouse is 'trapped' in the window so no way to just click on DR as the mouse pointer disappears outside the Doom window. The only way I know is Alt + Tab to switch so I assume that is what you mean. I just didn't want to do that for the next 99 years then find HaHa there is an easy way. Regarding which, is there no way for DR to 'feed' a string to Doom, dmap currentmap etc., tilde, map currentmap, to get straight in by pressing F2 or something? You guys must have typed dmap like a million times by now! Wonder if my key macro prog will work in that console?.....
As for DR, now I think maybe that's what I did! The other day I think I downloaded the 'public' version but found it had no s & r so I thought I had the wrong one. Then in another session I found the SVN link, downloaded it, must have found it didn't work so instinctively extracted it again over the first download. Seems to be working at least as far as it can without TDM. My memory is not so good but it looks like I did two things right by dumb luck!
Thanks for all help. I'll carry on learning but meanwhile suffering from data overload.
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Thanks Crispy.
Odd, the DR zip is about TWICE the size of the exe (which I would have assumed is an installer?) so can I further assume there is more in the zip and the exe is just the changes from the previous version? Furthermore, I'm supposing to be checking out the S & R which I thought was fairly recent; those downloads are way back in January. I seem to be doing a lot of assuming and guessing recently.
My next guess is that they are the public issue and I should stick with the v203 that I've got? Anything else in the zip I ought to have?That disconnect might help but it doesn't provide any exit from the game itself. I'll check on the other forum to see what they are doing. I hadn't realized there is what I think is a general Doom level editing forum.
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Although I've been occasionally posting on the public forums for a year or so I'll just post a few lines here about where I'm coming from:
Background is Thief right from the launch of Thief 1. Dromed level editing since the end of 2002 so I'd call myself a moderate Dromed expert. One T2 FM released (yeah not much in all that time but it's a big one.) I'm not into C++ unfortunately though I'm a homegrown amateur programmer for well over 20 years: various BASICs, Z80 assembler, a junior qualification in 'C' (though now very rusty) and currently using IBasic for any odd Windows stuff I might need.
A year ago I could see that TDM was definitely the way to go so tried a couple of beginner's Doom Edit tutorials just to get some idea of what it was about. Resolved to continue with that once I finished my T2 FM which I eventually did early this year. Once I had the basics I hoped to produce a modest Doom map for consideration so I might get accepted as a TDM mapper.
Circumstances pushed me along when the S & R thread in the ttlg editing forum led to me being (willingly) roped in early as a contributor. So strictly speaking I'm not really prepared and many of the Doom editing concepts and terms will be unknown to me. I plan to continue for a while with what DoomEdit tutorials I can find as it is not yet clear to me whether they will be meaningful in Dark Radiant; I've already noticed confusing differences even in the Doom Edit tutorials I've found to what is in the actual DoomEdit I'm using so I'd expect that to be worse using DR. (I'm assuming here there is no 'Dark Radiant Absolute Beginner's Tutorial' available as it's still being developed.)
Anyway, I downloaded what I think is the latest Dark Radiant (v2.0.3 19th March 07) but I will not be able to get the main mod itself for a while because it's too big a download for me unfortunately. I am considering different options but at best it will be weeks before I can get it. BTW I've also been unable to find the download link anyway! (a nudge would help?)
That said, I took a quick look at Dark Radiant and was very impressed - especially for me to be able to change the colours as the default in Doom Edit is close to unuseable, the selected red on bright white for instance being actually near invisible! I expected other colours might help but one look at Dark Radiant in black background astonished me at how vastly clearer it is to me; I can really work with this!
Dumb question: in DoomEdit I enter the game using F2 then dmap at the console etc. I see no such route from Dark Radiant and I'm just loading Doom separately each time, exit to console to dmap, exit again to map then close Doom to get back to DR! Surely not?
I took a first look at the S & R interface and it seems excellent but I need to study it before I can add any sensible input in that thread. I've also been reading through various threads to see the thinking so far.
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BTW, this is not the same file browser as the open/save dialog but a folder browser.
Also, while I'm here, dragging all dialogs and child windows around leaves a bad trail lagging behind them. You know what I mean? They clear up in a second but looks like DR is not redrawing fast enough to keep up. Is that a known flaw? Or something odd with my setup? XP Home with 3.06Ghz celeron but old gforce FX5900. Should be enough. I've not had time to do much yet but install it. Before I was using the ordinary editor.
