[My first map – questions & work in progress]

I'm kind of more concerned about lockpicking right now. I must say, I didn't get the system until The Gatehouse, because I wouldn't be able to finish it otherwise. AFAIK, players like Fen use auto lockpicking all the time, which is slightly boring. I'm yet to see how locks and chests work in the editor, so I guess there's either a way to shorten the auto-lockpick time, or I'll try to educate players on that via loading screen tips. I'd rather do the latter, because the system is cool, once you get the hang of it.

[My first map – questions & work in progress]

I like your entrepeneur spirit. However, all this has already been investigated. Check this and this.

 

I don't think it's 100% accurate, e.g. I managed to run + jump + mantle a ledge that was 192 U away from the jumping platform. It's a bit harder than e.g. 160 U, so I'd leave that for rare loot or highest difficulty.

 

Edit: although the good thing is, the damage seems to be fixed. In Deadly Shadows the threshold was way higher and damage was randomized, which was a little confusing.

[My first map – questions & work in progress]

I hope you don't mind I slightly changed the topic to reflect what's going on

 

Lately, apart from writing the story and thinking about general layout, I've been using DR to learn more about basic player abilities, mostly movement. I think I've got all the numbers down for mantling, walking, walking + jumping, and running + jumping.

 

Right now I'm looking at falling damage, and one thing occurred to me. Player's mantling reach is basically 128 u, jump + mantle (ok, it's actually 144 u, but for sake of simplicity...). Now, to make a ledge impossible to mantle, you need to put it up at ~160 u. Problem is, this is exactly the starting range for falling damage to apply. It's not much, just 5 health, but the idea is not to punish the player if he falls off the ledge or miscalculates a jump. Getting back to the position where you can reach the ledge can be frustrating enough (I'll try to use it in moderation...). What do you think I should do?

 

Hmm, I might have miscalculated something, I could swear at 160 u you get 5 falling damage. It looks like you get 9 damage if you jump and fall. That should do for now.

[Let's improve our level design skills]

I always had a bit of problem with lightning, and I think FM makers have that problem in general. Games like Dishonored or Thief reboot have lightning setup focused a bit more on aesthetic side, which is ok with Dis. In Thief, it makes things a bit too subtle, more often than not. That forces players to observe the lightgem rather than the environment, which is obviously bad. On the other hand, a lot of mappers just throw one or two major lights in a room, add the ambient_world, and hope for the best. That's not good lightning design either.

[Let's improve our level design skills]

Definitely, stealth levels are much harder to design, because the choice of lightning and textures directly affects gameplay, it's not just an aesthetic choice. The same goes for story and setting, that can affect a lot of factors too.

 

Besides, making abstract maps first is pretty counter-intuitive for the brain. Typically, I have an image in my head first, an interesting location or a shape, but something that looks finished. And the urge is to get to that finished state as soon as possible, not to iterate on raw building blocks. Discipline and patience is hard

[Download speed WAY too slow.]

Oh, sorry for that then. I thought it was one of the faster mirrors, at least when I last used it.

[Download speed WAY too slow.]

Limit your mirrors to Fidcal's site and Southquarter in TDM_mirrors, and check the option not to update the list within the updater.

[Animated grass - test map]

This one runs pretty well even on my laptop

[Animated grass - test map]

I know I'm late to the party, but this is fantastic Also very useful in terms of scale for nature / outdoor sections.

[Let's improve our level design skills]

The thing I'm watching right now is about how we should actually learn and understand key concepts of interior design. Very useful to me so far, definitely need to watch again and take notes.

 

 

The concept Melan speaks of is kinda there too, it's a breakdown of how we see and navigate space, what works and what doesn't.

[Let's improve our level design skills]

There's a good tip for mappers, modelers as well as character designers – never go into details too early. I wish I used that advice more. Somewhere in the Darkmod wiki there's a tutorial on blocking out, but if that concept is not much familiar to you, try this presentation from Bioware on Iterative level design:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WClXGuRQCjA&t=11m9s

 

Most studios do something like this nowadays, they just have their own nomenclature for things. Whether you like their games or not, it's still worth watching.

