Oktokolo
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Posts
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Posts posted by Oktokolo
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1 hour ago, thebigh said:
It boils down to "Neither I nor anybody else wants to play missions that aren't absolutely top-tier" and I think that's both discouraging to novice mappers (or those who specialise in small-to-medium maps), and not even true.
Sounds like an exaggeration to me.
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On 9/22/2022 at 5:21 PM, datiswous said:
That makes no sense. If you are limited on time go for a smaller mission with a very structured plot and objectives. Iris is very loose, so let's say you play it a couple of hours spread during a week, you often might not know what you're doing or don't get sucked in enough because of lack of time.
Of course it makes sense: Iris is the best and longest mission available. So it should last a while. It also is the best content available - so no fear of missing out. If you ony have limited time, skip the slow buildup and dive right into the best stuff. That way, you get the best use out of that limited playtime.
31 minutes ago, thebigh said:Making a map, even a small and simple one, is a lot of work and I don't think it's fair to deride even less highly rated levels as "amateurish" or "mediocre". Mappers are creating something and giving it away for free, and that kind of talk seems disrespectful to me.
The wording isn't diplomatic - but the intent obviously isn't to deride anything or anyone. Just a player who wants to dive right into the best content available - and that is okay.
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If you are really limited on time, go for Iris first. It is the best. And because it also is the longest, you don't need to decide what to play next.
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1 hour ago, demagogue said:
It's interesting that you can do (what seem to us like) really high level things, like this procedural art, chess engines, and probably music and other forms soon, with an earthworm sized brain; but really (what seem to us like) simple things, like ordering lunch at a fast food joint or other open ended things, run into the AI Complete problem, i.e., you can't even do the most simple operation unless you have full human-level cognition and world knowledge.
Simple things for AI are the things that we already know how to implement. When someone discovers a new design that allows to model a currently impossible task, that task suddenly becomes "simple" for AI.
Of course, if we wait till hardware with the capacity of the human brain becomes available, we probably could just train it as long as we train a human child and it would become a general AI even with our current level of knowledge.But for each task, that AI already has achieved superhuman levels in, the brain of the best humans at that task obviously are the same ~8 orders of magnitudes less neuron-efficient than the earthworm AI beating them. So there seems to be a shitton of optimization potential when not modeling the human brain, but the resulting abilities.
What really holds AI back isn't the hardware anymore. It is the lack of knowledge about good AI designs, training methods and how to debug that beasts. Also, a lot of the human brain mass probably is just really lossy memory. We already have pretty good non-neuron-based replacements for that. So even for recreating the brain the actual distance could be a few orders of magnitude less than it seems...
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32 minutes ago, geegee said:
I don't think so.
Well, some people actually doing research in that field are. And that is what ultimately will lead to further improvements in that fields.
There surely will be a working model of a whole human brain including its peripherals (the "body") in the future.The idea of how a transistor could work is a hundred years old by now. We can run The Dark Mod on a personal computer smaller than a cubic meter now. And there still is plenty of time to research the inner workings of the human brain before our sun dies (although it i would guess it needing hundreds of years - not billions)...
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12 hours ago, geegee said:
But what is that skill? How can I know what it is, since it's beyond me? I can deconstruct the map and recreate the gameplay along different lines, throwing in glitz like volumetric lights and so on, and come up with something unspeakable. By proceeding that way, no matter what kind of glitz I throw in, what kind of diversions and filler, what kind of joy all this copy/pasting gives me, I'm not matching the "skill" that went into making Glenham.
Artificial "intelligence" isn't there yet. But "But what is that skill?" - how exacly our senses, thinking, intuition and creativity works - is exactly, what the AI research at its core actually is about. There might be an AI that your descendants can feed their favorite missions and it will give them a new mission that is comletely different but "feels" the same and "bears the mark" of the author of the original missions. Maybe that AI will have to be created by a "general" AI, because there just isn't enough original training material for training such an AI with any method known today and you can't just substitute stealth immersive sim missions with maps of other game genres (i would even go so far that you can't really use Dishonored missions as training material for TDM missions - despite both being stealth immersive sim games).
AI will get there though - if we or our descendants don't nuke eachother into oblivion first.
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10 hours ago, jaxa said:
Speaking of which, we could use better storage technology. Consumer holographic drives with hundreds of terabytes, please.
Nah, just make sure, that the AI image generation process is deterministic (the actual AI should already be). Then you only need to store the AI, maybe a seed value for the deterministic pseudo random number generator used to get more variation, and your image description text. That way, one Gigabyte of disk space gives you exabytes of AI image storage capacity.
