Springheel
-
Posts
37683 -
Joined
-
Last visited
-
Days Won
357
Posts posted by Springheel
-
-
46 minutes ago, Anderson said:
That's why homosexuality criminalization laws eventually became obsolete and at the end they were repealed when society wouldn't resist it too much anymore. It's an evolutionary process. Something changes, disappears, other things remain the same.
It's odd to me that you would, in an attempt to justify hate speech laws, compare them to a law which we now recognize to have been unjust and without valid justification.
Laws against homosexuality are exactly the kind of laws states should not be allowed to make...ones where the state cannot justify making the behaviour illegal beyond vague statements about protecting society from "offensive" behaviour. In that way, they are precisely like hate speech laws.
And while hate speech laws may eventually be recognized as obsolete and be repealed in the same way homosexuality was decriminalized, that's not an argument in their favour. If a law can't be justified, it shouldn't exist. Period.
-
1
-
-
3 hours ago, Destined said:
This is a really good and difficult question. I consider myself to be a rather rational person and as such, I would consider even books like "Mein Kampf" as source material. I was taught in school that the book, while present in almost all households at the time, was actually read by only a very small portion of the populace. If more people had read it and understood what was proposed in the book, Hitler might have had far fewer followers than he actually had.
Another irony...while hate speech advocates list Nazis as one of their primary enemies, and point to Nazi Germany as what can happen if hate speech is allowed, the Nazi party was actually one of the most enthusiastic supporters of banning "problematic" speech...as all power-hungry proto-dictatorships are.
3 hours ago, Destined said:As for a test whether a speech triggers violence, I have none. The correlation would be the only suggestion I have, but this has two important faults: it can only be done in hindsight, so it is too late anyway and you cannot transfer this to other speeches and, as discussed at length here, a speech alone is never the only reason for violence.
You can never verify that the violence would have occured without the speech.
This is exactly why preventing violence is not a sufficient argument for banning "hate speech".
QuoteA thorough, good faith human analysis by independent decision making bodies can correctly identify hate speech
If you can't see the problem with making laws that require "good faith human analysis", where two reasonable people can't even agree on what is or is not against the law, I don't know what else to say. If we could rely on good faith, we wouldn't need laws at all.
-
1
-
-
18 minutes ago, Anderson said:
This approach is not sufficient for hate speech because the latter is applied to current struggles and controversies. and not to extinct conflicts of the past. So the way to balance free speech and freedom of religion, conscience and thought is to ban extremist derivative offshoots from religious, philosophical works. The Bible and Quran written thousands of years ago simply do not produce the same social resonance as modern interpretations of them.
Oh please. You're going to try and argue that the Quran and Bible get a pass because they aren't "current"?? They're among the most widely read books in the world.
"The Holy Bible is the most read book in the world. In the past 50 years, the Bible has sold over 3.9 billion copies. "
Coming in at #3 in the world, "The Quran is believed to be the words straight from God, Allah. It is the book that the Muslims use as a guide full of religious texts of how they should live their lives. ... The Quran is the most read book in the world by the Islamic community. "
https://capitalizemytitle.com/what-are-the-most-read-books-in-the-world-of-all-time/
-
Quote
As someone mentioned before in this thread: the freedom of one person ends, where the freedom of another starts.
Ok, great. We're generally in agreement on that point. Books like the Quran and the Bible can tell their followers to do violent things, and some of their followers DO violent things, but we don't try to make the books illegal. Instead, we condemn the violence and we try to use reason to counter the violent messages.
Why is that approach not also sufficient for "hate speech"?
-
1
-
-
5 minutes ago, Anderson said:
That's a leading, suggestive question.
And? This isn't a courtroom, it's a conversation.
When someone's argument suggests a conclusion, a suggestive question is a good way to find out whether the person has considered and supports that conclusion. -
Quote
It may be that he would have done that at some point anyway, but the speech seems to have given him confirmation that what he is doing was right. I agree that the speech in itself was not the sole reason, but it contributed and may have given the final impulse he needed.
It's ironic that this is the same argument used by those who blame Islam for terrorist attacks like 9/11. "His religion told him that what he was doing was right. The Quran's command to "make war on the unbelievers" was not the sole reason, but it contributed and may have given the final impulse he needed."
