ascottk

That is a helpful critique, thanks Dom! I wanted to expand this with some examples but I ended up with another major headache yesterday Man, I miss having reliable internet at home

I did a quick check yesterday & the forger's shoulders are thin enough for the new rig so I don't think any altercations are necessary. If the arms do clip with the animations we could tweak the animations. I'd rather see if widening the shoulders on the rig would work though.

If push comes to shove we could alter the rotations on the head joints.

That's a tricky one I'll see if the new rig can be used and modified. The character sets squill is using might work to import animations. What needs to be done with the spider? okay I'm just tired as hell. I'm having trouble sleeping this week.

*Builder Acolyte His mesh was easy enough to separate. He just needs the proguard hands. Noblewoman New hands, headless shadowmesh & shadowmesh for the head. Have we figured out how to deal with the neck seams? She actually has a necklace to help cover it. Elite Guard hands, shadowmeshes Eite Citywatch same *Mage I didn't find the mesh in oDD's files. I'll look again when I get home. Builder Forger Custom rig although the visor bone is the only thing that's different. He already had mitten hands in his design. I think we could use the new rig and put the visor bone in the head. Although squill made a nice animation rig for him. Revenant He needs everything. Spider Why? Naked Chick Pagan Female? She had mitten hands built into her design too. They might be easily replaced though. Any of the placeholders What about the builder prelate? I just added the new hands to him and the armor needs to be separated from his sleeves. Yes, but my post is nearly a year older than yours Look at my previous postings in this thread . . .

I've been under fire about staying true to the style oDDity brought to the mod so I'm starting a list (which is long over due) about how we perceive his work and how he may accomplish this style. This may help as a guide for anyone working on AI models, frankenstein or otherwise. I don't have access to his files on my laptop so can't I go into further detail about the proportions. Here's what I have so far: Textures: dirty (spotty, shaded for the worn look/false shadows to enhance normal maps, scratched up) some photo refs, some color fills roughly brushed but with a lot of color variation (some look sloppy but they are extremely effective) dark with less saturation than most other works (no bright colors) extremely clean normal maps (combo of hi-poly with texture normals) Models: smaller torsos and longer legs for the more fit AI approximately half & half ratio between torso and legs for heavy/overweight AI a lot of detail meshes (ties, layered armor, etc.) It's getting late so I can't come up with any more ideas. Some examples would be appreciated.

What ever happened to BlackThief and the nobleman mesh? BTW, "New" idea for character sizes? *Ahem* (a few posts back) http://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?s=&am...st&p=134832 http://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?showtopic=7881 & Spring, could you put links to your main posts (maybe to your journal & stuff) in your sig? I can't find info on the AI you've been working on from oDD's unrigged characters.

It's the texture/material. I'm not sure if I made them less startling when I uploaded them about two years ago or so. I'm going to fix them when they are more of a priority. Argh . . . . models/md5/chars/heads/common/*.tga are the eyes and they look a look whiter than when I saw them last. I put in a lot more grey so they'd fit the mod better but apparently they went back to their gleaming whiteness. weird.

No pauldron? He's starting to look too much like the other guards I think.

http://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php/..._Character_Sets I was wondering how it's going to be done too. It seems squill has things in hand Extremely nice find! Essentially what worked for me is opening the new rig with maya, have another copy of maya running to look at the anim I want for the amount of frames, adjust the # of frames to the rig, then import the animation clip to the new rig (after the character set is active of course). I did have problems with a wildly rotating right foot (with different animations too) after the import but other than that the animation went to the rig with new joints just fine. Just watch out for the animation curves. EDIT: BTW Dom, I forgot to mention that there are animation clips on model_src/anim_clips. I suppose after you're done with an anim you export the animation clip then upload to that directory. Check with quill first though.

At least the animations can be imported to the new rig with the new joints . . . whichever version it'll be. Until the rig is worked out though, rigging the other AI will have to wait. In the meantime the source models of the AI we don't have in the game yet (builder inquisitor, etc. . . source models can be separated according to materials) and the some of the older rigged AIs' def and material files can be prepped. I'd image the devs will need a more expansive character to play around with & it seems like they're picking on the builder guard. I think he'd be the last to be converted until the new anims catch up. BTW, how should the new tunics be rigged for the other AI? Do we give them more weight & let the rotations of the tunic joints handle clipping in the torso? Or do we blend be tunic mesh with the torso so animators don't need to fudge around too much with the tunic joints?

We have conflicting info on model_src & in the mod. tunic_fL, tunic_rL, tunic_fR, tunic_rR, is in the def file while the maya binary's new joints are LeftFrontLowSkirt, LeftBackLowSkirt, LeftFrontUpSkirt, LeftBackUpSkirt, RightFrontUpSkirt, etc. The def file joint names need to match the rig's joint names or we won't get too far And there are less joints defined in the def file. Has anyone tried to copy new joints to the animations? I have an idea about how that could work but I'm not so sure it'll work. You might need to have two copies of maya open & then copy the new joints from the rig to the animation MBs. Then you'll have to reparent & rename the joints to match the new rig. Unless I missed something in this thread. I'll see if there's an easier way. EDIT: I tried copying the new joints but maya copied the whole skeleton. EDIT 2: Are you using character mapping? EDIT 3: It looks like you are! The trax editor & character sets are useful things. Good work! Nice tut btw.

Another update: I decreased the width of the upper body, resized the arms, modified the pauldrons that still suck (I may replace them with something more appropriate or just get rid of them), made some texture updates (nothing major), and trying out a new helmet (modified proguard). The shadowmesh is clipping through, the overall textures need to be desaturated a little bit, and the back is a little boring.