Storing images like that also means, that there finally isn't a distinction between vector and bitmap images anymore. Both would be generated by an AI and are therefore sorta infinitely scalable (but ultimately the contained detail in the resulting image keeps being limited by the size of the AI of course).The only catch is, that you can't store non-AI-generated images that way - yet (surely there also could be an AI that takes an image and generates a detailed description from it, but some human-visible details would likely be lost in the process).
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As a non-artist, i definitely apreciate that AI will give people like me access to individualized non-rights-encumbered art/assets - be it for personal enjoyment or use in free or commercial products.
This should also enable indie game devs to finally abandon "pixel art" for good...
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23 hours ago, Obsttorte said:
I see two possible solutions:
- Avoid any animations like that as idle animations
- Introduce an additional check to explicitely exclude the possibility of the ai to see anything behind itself (behind in respective to its bodies orientation).
3. Fix the animation.
This isn't a bug in the engine. It is acting like intended. The issue is with an animation, that didn't take player expectaions into account.4. Close as "intended behavior".
It probably happened to me too. But normally the AI gets blackjacked before it happens. And it is part of "getting good" to learn to anticipate odd behavior of AI like sudden changes of direction, looking behind, relighting light switches, reacting to open doors, sometimes leaning so far forward, that it can actually see behind itself... -
20 hours ago, Obsttorte said:
That point is valid if the clock is really working against you, like if you have to do something within a certain amount of time or else game over. If the amount of time it takes you to get to a certain point decides on how the story evolves from there, then this could actually add a nice touch to a mission, if executed properly.
Sure, if it isn't forcing me to hurry, it is fine. I actually just hate timer-based objective fails.
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One thing i really like about TDM is the timelessness of the world. I start a TDM mission and have all the time of the world to explore it and try different things. I don't have to rush anything.
I like environment changes triggered by my actions. But gaming against a clock was never fun for me.
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You don't need to prevent the player from entering the vent with a shouldered body. Just provide a "safe room" perfect for storing bodies right before the vent. Players normally unshoulder bodies as soon as they feel safe enough to do so. They really don't like to creep around unable to maneuver properly.
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16 minutes ago, freyk said:
Nice app, but are those mods not installable through the internal mission downloader?
They are mods, not missions. They modify the core game, so you can enjoy their benefits in all missions you play.
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On 7/21/2022 at 10:14 AM, wesp5 said:
But I would really like to fix the issue that candles you just extinguished by frobing get taken automatically, because the main idea behind the direct frobing was to remove possible sounds when picking them up.
The clunkyness of picking up stuff has been fixed in TDM version 2.04. I confirmed empirically, that even a clunky player can pick up stuff without making a sound since then.
On 7/21/2022 at 2:59 PM, wesp5 said:Speaking of details though, to not get any silly connotations, shouldn't we rename it to Snuff?
How about extinguish?
One of the clunkier words. But it is a common one and not overloaded with different meanings or connotations. -
On 7/15/2022 at 2:04 PM, Filizitas said:
I am working on some new assets and looks, here is another preview.
So that is how liminal space looks like in the Thief universe.
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14 minutes ago, wesp5 said:
We already discussed this here, would this be possible? How do we highlight a bright flame? Because this could also fix all the oil lamps that are not extinguishable by the patch right now, although it probably would mean to rewrite everything!
Highlighting is solved by enabling the black frob outline. I play with it since months and it works fine even in darker areas.
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3 hours ago, Wellingtoncrab said:
@Obsttorte @Oktokoloare these comments a response to mine? Because they don’t really seem to be.
Sorry, misunderstood your first comment to be a response to me. I get, that my comment makes no sense if it wasn't. Just ignore it then.
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34 minutes ago, Wellingtoncrab said:
It’s discouraging to read both a developer and a player saying we give no consideration to certain design elements of our missions in the context of a conversation that seems to be about overwriting some of those intentions anyway.
If it makes you feel better: I still am of the opinion, that Iris is the best TDM mission created so far. Also i would have expected winning that contest to somehow protect against such ultra-fast discouragement a bit...
But yes - ignoring some outliers and special missions - actual balancing of tools is basically absent in TDM.
And that is okay as long as noobs still get enough tools on easy to somehow make it through the mission (which seems to normally be the case). I am in the "play it as you want" camp btw and rarely use tools anyways - so too much tools are just translating to more loot for Definitelynotgarret to pawn after the mission... -
14 minutes ago, Dragofer said:
This is something of a bold assumption.
As someone, who played most missions at least trice: Nope, not bold at all.
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1 hour ago, snatcher said:
I read carefully all posts in this topic. Everything there is to be said has been said, in my opinion. My goal wasn't to bump this topic to resume the discussion but to make a particular point a few years later: what if?
You heared the people in charge: It is set in stone and can't ever be changed because old missions would become too easy and some people would end missions with 15 instead of 10 water arrows.