[My first map – questions & work in progress]

STiFU's being way too modest Your insight was invaluable during the Cabal project and beyond. Sure it was so long ago, and I remember it was such a mess at some point... Kind of still is. Every mission feels like a different world. But hey, those were fun times

 

 

Interesting to see a reunion like that.
I sometimes wonder at people thinking T2, TDS, and TDM mappers are such different communities, although I get out of touch with the other forums too just because it takes time to follow everything. Well the Thief editing forums anyway ... I'm still a moderator over on TTLG so follow the other forums.

But generally I've always seen us as one big extended family sharing variations of the same basic passion. Then again I still play T2 & TDS FMs along with TDM ones, so I was never drawing lines between them to begin with (though I gather some people do play only one type.) I still have some T2 WIPs that I wouldn't mind finishing up, although now my time is so stretched I have to focus to release anything at all; one has to prioritize something; and for me that something would be flexibility in mapping out my vision, which I think TDM wins. But I still understand & respect that other mappers have other priorities in sticking with their preferred editors, including even familiarity and the learning curve to learn something new.

Edit. Sorry, that's kind of a derail, lol. I'm just interested when people switch editors sometimes, but no need to derail the thread about it. :angel:

 

No need to apologize, these are really good points, Dema. Like I'm at the point in my life where I feel like I have a finite time (and aging body). I have my main job (translations, sitting at the computer all day), my other sort of new job (photography, running around with tons of equipment, and then sitting at the computer all day), and I still like playing new games, learning about design. And, I really want to create "something in 3d" this year (and that means you know what).

 

I'd been carefully considering my next move since December last year. My first choice was obviously TDS, but even thinking about the amount of quirks and workarounds I'd have to deal with made me feel tired. It's been so many years, and until there's someone who completely rewrites the shaders for DX 9 and makes tools for material libraries and models... Even as I write that, I see how crazy and desperate it sounds. It's way too much to ask for, even from most dedicated community members. So my next idea was to limit myself even further: make environment art for UDK or UE4. At some point I even thought about a UT3 map. But then just making something pretty for a Youtube showreel didn't seem meaningful to me. I don't have much experience in making multiplayer maps either. Making use of all that stealth game theory made more sense, so I asked myself, what about Darkmod? I spent a week or two lurking here, reading wiki and thinking if I can commit to this, and finally make something good. My first impression was, that at least DR and TDM will work like intended most of the time, and that means a lot when you come from T3Ed world.

 

You are right about switching the editors though. Maybe it's an age thing, but rewiring your brain and changing your long-time habits is hard. It took me 2-3 days to get used to controls and get beyond childish resistance of my brain, aka "why this isn't unreal". I think it got easier when it ocurred to me what could be the general idea behind the type of controls DR has. IMO there are two goals here. One is to make sure you won't accidentally select and move something. I already developed a good habit of having my left hand over the Esc key very time I switch from perspective to 2D views or vice versa. It makes sense. The other goal is to make blocking out BSP and measurements as fast as possible. Rulers with numbers, so I don't have to count grid squares to measure things is a tremendous help. Also the resizing system, incredibly fast and efficient when you get used to it. Flexibility in how you can design things, from the good old "room-by-room" method to more professional iterative design. Floors without walls in big empty place to figure out gameplay, lightning, loot and enemy placement first. Quick and flexible BSP tools which can be used to create mockups of modular tilemeshes, so you can figure out the grid and spatial relations and model those later in Maya or 3ds.

 

To sum it up, I realized I need all of the above, because the day is only 24 hours long and I'm so not in my twenties anymore. And again, I really want to make something. It feels as compelling as other things I do in real life. Which kinda shows how big nerd I am, but oh well .