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Let's see... v. 0.8.1 - just downloaded this morning.
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There's a minor glitch in Dark Radiant you might not know about (or even want to know!) as it would rarely happen. On first run I got 'Engine Path Not Found' so browsed to the drive. There I had both Doom3 and Doom3.OLD folders. The browser was unable to show both; sometimes one, sometimes the other (I think when I switched between name order to refresh), but never both. I renamed Doom3.OLD to xxDoom3.OLD and then it was OK. Not everyone allows for suffixes in folder names - this was also true in DOS it sometimes gave probs. Anyway, if you are using a 3rd party browser you might not be able to fix it but worth being aware of.
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Mmmm... might get this but can't find it at amazon.co.uk so might have to get it from the US and probably pay import tax. Actually it might be cheaper as books are so expensive here. I'll wait a while.
When I dabbled with an on-line tutorial quite a while ago I thought it was OK but not great and some parts not clear enough. Anyway, at that time I just wanted to get my feet wet and get the feel of it and that was enough to confirm I would continue with Dark Mod one day. Sooner or later I'll have to get going again so this book might be a help.
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Yes, names might by corny but mainly if used in an excessive 'look at me I'm using month names' kinda way. But now and again it's useful, maybe critical, to refer to the odd name so perhaps it's a good idea to establish them. The same is true of weekdays. 'The shipment was on Thursday' implies the god Thor is known in the Dark Mod universe. Maybe he is so I'm happy with our Earth weekday names but best consider it now.
Month names might be derived from the seasons and weather : buds, greenleaves, harvest, ice, snow so they would obviously direct the player to the time of year context even if not everyone memorises every detail.
Season names might be left as Spring, Summer, Autumn (or Fall), Winter as to me they 'feel' like common nouns not derived from any historic or Earthly culture reference I recall. If we want to get poetic then maybe Greenwake, Something, Leaffall, Whitesleep but such could be used by subcultures like pagans (are they called pagans in DM?)
I'm not too bothered about any of this but can't see any downside to defining them or (declaring them not defined) all at the start.
I'm happy with the duration terms you mentioned. It can be inferred that the Dark Mod world is on an Earth-like planet because the action clearly indicates earth like gravity, hence most probably one in of a similar size and orbit and rotation to Earth (though in a fantasy perhaps anything goes.)
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One thing I would like to see in Dark Mod is a calendar system so logs, diaries, other references, can refer to meaningful dates in a consistent way. I don't know of any such for Thief 2 so in my FM I just used numbers eg, 233/25 and made my numbers consistent as I could throughout. I did invent the odd month name. But if month and day names are invented then thought as to year length, months in a year, etc etc and this also brings up how many hours in a day what sort of clock. I have no preference but it would be nice to have a reference.
Springheel: To what extent is the Dark Mod universe defined in the resources: textures, objects, AI, provided as compared to the 'official map/story campaign'? As I recall it was said the materials would be made available first and the official map (what is the right term for that!) later. So will mission developers have enough to work with as far as sticking to a central theme to begin with? Will the player character and the Dark Mod Universe be defined in the materials provided at the start, in an info file as well as by the resources?
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Sounds good and the flexibility should make any degree of difficulty possible I guess.
About my point of the player getting anything new to compensate, it's hard to think of anything, even for fun, to add to Thief's current tools. One idea I was wondering was a diversion similar to a noise arrow or thrown object - but which would reassure the AI when they saw it. In the movies its always the stray cat right? Can't see Garrett carrying a spare cat around - nor even a dehydrated cat potion - hey! instant cat! but it might be nice to think of some harmless object he could throw with a kind of anti or negative suspicious property. Maybe even anti-suspicion sedative gas grenade or arrow?
No, I'm not trying to give you guys more work, just playing with ideas. My vote is you do the reasonable minimum from now on to get the show on the road. Just hope you retain interest to do a TDM2 a few years later!
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Looking at the latest Jan 3 update about AI smartness and recalling previous info I am thinking level developers are going to have to be more generous in favour of the player to compensate. Is it going to be just too tough and/or frustrating to continue once the AI in an area have 'compared notes', are in extended alert mode, using smart searching, hurling bottles as well as insults at the player? I look forward to seeing these new situations but just wondered what game testing has been done yet to evaluate what it will be like with ALL the improvements working together.