I would even go so far as to suggest making torches hand extinguischable. And i am pretty sure i could even do it myself in meat space by suffocating the flame with a damp leather hood. Like with the oil lamps, you would have to step into the bright light to do extinguish them (but dousing a torch probably takes more time).
Just adding to the pile of everything for the record (and maybe for @wesp5). Also definitely not starting a discussion about necromancy...
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2 hours ago, New Horizon said:
Yeah, it's not a rigid type of thing. There is a cone that extends outward from the back of the AI. It fans out wide enough to offer some allowance for error, which makes it possible to come from the side somewhat.
The cone thing explains why it works better the more sloppy you do it. If you actually try to hit the head, you miss all the time but if you miss the head, you get a higher chance of hitting the cone as it covers more volume further away. The system seems to actively discourage actually hitting the head.
I suggest turning that cone into a sphere fully containing the head - so blackjacking just works.
Wouldn't care that much from what direction the jack comes. If the AI doesn't see it coming, it should be fair game. -
1 hour ago, chakkman said:
Here it is:
Well, MS paint should actually be barely "good enough" for just cropping and resizing screenshots.
GIMP actually is absurdly slow to start. Seriously, it should just start fast and do the font loading and shit in the background - like every single IDE does. Imagine JetBrains' Raider or Microsoft's Visual Studio only letting you start coding after the full code base has been reindexed at every start...I also get that staying on Windows 7 forevor thing - i myself delayed the upgrade until the last security update. He probably isn't as paranoid as me, so may very well stay on windows 7 till his favorite games stop supporting it.
Not sure if really a Microsoft fanboy or just baiting with that "premium MS software" stuff though...GIMP actually is absurdly slow to start. Seriously, it should just start fast and do the font loading and shit in the background - like every single IDE does. Imagine JetBrains' Raider or Microsoft's Visual Studio only letting you start coding after the full code base has been reindexed at every start...
Looks to me like an old dog trying hard to not learn any new tricks (including a sense for whether you currently trigger the wrong people in a forum - the mods). While i sense some trolling in that thread - he basically just delivered what has been asked for. Just one of the less abbrasive discussions on the Internet.
51 minutes ago, Dragofer said:The guy's ended up on at least 10 ignore lists and in his final days was posting advice on how to avoid getting raped. It was high time for him to go.
So he posted about politics or other taboos outside the Off-Topic board? Well RIP then. He should have known better.
Respect for achieving that ignore count though. I hadn't the impression that this community is easy on the trigger. But i also don't know how many ignore me...
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14 minutes ago, chakkman said:
Did you read his lament about Microsoft Paint? That was borderline trolling. Well, actually not really borderline. Pure trolling.
Nope. Probably missed that - got a link or has it been deleted too?
2 minutes ago, STiFU said:The most critical stuff has already been deleted, as we don't want to foster a harmful environment in these forums. We want to be as welcoming to newcomers as possible.
I have been playing 7d2d the last few days, so i might indeed have missed the trolling before all evidence has been burned.
Just remmeber a sortof passive-aggressive tone where i was like "ugh, that's not the way to ask when you actually want people to cooperate". Didn't see actual trolling or insults though (also am of the opinion, that a reasonable amount of trolling is okay, so maybe i just don't remember).
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On 7/3/2022 at 6:33 PM, chakkman said:
I usually aim for the head, as is written in the tutorial in the wiki. I actually thought you'd be too far away when you swung, but, it worked OK.
Yeah, the key is to be right at the distance where you would think "nah, thats too far" and aiming just low enough that you get anxious about not hitting the head. After a hundred missions or so it is muscle memory and most often just works. Sometimes it will still fail - but the obligatory quicksave will be muscle memory too, so you can just quickload and repeat.
And you can ignore all the complex alert state stuff - just quickload when someone draws a weapon and blackjack lured guards on their way back to their post or route, not when they are coming towards you (listen for their barks as there seems to be no visual indication for the pre-weapon-draw knockout immunity of helmeted guards).
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Why there should be restrictions on quicksaves
in The Dark Mod
Posted
Save restrictions aren't new. Not so long ago almost every console port had them.
Players of games that are designed with a lot of dying in mind, seem to be fine with save restrictions of any kind.
But in Kingdom Come Delivery, the save restrictions are commonly modded away.
There are games which are about doing the same area over and over again until you manage to beat it. The experience of overcomming frustration is what the players of such games are after. The more annoying it was to beat the boss, the more satisfying it is to finally have beaten it. Obviously, save restrictions can add a lot of frustration - and therefore are an integral part of such games.
Arcades and soulslikes normally profit from save restrictions, while immersive sims, basebuilders and sandbox games normally don't.