obscurus

I don't think it necessarily stretches believability that much, after all Ninjas trained extensively in a wide range of combat techniques, and were able to master the use of a ridiculous number of different weapons, but their objective on a mission was usually to get so close to their target unseen that they would not need to fight - a good ninja was rarely seen and never caught, but if they did get caught it would take more than a few highly trained samurai to kill them, which is why they had the reputation (probably a bit exagerated) that they did (ninjas also carried shorter swords than Samurai, and held them in way that it was difficult for their opponent to tell just how long the sword was, and were masters of close quarter fighting, while samurai needed a bit of room, so a thief might have the upper hand in a tight corridor against one guard, but will be better off running away in open spaces). So I can see it as quite reasonable that a thief would practice combat skills as well as lockpicking etc, as it is always better to be prepared for something unexpected going wrong, and having to fight at least well enough that you can bugger off down a sewer with a few wounds. But I suppose in a gameplay situation, it can be better to force the player down a certain path. I find it quite tempting to just kill everyone on Thief missions rather than ghost them, purely because I have loads of arrows and a dagger, and it is all too easy to use them. I don't usually give into that temptation, but if I had no weapons the temptation would be removed, so I do concede that in allowing the player to use weapons effectively, you will have to adjust other areas of gameplay and level design to make combat undesirable.

I guess what I am getting at is, OK you are aiming for a purist thief who doesn't train for combat (which I think is good), but I also think there should be the flexibility to have the player be an assassin (like Riddick in Pitch Black) - meaner than a simple thief, more like a mediaeval special ops guy. I am thinking of amaking a game where you can customise your character a bit before you start - you can choose whether you are a weedy little thief who will throw sand in your eyes and run away if caught, or a highly trained master of combat who (ab)uses his stealth and combat skills to commit a few crimes to pay a few bills. Or anywhere in between. My goal is to give the player choices on how to approach missions, and they will have to suffer the consequences of their choices - a big strong assassin type will not be able to hide as well as the thiefy type, will make a bit more noise, and will be too big to access some parts of the level, but will be able to take care of himself better in combat, while the thief will be able to hide and sneak much more effectively, and can get into some tight spaces no one else can get to, but will be absolutely stuffed if he gets cornered (he might have a flashbomb or salt to throw in a guards eyes though, so he can run away). Thus there will be different rewards for different choices - some loot will require brute force to get, some will require agility and cunning. I don't know how close you guys will come to what I am aiming for, but hopefully there will be a decent base I can build on, anyway, keep up the fantastic work, I am looking forward to the toolset being released!

One thing I really liked about TDS was how you could mug people by pulling out a weapon and threatening them - really funny to watch them running shitscared away (not exactly stealthy, but certainly fun...) :lol:

I am not an animator, so tell me if this is not going to work, but is it possible to make a generic animation of the players hands swinging a sword/stick etc, then bind other objects into the players grip, that way, you can put any weapon in them players hands they want - sword, umbrella, stick whatever, you just have to model a new weapon that way. Presumably you will be making animations for guards wielding swords etc, can you extract the relevant animation data and use it for player, or am I being too hopeful? I mean Garret had a proper sword in T1/T2, and while it isn't realistic for a thief to carry one, it does NOT mean that the thief has not been trained in its use, not by a long shot. Remember Garret was trained by Keepers, and part of that training was combat (not just how to avoid it). Many people learn martial arts in the hope that they may never have to use them... I am a diehard realism fanatic as you have probably all guessed by now, but I also beleieve in maximising flexibility, so FM authors aren't restricted to one-dimensional gameplay ideas or rehashing stuff... But I know this is a vast amount of work and time involved, so I know there will be limitations that I will have to get over.. ...or learn how to code and animate :lol:

Well, I don't think the idea of moving the whole screen around is such a good idea, I mean, I don't know about you, I have had no training in using broad swords etc, but I have picked them up and swung them around (at a local mediaeval club exhibition), and while it was a bit awkward, it wasn't that hard to do (mind you, I am reasonably well built and strong, so it might have been a fair bit harder fo someone half my weight). The real problem with an untrained swordsman is that they will likely make lots of mistakes that leave them open to a competent swordsman getting a swing in while your guard is down. So if it is possible to code and animate, it would be better to make it so that if you pick up a broadsword or hammer, you will sing it a bit slower than the guards will, and you will not be able to block attacks as well. If you can simulate the inertia of a sword in a way that is playable and realistic, all the better. Oh, real swords also vibrate a LOT when you hit them against another sword, and if you aren't prepared for it, you might drop the sword when you block or are blocked... maybe you can use a sword, but if the guard blocks you, or you try blocking the guard, the sword falls out of your hands...