I don't think the joints need to be so low, maybe go to half of the leg. If we need anything for the knee bending, which I don't think we need, then add more joints past the first ones. But that'll start making the rig more complicated to work with which was being were avoiding in the first place.

I'm annoyed when they don't critique & don't offer anything constructive. I'm annoyed about these little tdm world lessons instead of offering me anything useful. I can see that about the arms but the legs I also took from the builder guard. He's a scrawny guy. I always thought the thief had a small torso. I remember seeing posts about why the thief is so skinny & short, he has to squeeze in tight places & such.

If it's any consolation my builder imperial is trying out the new rig (& using its animations). Well . . . if you can't beat 'em, join 'em . . .

I could shape up the armor & I ripped off the head from a makehuman 0.9 export. The texture is a WIP but I have another idea for the head. The builder "imperial" is kind of inspired by the Imperial guards from The Empire Strikes Back I'll probably put a angled helmet with a nose guard on him to further play the idea of an Imperial guard. I like his face but the face texture probably needs more contrast (no specs or normals yet). And to quell this ridiculous notion about proportion, I loaded my guy and compared him to two of oDD's guys (proguard & merc elite) in DR: I don't know about you, but my guy looks proportional to other oDD models . . .

I'm trying him out in-game (pauldrons are looking funky): Normal maps are just getting started. & I agree with the upper armor. I scaled it down, then down again, then again . . . just doesn't look right. Finally someone knows the meaning of "WIP"! As opposed to the next post. This isn't Thief, oDD is rarely around, & the proportions on the frankenstein models have not looked well! You take take pieces of oDD's model & still not have them proportional. & btw NH, I've been drawing human figures and other things since I've been a kid. I have also made it very very very clear that this is WIP as seen in the thread title? Is there any other way to make that clear? I'm also looking for constructive criticism not a freakin' history lesson. And the render of the first pics are from Maya not TDM, except for this post.

I'm going to be a PITA again. If the new rig isn't finished yet, why the hell are we making animations for it? Why should we rig the 15 characters if the rig isn't finished? I wouldn't do anything with the new rig if it isn't fully functional yet. That'll cause more frustration in the long run. I would be more supportive if people didn't jump the gun and start doing things without a final solution. I keep running into posts about this new rig and only the devs/coders are wise enough to hold off until it's finished. Once again I'll remind you I'm using an internet connection that is not mine & it tends to disappear often. I'd hate to upload anything & have it stop when I lose the connection. So I limited to what I can do ATM.

Okay, I followed some advise and used the bg boots. A new render is at the bottom of the top post. This time I'd like some feedback/constructive criticism instead of "Oh, It'd be easier to use AI parts . . . " or "In order to stay true to oDD's style (which I don't buy)" . . .

Need two in the back too.

I whipped up this guy's body in less than a day & he'll use preexisting animations. How is that reinventing the wheel? Reinventing the wheel is using a new rig. I can model something from scratch in less time (as opposed to tweaking preexisting models) and the pieces go together since they were designed that way. The AI parts were meant to be tweaked so they would fit together. And I brought up a thread a while back about anatomy! oDD says the anatomy won't matter because the game will distort the perception of the model but he didn't back that up. I've seen the Frankenstein approach, and no insult to Spring's efforts (that is greatly appreciated . . . you have no idea), and using pieces of oDD's models does not make a good looking character. It takes oDD's artistry in order to keep things looking good but I saw another thread where he was trying to reinvent the wheel (new rig, citywatch mesh fix) like the new rig with the proguard. I don't know why the animators need to design a new rig when oDD had a fix a while back. Things do not make any sense. What frustrates me is that the mod is constantly being reinvented and not leaving well enough alone especially in the animation department. I would love to help but I'm spinning in circles trying to figure out where the mod is going. Do I use the new proguard rig or do I keep things simple and just use the existing animations that Spring exported? Do I continue to offer new AI models only to be shot down? Should I take my services elsewhere where they would be more appreciated? I'm sure there are other mods who would appreciate having more AI models and rigs without being held to the somewhat unattainable heights of oDD's artistry.

That's because the parts I chose were the easiest and most generic meshes to work with & that can be achieved with the right textures. Looks like the barmaid Dom's friend was working on . . . I still don't get why we didn't use those meshes. With the right textures they could've matched or exceeded oDD's style. To be quite honest, some of the Frankenstein AI do not look to well. I groaned when I saw the begger in St. Lucia.

Well, I think the easiest solution for the missing tunic joints is to add some from the hips: In Maya, use the joint tool & click on an upper leg joint, go to the z axis view (side view) and click where you want the joint. Point of no return? 10 animations on the proguard? Compare that with the 55 animations on the citywatch. & the new rig still has issues? We need to be realistic.

Ugh. Sorry to put a damper on things but you're being too optimistic. Since my time working on animations it took over two years to have the current city watch animations even with help. And looking through this thread, you need to realize that real life tends to get in the way!! There were a few posts in this thread regarding that issue. While you guys are fumbling around with a new rig, there are still more animations that the devs and Spring will need. I used the city watch skeleton for a reason: it was the most versatile and the most complete skeleton in oDD's files. Some of the other skeletons were pretty screwed up. Besides, after looking at the current proguard rig, I realize it's missing the joints (joint3 and joint4 for the left leg, and joint5 and joint6 for the right) that control the lower tunics of most of our AI models. When the leg angles upward, the tunics will float above the leg. With those extra joints/bones, we have more control on how the tunic behaves. I'm sorry I haven't been around but life happens (no job=no money for internet) but I think this will hurt the mod more than it'll help.