I guess, by extension, you would be supportive of making that religion illegal?
QuoteA dictionary definition doesn't answer the original question, which was "What does it protect against that isn't already covered by other laws?"
-
41 minutes ago, Anderson said:
The easiest thing to do is to look for what hate speech is
It's apparently not easy at all. I've been trying to get a straight answer to "what hate speech is" for two pages now.
Until we establish a clear definition of what hate speech laws are supposed to do, we can't begin to have a discussion about whether they are successful or not. But for some reason, hate speech proponents seem determined to avoid answering the question.
41 minutes ago, Anderson said:Cherry picking hate speech laws does not address the challenges posed by free speech abuse. Ultimately time will show what is the outcome.
That is absolutely NOT the way you establish laws in a just society. You don't just let the state make laws without explanation and hope they eventually work out...what could be more fascist than that? If the state doesn't have a good justification for making something illegal, then it should not be illegal.
-
2
-
-
Quote
Ok let me approach this from a different angle. There's ill will euphemisms thrown around, fake bot accounts, provocateurs that cultivate and spread the angst. Usually to the benefit of some political establishments and activists. Not all of that is direct incitement of violence. And working class people don't have the time to do mental exercises and balance this against other opinions. They pick the most sparkling, most loud, most angry views. It's enough to keep throwing fuel at this partisan stand-off for activists and politicians to reap the profits.
As society evolves - new categories of population groups can fall under the protection of hate speech laws - new LGBTQ+ groups, new religions etc. Laws are always late for changes in society. That's why hate speech laws are needed
I find it strange how hard it is to get a coherent answer to a simple question, given the sheer volume being written in response to it. Instead I'm getting lots of examples of speech that people don't like. And some of the examples that are presented as "obvious" reasons why we need hate speech laws seem to me to be obvious reasons why they're a bad idea.
The closest things I could find as potential answers were: "The point of hate speech is to create a proper atmosphere where everyone can be encouraged to speak out" and to protect society against "ill will euphemisms thrown around, fake bot accounts, provocateurs that cultivate and spread the angst." Is that what you think hate speech laws are supposed to do? I think it's pretty clear that hate speech laws don't do any of those things, and aren't even designed to do so, but that would at least give us somewhere to begin a discussion.
We can't even begin to talk about whether hate speech laws are important or effective or hypocritical until we have a clear answer to the question of what they are intended to do.
QuoteThe point is that the violence was not directly incited. The fearmongering and badmouthing led to increased aggression and violence against certain groups (in this case immigrants). That this violence was tolerated is, of course, another point, but the aggression itself was caused by speeches that were allowed.
How was it established that the increased aggression was "caused by speeches" as opposed to other factors?
I've already pointed out how that exact same argument is used all the time to ban things: "Violent video games may not directly incite school shootings. But the bloodlust created by these violent, murderous games leads to increased aggression and violence in our youth, and school shootings have gone up ever since these violent games were released. Therefore violent video games should be illegal." If you're going to accept that argument for hate speech laws, you'd have to accept it for violent video games/movies, role-playing games, most forms of music, comic books, etc.
-
1
-
-
3 hours ago, Destined said:
I think this question was answered with Zerg Rush's post/video: Violently persecuting minorities after being incited by politicians or toher people through scaremongering. As discussed largely in this thread, the definition of "hate speech" is very vague, but it cannot be denied that there is rheotric that can encite the masses to violence against (mainly minority) people.
I don't want to get into the specifics of any particular politician or political party, as that video does, since I'm not familiar enough with the politics of Italy.
As for directly inciting violence, I've already pointed out that this is already illegal in North America. So is actual violence.
So again, I'm still left without an answer to the question "What does it protect against that isn't already covered by other laws?" -
Quote
20 hours ago, Springheel said:Again, this is incredibly vague. Protection from what?
Protection from the majority.
The original question was " What does it protect against that isn't already covered by other laws?"
This response still doesn't provide an answer. Protection from the majority doing what??
-
Quote
The argument is that hate speech offers unprecedented protection for historically persecuted groups and individuals.