Well, obviously you have to draw the line somewhere, but then again in a lot of games, the inhabitants seem to live in a world without toilets. Thief was always good with that - plenty of toilets there, and I guess mediaeval people would be more likely to empty a chamber pot out the window... but so many other games lack that sort of thing. For me it can really break the mood when you start to notice the absence of things that subconciously you expect to be there... I don't think having a bladder meter would add anything, but having guards stop to relieve themselves every now and then could be amusing, and could add something to gameplay (but it might be better as a scripted thing at a particular point in a level). A drunk guard having to empty his bladder every few minutes maybe :lol: I thought about having to eat to restore health - say after a period of time you lose a health bar or two, and you have to pinch some food and eat it to get your health back up to full, but that is probably going overboard, as i have to sleep, eat etc at some point anyway, I dont need my thief character to do so as well. But as far as visibility (and audibility etc) physics goes, it is an essential feature of stealth gameplay, and the more realisticly it is implemented, the better IMO

I would understand if no one could be bothered doing the extra work for something that doesn't add much directly to gameplay, but being able to do stupid silly things with objects lying around really does add to the immersion within the game. Actually, it seems to be becoming more of a problem in games - the more graphically realistic games get, the more people notice things that are inconsisted with their reality. Peoples brains can cope with wierd rules when the game is simple and crude, but when it looks visually real, but behaves unlike reality, many people find it very disconcerting. I find T1 much more immersive than T3, I think because the level of visual realism is better matched to gameplay realism. So doom 3 renders more visually realistic environments, you need to ramp up gameplay realism to match, or it stuffs in-game immersion... Does that make sense to you?

For some of us, challenging is fun. I find surprises fun, things that make you think on the run. I think if sillhouettes would be an immense imrovement in gameplay if it can be implemented without too much of a performance hit. One of the reasons i liked thief so much when it came out was the fact that it was much more complex and realistic (in some ways at least) than other games at the time. It wasn't just point and shoot, you had to think about what you were doing and plan ahead. Now that technology is getting better at approximating reality, I see no reason not to take things to the next level. Sure, pumping guards full of arrows and blackjacking people left right and centre is fun, but after a while the novelty wears off and you need something with a bit more complexity to keep the illusion going (at least I do. I honestly don't understand why some people would find more realsim tedious, for me it makes things more interesting and FUN

I was wondering what people thought about being able to pick up dropped swords, hammers, etc and using them as weapons? Even if the thief does not normally carry a sword, I think it would be nice if could pick up weapons that have been dropped or are otherwise lying around, for circumstances where there is no choice but to fight. .. Or weapons that wear out after a period of use, and you have to steal/find/buy a new one?

Actually, now that I think about it, you could always sneak up behind someone and use chloroform or similar to render someone unconcious, use of poisons and chemicals is probably the only way you could have a truly stealthy KO, but you would have to be careful to lower the body to the ground, as a falling body makes a pretty loud and distinctive sound, even from a couple of feet onto carpet...

Actually, as far as magic arrows go, I always liked the vine arrows in T2 - how about vine arrows?