[Let's improve our level design skills]

I am not completely finished with all three documents, but it is definitely very interesting to read. I already saw my own biggest flaw in the first couple of sentences. I tend to build realistically, which is in many cases not very interesting to sneak through. Well, I will see that I get a couple of the game design lessons into my WIP and maybe finally finish a mission that I think is worth playing

 

You shouldn't be too hard on yourself in that regard, only the best level designers are experts in marrying gameplay-driven spaces with a sense of real place (like Arkane guys). It seems like these two are almost polar opposites. But, if the games I played are any indication (and the history of games in general), you really don't need your spaces to be realistic at all to be perceived as functional or to belong to a certain class of locations.

 

In games I played in my childhood, the concept was to evoke an idea of a place, rather than trying to reconstruct it (technology and performance reasons, obviously). "Forests" in games like Dungeon Master II or Lands of Lore looked more like garden mazes, but it didn't prevent players from getting the idea: "ok, I'm in the forest now". Games like Ishar 1-3 perfected the formula, but those are still garden mazes, just with better set dressing.

 

KOTOR games are another good example IMO. Most of the mission maps are basically multiple "kill rooms" with lockers strung by sets of corridors, just with a different theme in mind: jungle, spaceship, temple etc. Even Bioshock games mentioned in the second presentation are pretty poor in terms of architecture. They hardly feel like real place in terms of space, which is mostly rooms and long blocky corridors. Still, these games have a strong theme and keep players busy with those small stories. This wacky underwater world is quite lively, even if the layout is pretty much artificial (Bio:Infinite might have gone too far in that regard, IMO it feels like a giant museum tour).

 

Even now you don't need much to evoke a concept of a place and make it somewhat believable. Drangleic Castle in Dark Souls II is a huge maze that doesn't make much sense in terms of architecture (like it has a throne room and a dungeon, but not much else), but it's a great space for gameplay and exploration.

 

I've never done this myself yet, but for my first little TDM mission I want to start with totally artificial spaces. Problems to solve. Floors with spatial puzzles and stealth gameplay. Then I'll try to to make the whole thing look like a place. Bioshock-level blockiness wil be more than fine for the first attempt I already have a theme which should be pretty flexible for that. T3Ed was never fit for iterative design, but DR is a great tool for fast whiteboxing and assessing measurements. I can make a giant room, focus just on how the floor should look like, add z-movement options, lights, enemies, loot, iterate as much as I need. Then I'll worry about translating that into a something more plausible

[Acrobat Reader RdrCEF]

That's a great find Destined & Jim. Just switched to Xchange Viewer, I really forgot how it feels like to open and browse PDFs so quickly

[My first map – questions & work in progress]

Thanks STiFU, long time no see I must say, I received a more than a warm welcome here, and I hope I'll be able to contribute

[Let's improve our level design skills]

You might not agree with me, but in fan missions, for both Thief series and Darkmod, level design is often the weakest part. We mostly want to tell a story, build cool or "realistic" locations, and we think about populating these locations as we go. Not that I'm a good level designer, but all these years I've been collecting tutorials, books, and GDC PowerPoint presentations about level design, and I want to share a few of those with you. I paid for the books, so that would be illegal to share, but stuff from GDC is publicly available.

 

Let's start with something absolutely essential. I believe every Thief/Darkmod level designer should be familiar with this:

Randy Smith - Level building and stealth gameplay

 

Now, this is a good piece on environmental storytelling. If you want to cut back on lengthy readables in your levels and leave more to players' interpretation, this is a must-read too:

Harvey Smith & Mattias Worch – What Happened Here

 

This is more like an annex to the first presentation, a bit more theory on how Thief systems work:

Randy Smith - Design fundamentals of stealth gameplay in Thief

 

 

I have more of those, but they're more about systems, or they focus on other games and level design in general. IMO those three documents are a solid piece of knowledge that should help you think more consciously about your levels and the whole design phase. Also, if you have any documents like that, especially on stealth games, and you can share it, it would be great

[Wishlist For Darkradiant]

One minor thing that came to my mind yesterday while adding properties and links to entities: when you add those, you always have to click the OK button. It would be faster, if we could also double-click them.