Again, this is incredibly vague. Protection from what?
-
2 hours ago, Anderson said:
But again, IMHO the idea just needs to be more precise, better tuned, jurisprudence needs uniformity. Hate speech needs to be weight against other rights. It's too restrictive to see hate speech just as another gimmick that makes the state more authoritarian.
So we agree that it's not precise. What's your argument for having it at all? What does it protect against that isn't already covered by other laws?
2 hours ago, Anderson said:"Personal attacks" in this case serve as a paraphrasing of hate speech. What we mean is to protect a person or group from personal attacks that instigate violence.
Directly inciting violence is already against the law. You don't need hate speech laws for that.
2 hours ago, Anderson said:Well, yeah, generally there is more peace in countries that have and enforce hate speech laws, compared to the homicide rate in the US.
If you're trying to draw a direct casual relationship between hate speech laws and homicide, you're going to have to do better than that. I can show a correlation between absolute government censorship and low homicide rates...but I don't think anyone would accept that as a justification for government censorship.
2 hours ago, Anderson said:I am arguing against absolute freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is a fundamental right, correct. But it should not be absolute. That would disregard other rights that the US Constitution does not protect such as the right to privacy. Freedom of speech is not so important as to render it absolute. There simply need to be reasonable guarantees for it to work.
I haven't seen anyone here (or anywhere else) arguing for absolute freedom of speech, so let's put that straw man to bed. If you agree that freedom of speech is a fundamental right, then it follows that any government wanting to restrict it must have a good reason for doing so. So let's start there. Why do societies need hate speech laws?
-
"They are speeches by politicians who point out certain groups as 'enemy of the country' and cause of all the problems of the people. This is what I deserve, that is how it also began in the 1930s in Germany with the Jews and I think the final consequences have been quite clear."
There's lots to unpack here, including the same slippery slope fallacy I mentioned earlier, but I think talking about politicians is too much of a niche case. That isn't the primary purpose or target of hate speech laws, so let's set that aside.QuoteJust because an activity is subjective, doesn't mean it's poorly regulated. It all comes down to the civil servant who shall execute and interpret it.
Saying it "comes down to the civil servant" is the DEFINITION of poorly regulated. In a just society, laws should be objective and easily understandable...if you can't know what behaviour is going to be criminal until after you do it, that's an obvious problem.
QuoteWhy shouldn't personal attacks be illegal?
Because power corrupts, and the more power the state has over its citizens, the worse off those citizens become. I don't think anyone who knows the first thing about psychology or human history could argue that point. When the state is looking for more power over its citizens, it should be required to justify why it needs that power, not just take it unless someone can argue otherwise.
-
2
-
1
-
-
52 minutes ago, Zerg Rush said:
I don't agree with this observacion, do not confuse the terms. It is not about a violent game or that a piece of Black Metal or also a church choir sing songs about suffering and death, It is about a politician, broadcast by the main media, using violent speeches against homosexual groups, uncomfortable foreigners and journalists.
How do you define "violent speeches"? Is he actually calling for violence? If so, then yes, that shouldn't be allowed and most countries I'm familiar with (which admittedly is a small number) already have laws against that.
However, I've heard all kinds of speeches labelled "violent". Including, literally, not saying anything at all ("silence is violence" is a common slogan among activists in North America who apparently don't understand what a false dilemma fallacy is).
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
-
On 7/9/2021 at 5:03 PM, Zerg Rush said:
Violent speech can cause violent acts, depends who use the violent speech.
This is the exact same argument that is always used by those who want to control what other people are allowed to do. "It will lead to violence!" They used it against rock music, against comic books, against violent movies, against Dungeons and Dragons, against violent video games.
Not only that, but the term "violent speech" moves the goalposts. There are already laws in most countries that restrict people from calling for actual violence, so if that were the real concern, there would be no need for hate speech laws.
-
1
-
3
-
1
-
-
20 hours ago, Anderson said:
Same about defamation, libel laws. But they still exist even if there's a degree of subjectivity to it all. It's not about a mathematically 100% precise definition. Such things do not exist and are impossible. Perfect laws don't exist neither. It's about the principle of tolerance.
