Picking Up Swords...

[obscurus]

Thats what I mean when I say " in allowing the player to use weapons effectively, you will have to adjust other areas of gameplay and level design to make combat undesirable" - fighting should be discouraged because it is noisy and attracts attention, and almost certain death if you pick on a guard within earshot of other guards. I guess i am trying to say that it's not that thieves cant fight, it is just that they prefer not to, because it not only risks their safety, but also their anonymity - a thief does not want to be recognised as such when they go down to the local pub for a brew, so being seen somewhere they shouldn't be would be disastrous for them in terms of keeping their occupation secret.

[obscurus]

And that is something that could have been done better in TDS. In the city levels, the guards all knew who you are, and would attack you on sight. But it would have been better if they ignored you until you were spotted doing something naughty, and then those posters could have gone up. You could even have it so that guards would ask you if you had seen anything suspicous last night, because they found a body but no-one saw you kill/KO them, rather than immediatly suspect you (even thouugh you do look like a sneaksie thief!).

[Pyrian]

I guess i am trying to say that it's not that thieves cant fight...

I cracked up when you brought up ninjas to support your point.

 

Anyway, ahem, my point is not whether thieves can fight, but rather can guards fight? A thief should not be a straight-up match for even one typical guard, IMO.

 

In games in general and FPS in particular it's quite usual for the central character to be far more powerful than the foes they face - but it's not generally realistic.

[FishFace]

What'd be great is if the system for fighting were good enough that the player's skill came into account. I think garrett should be able to take out a guard as long as the player's good enough, but if he isn't, then thief should go down easily. Basically, guards should have more hitpoints, better armour, but the should be ever so slightly slower. Still able to block and so on, but... yeah.

[Ishtvan]

We want to make it possible to beat a guard in single combat with full health. But at the same time, we don't want to build in some "trick" that you can use to do this every time (like running in/out and circlestraffing). Our plans for combat are still largely undecided so I can't say too much about it, other than T2 did a pretty good job with it so it will probably be similar, but harder.

[obscurus]

I cracked up when you brought up ninjas to support your point.

 

Anyway, ahem, my point is not whether thieves can fight, but rather can guards fight?  A thief should not be a straight-up match for even one typical guard, IMO.

 

In games in general and FPS in particular it's quite usual for the central character to be far more powerful than the foes they face - but it's not generally realistic.

Well Ninjas have a reputation that has been built up and exagerated, mainly because ninjas fight very dirty, while samurai fought with honour, and when the stronger, better armed opponent is faced of with a weaker, but crafty and vicious opponent, the outcome will not always go in the big guys favour. And Ninjutsu is, strictly speaking, the art of stealth and nothing more; ninjas practise ninjutsu first, and fighting arts second... Laugh if you will

 

Another example: the Vietnamese fishing cat is a little larger than a domestic cat, but they have been known to have killed leopards that have gotten in their way, purely because they are so vicious (Taronga zoo in Australia (where I live, in Australia, not in a zoo :lol: ) tried to get a pair to mate, but one killed the other in a matter of minutes (I hope I'm not straying too far off topic here...) What I'm saying is, it is never as simple as the big guy wins hands down every time, there are many factors, of which pure dumb luck is a big one, so I think it would be realistic for a vicious thief to win at leas some of the time against a guard, but he would rather not have too....

 

But yeah, it is unrealistic to have player characters who are much more powerful than their opponents...

Edited May 20, 2005 by obscurus

[obscurus]

We want to make it possible to beat a guard in single combat with full health. But at the same time, we don't want to build in some "trick" that you can use to do this every time (like running in/out and circlestraffing). Our plans for combat are still largely undecided so I can't say too much about it, other than T2 did a pretty good job with it so it will probably be similar, but harder.

I wouldn't have thought running and circle strafing was a 'trick'! If I ran into some bloke with a big sword, I would be running around trying to get a cheap shot in! You would be daft to just stand there and expect not to get whooped... I think it is perfectly reasonable and realistic that a lightly armoured thief would have more mobility than a fully armoured guard, I think it would be better if the guard only takes one good swing to take you out (an animation of the player being cut in half would be good!), and you have to jump around like a spastic rabbit to avoid be smashed, that way, a thief can only take out a guard if he is smarter and faster (and luckier), which is exactly how it would be in real life....

[Ishtvan]

Oh, I'm not saying you can't circlestraffe. It is indeed a good tactic to parry/sidestep someone of superior strength than you. However, we're not going to have the AI stand there like an idiot facing the same way while you pound on their side. They'll be trying to turn to face you if you sidestep, and if you try to jump back in retreat, they'll try to jump forward and hit you. Depending on how much time we have to work on the code, they will also be sidestepping and circling you as well.

 

What I'm saying is there should not be a trick that works 100% of the time every time (like get AI to swing at you and stop dead in their tracks, run backwards, run forward, hit before they're done swinging, run backwards, repeat until AI is dead)

Edited May 19, 2005 by Ishtvan

[obscurus]

Ahh, that sound more like it! And will the player be able to take more than one or two blows from a sword and live? I am hoping not, at least not on the highest difficulty setting. Getting hit with a sword should cause a bloody lot of damage

[FishFace]

Yes, I think the player should die quicker than the guards - obviously the guards, being a) meatloafs and heavily armoured are a lot tougher than a sneaksie thief. I also think the system in T2 was excellent, if a little flawed with enemies facing the same way - the fact was you couldn't just swing the thing; you had to actually block and swing when the enemy wasn't blocking.

Perhaps if the enemies tried to circle-strafe you, and run in-and-out a bit more (obviously slower than the player) then it would be more challenging, realistic and fun.