[My first map – questions & work in progress]

I installed the reference gfx drivers from the laptop support page, and the performance is much better now. Multiple AIs and lights etc. Looks like nvidia is still doing that thing, where newest drivers are slowing down older hardware.

[My first map – questions & work in progress]

This is my laptop's system specs, it's the MSI GP60 2OD:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/va7u4hbf5axagky/LAPTOPPC.txt?dl=1

 

I think the overall problem might be with how OpenGL works with this dual gfx card setup. At first, DarkMod crashed a minute or two after I started a mission, because it used the Intel Graphics as primary card instead of nvidia. Changing driver options helped. I'll see what happens when I install the default gfx card drivers for that nvidia card.

[My first map – questions & work in progress]

The three questions: yes, yes, and I'm not sure what you mean. If that's power management mode in nvidia drivers, then no, the "maximum performance" setting makes the fans go like in a blow dryer, even when I'm just in the menu (although the descrption warned me that would be so). I will run the CPUz and post results when I get back home.

 

My desktop on the other hand, can't be used as benchmarking device now. It runs missions like Volta in over 60 fps in 1440p with 4x AA:

 

Which is bloody awesome, but I'd like my mission to be playable for as many people as possible

[My first map – questions & work in progress]

Looks like the reason of performance drops on my laptor is mostly AI presence. More than 2 guards in my view and the framerate starts to drop, even without any lights. Btw. is there any property that makes entities not rendered in-game? Something like bOutofWorld in TDS. Sometimes I want to hide some of the AIs or meshes to check a few other things, without deleting them.

[Better compression for TDM:]

Good idea. Also, I just read that 5400 rpm drives are only much slower than 7200s when reading multiple files, so that's definitely the case here. IMO SSD drivers shouldn't be a requirement to run TDM smoothly I'd rather teach myself, and all the mappers, how to stay below one minute of initial loading time, like in Volta or Gatehouse. I'm not ruling out loading zones as well, they make much more sense in TDM than in Deadly Shadows.

[Better compression for TDM:]

Two more missions:

 

penny3 Normal mode - 6:53!!!
penny3 Store mode - 2:49

gatehouse normal - 0:59
gatehouse Store mode - 0:31

 

Now, either my laptop's hardware isn't properly supported in TDM, or there's something very wrong here. Almost 7 minutes of loading time is just abysmal. Surely that has something to do with slower HDD (5400 vs desktop's 7200 rpm), but I think the difference won't be huge. I can see by the HDD light that it isn't used much while loading. Maybe it's a slow bus between mobo and the gpu, or gpu and vram. That said, I can comfortably play Dishonored 1 on max settings, and Thief Reboot with most options on high.

 

I will test those on my desktop too. I just upgraded to from GTX 650Ti to GTX 1060, so I got a huge boost in GPU power. But I kind of doubt it will change much in TDM though.

 

Edit: Actually, it seems it may have something to do with laptop's weird dual gfx card thing. Even though I've already chosen the nvidia card as preferred gpu in the driver menu, setting the com_videoRAM in .cfg to 2048 actually made loading this slow. Setting it back to 128 reduced PD3 loading time to ~3 minutes. The weird thing is, it only happens in some missions.

[Better compression for TDM:]

I did only two tests, but the results so far are inconclusive. Volta usually needs 51-55 seconds on my laptop, Volta in uncompressed (Store mode) zip, around the same time. But with CoO: Behind Closed Doors, the difference was substantial. The compressed version takes whopping 2:29 to load. But, in a Store mode the loading time is reduced to 1:45 to (still very long, but hey). Wondering what that may be, I checked the content of both pk4s. Seems like there's a huge difference in the number of files. Volta has like less than 300 files, BCD has over 900 (!). That definitely prolongs the decompression time.

[Better compression for TDM:]

Yes, it can uncompress easily, it's the compression that takes a long time and it's not too efficient.

 

I can only guess that TDM loads the whole FM into memory, that's why it takes so long at first. Level streaming was only available around first Gears of War and UE3, so we can't rely on anything like that. Loading zones, anyone?