It depends on the country, obviously, but in North America you don't get sent to prison for defamation or libel...it just means the injured party can sue you, and they actually have to demonstrate damages in many cases. Hate speech can result in jail time and does not have to involve someone bringing a suit against you. They're not comparable.
And while perfect laws don't exist, that's not a valid reason to support bad ones.
20 hours ago, Anderson said:Free speech activists advocacy groups usually don't fight for the right thing. What they really want is to say anything while never being held responsible for it. This has nothing in common with constructive dialogue. It's just vanity and pride. Forgetting that we all stand upon the shoulders of giants.
I tend to ignore it when people tell me what the other side "really wants", since it usually turns out to be inaccurate.
20 hours ago, Anderson said:Always be mindful that hate speech is political correctness as it is attempted to be lumped into by politicians. Hate speech is a much more narrow, precise concept.
I have no idea what you are trying to say there. If you think there is a coherent "precise" definition of hate speech, I'd love to hear it.
20 hours ago, Anderson said:What I'm saying is - telling the truth doesn't mean that one has to personally attack someone. It can be done without that.
Yes, personal attacks are impolite and generally counter-productive. But that doesn't mean they should be illegal.
20 hours ago, Anderson said:So this is why to me it's obvious that the current trend to promote hate speech laws is a good thing.
I don't know what the "why" is. There are already separate laws (again, in NA, ymmv) against making death threats, inciting violence, or lying about a private citizen in order to damage their reputation/livelihood. What are "hate speech" laws attempting to protect society from that isn't already covered by these things?
-
1
-
-
- Popular Post
- Popular Post
I've never heard a definition of "hate speech" that isn't completely subjective and destined to be applied inconsistently.
-
2
-
4
-
1
-
Making character models is the (relatively) easy part of the process. Weighting verts to the existing skeleton is the hard part (assuming you want the character to move).
-
3
-
-
There are assets that are specifically excluded from the release package because they aren't/weren't in a state suitable for release. Sometimes those things get fixed, sometimes they get removed from SVN, and there are probably other times where neither happens. I thought that wall that referred to a non-existent folder would be an example of the the latter, since it's been missing textures for at least a decade, but I just checked and it is indeed included in the core assets for some reason.
-
The dev build probably includes things that are specifically excluded in the release build packaging process, which might explain things.
-
textures/darkmod/gleeful is not an official folder. Where did that "justice fence" even come from? It shouldn't be in the core assets.
-
Until someone else can confirm that they're seeing the same thing, there's no way to rule out missing assets on your end.
-
3 hours ago, roygato said:
Another thing you may or may not be aware of, the guard's headwear impacts their vision. A guard with a hood or an eyepatch will have a harder time catching stuff in their peripheral vision, as opposed to a guard without. I only learned of this via a mapping tutorial; don't think it's mentioned anywhere, couldn't even find anything about it on the wiki. But since it was Springheel who said it, it must be true.
It's mentioned in the first mission, A New Job, in a voice-over when you see the guard with the eye-patch. I think it's one of the random tooltips in the first 2 missions as well.
-
1
-
-
Quote
I guess this story confirms the idea that rarely used stuff breaks without anyone noticing it sooner or later
Yes, it seems so. Thanks for fixing it.
Taliban are amassing for war
in Off-Topic
Posted
If that work had been done, and if it did show that certain types of hate speech can cause violence, then we would at least have something to discuss. But that work hasn't been done, and there are too many examples of "hate speech" that have no rational connection to violence whatsoever (even examples posted in this very thread) to make me think that is a likely conclusion.
But, even if it were, it still wouldn't immediately follow that hate speech should be banned. We already know that religions can cause violence (at least according to the people committing it in the name of that religion) but because it is only a small percentage of the population committing that violence, we don't ban religions or religious texts. When Democrats demonize Republicans and then someone shoots a bunch of Republicans at a baseball game, we don't ban harsh political criticism. Nathaniel White said Robocop had inspired him to kill one of his victims. We don't ban violent movies. There was plenty of violence at the BLM protests last summer, but no one dreamed of banning the anti-police rhetoric, even after two police officers were murdered in their car. I could go on.