It seems to me that players are going to have to develop new game strategies to cope with these AI. Ghosting might be the only option - and possibly extreme ghosting: closing, even relocking, doors behind you, closing containers, etc. I like ghosting but will the novice be able to cope? Mission developers are going to have to be extra smart themselves to produce the different difficulty levels to suit different skills.
What extras might the player get to handle this new breed of AI? They get the same basic weapons and tools as T1/2 so is it just down to the player developing new skills and strategies? One things for sure: it will be fascinating finding out.
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That sounds ideal to me Springheel. Will the level editor be able to disable or timeout that default on-going special alert state? Depending on the mission I'd be interested to see how it would be with a timeout after say 15 minutes. (actually I think one can tinker the alert time in T2 anyway per individual AI.) The player would have to either quickload or else divert to some other avenue/task and come back much later when they've cooled off. I see a re-arrangement of the guards, some extra guards brought in, higher alert, one or two keeping running round in a panic, but just like real people they eventually over time start to relax the alert but keep the extra sentries and patrols etc. Some players might actually deliberately trigger this for an extra challenge - especially on a replay. Mind you, my idea raises the problem of a second major alert! What then. Dunno unless you can detect its a second major alert and make this permanent. Can't keep bringing in more and more guards can we? Hehe!
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Crispy: I'm with Komag on this. You say "Forcing a playstyle on a player is generally a bad thing." My view is that forcing a writing style on a level editor is wrong. He/she should be free to write absolutely any kind of game they wish so long as they make it clear in the readme so the player can choose whether to play it. To have a constraint, pressure, or bias applied to any creative art is wrong in my opinion.
I generally like semi-ghosting but the notion that nobody should write an all-out combat mission without being criticised (for play style alone) is repugnant to me. "I don't like xxx because it is not Thief-like" is fair comment; "xxx has no right to be so unThief-like" is not.
Yes, a mission can be annoying; I've abandoned many a one with a curse - but I defend the freedom of the mission author to produce the level THEY want and not just write for the majority.
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TWO updates in one month? Nice going.
Good to hear about the improved leaning - something I value especially after the disappointment of the phony TDS substitute. Will the light gem be affected by leaning out into a bright area? Sometimes is in T2, sometimes not - don't know the 'rules' there, remind me somebody.
And the AI throwing stuff at an out of reach player - much better than just fist shaking. Will this rely on bottles and stones that happen to be lying around or will AI carry stuff. Will their accuracy be changeable by level editors? Seems if they have this ability that presumably you have some AI planned to throw some kind of weapon like a dagger?
And AI searching just gets better and better.
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Yes, go for it. If you produce some 3D models they are unlikely to be wasted as even if not suitable for the official resources the community will always be hungry for new objects to put in their levels eventually.
Info_player_start Missing From Dr
in DarkRadiant Feedback and Development
Posted
I'm glad I took that screenshot else I'd be beginning to think I imagined it myself. It does now seem to be fixed and I can actually start mapping with DM resources. But I do not have info_player_start_deathmatch.
But the problem with entities showing as black on black is close to unusable for me. Is there any way I can change them? Trying to line up a candle flame on a candle is hard when only one item is visible and you have to remember where the other one was and guess click at it. Sometimes items really are totally invisible and I think they are deleted.
I thought I'd try deleting that DR folder you mentioned. First I backed it up elsewhere. I noted in a log a lot of lines that say:
ColourScheme: Colour default_entity doesn't exist!
Open Dark Radiant and all settings restored to defaults. Select Game in File menu and enter Dark Mod. Open my last map. The xyz background is the default white. The player start does not show at all. It was definitely there before and I had previously noted down its coords so I could find it when black. I click on that spot. Nothing. It is not there. Open entities menu. It does show there but if I try to add it then I get the error "Unable to create entity 'info_player_start', no brushes selected." Save map with new name and testmap it. The map runs OK indicating that surely the player start must be there but not tangible in the xyz display at all. zero. no trace. Zoomed in or out. Background black or background white. I know its coord but it is not shown.
One maybe relevant glitch. In the 'select game' option in the file menu as I mentioned elsewhere I got corrupt text in the select mod box. This has now changed to 'rops'. If I click the drop arrow it shows one blank and the other is this 'rops'. Should it not say something like 'base' and 'darkmod'?
Doom3 itself was a recent clean install plus the 1.3 patch.
As I recall when I installed DR I just extracted it into the doom3 folder and set the shortcut parameters. Then later that 'Select Game' which I didn't know about.