For me personally, more realism = more fun, and i want a thief type game that comes as close as possible to actually being in a mansion stealin' stuff (without the risk of actually going to jail). A real thief will usually avoid killing or even touching a guard, preferring to slip by un-noticed. It is extremely difficult to render someone dead or unconscious without attracting attention - even if you sever the spinal cord at the base of the skull, the body will twitch and spasm violoently for potentially minutes as random nerve pulses travel through the body. People being choked thrash around violently, and will probably make a lot of noise. Even blackjacking is pretty noisy (hit someone on the head even lightly and it makes quite an audible sound), and there is a fairly high chance that you will just hurt them and make you victim cry out in pain before you get another whack in... a pure thieving expereience should involve no murder or violent assault unless the thief is cornered. Flashbombs, throwing sand in the guards eyes and other distractions are the preferred method of escape once detected. Granted, the Thief series was always pretty flexible as far as murder and assault went, and if that is your cup of tea, you should have the option, but i think there should be some realistic penalties for doing so.

What about releasing small animals to distract guards (this is an old Ninja trick, so it is based in reality)? Also I would like it if AI responded to animals being disturbed - say you've just mantled over a wall, only to disturb some pigeons... Oh shit, did the guard notice? Maybe the guard gets a bit suspicious, but after a while thinks nothing of it, and goes back to his patrol or whatever. I like surprises and unpredictable things that force you to react on the fly. One of the things that limits the replay value of most FPS games is that enemies are usually in the same spot every time you play the game, which makes it way too predictable. And while arrows were cool enough in thief, they are totally unrealistic for a thief that travels light and leaves no trace, other than the absence of a few valuable items, to give away his presence (A bow and arrow would be realistic for an assassin, though). Go the grappling hook I say, sure it may be difficult to implement realisticly, but it is a hell of a lot more realistic than rope arrow which couldn't possibly support the weight of even a tiny thief (unless it is made of some high tech carbon nanotube fibre). And don't say it is a "magic" rope arrow, that is a cop out. Anyway I think the best option is for FM authors to give players a choice of weapons and inventory at the start of each mission, or the option to buy gear with loot, so that people who would rather have a grappling hook or climbing gloves can do so, people who like arrows can do that too. It is very obvioous that some people like to play thief without being detected at all, while others like to empty their quiver of every arrow by the end of the mission, and I guess there should be the option to cater for differences in thieving styles... However, if you can't shoot your way through a map because you have no arrows, it will force you to be more creative, which I like...

While I am not keen on time limited missions, I do like the idea of Day/Night cycles, where, if say you start a mission at midnight, you have 5 - 6 hours before dawn, then things get more difficult as the shadows get brighter and fewer. But not necessarily impossible. Actually, I wouldn't mind a daylight mission, provided you did have a few shadowy sections (say you start outside a cathedral, then you end up in some dank catacombs, or like the cragscleft mine mission in T1, where it is day outside, but dark in the mines...

That being said, ever since I upgraded my computer, I have been unable to install Thief Gold, and Thief 2 won't run, so if someone want's to remake them with a new and improved engine, I am all for it - I miss the rooftop level in T2, that was the best...

While having various factions and groups certainly adds depth to gameplay, why does the DarkMod have to copy Thief so blatantly? Especially since the T3 editor has been released. Personally I am more interested in a generic thief-style engine that lets FM authors create their own settings, whether that is a thief like mediaeval world, a futuristic scif world, modern day big city, feudal Japan or ancient Rome - get the mechanics of the gameplay going, basic characters that can be easily reskinned by FM authors (I don't have 3DsMax, nor can I afford it, so that kind of modelling is out of the question for me unless someone has any suggestions on budget modelling software!). So if you want to make a mission that sticks closely to the Thief series, with Hammerites, Pagans, Keepers etc, go for it, but also try to think outside the square and create something new and a bit different. You don't HAVE to copy Thief exactly!

I want to set up a loot system that gives diminishing returns on loot - the more loot you stuff into your bag, the more likely you are to be noticed, and the slower and noisier you will be. That way the player has to make a choice between getting enough loot to make the mission worthwhile financially, and getting greedy and getting chaught. If you think about crime statistics, most burglaries involve small items that are easisly fenced - jewelery, cash, small electrical goods, cds, dvds and so on, and real thieves don't carry lots of gear around (certainly not a quiver full of sundry magical arrows, a bow, numerous flash bombs, potions etc), that way they can hide in plain sight just as easily as in the shadows. Modern thieves carry things like screwdrivers, lockpicks, maybe a crowbar, pliars and wire cutters (usually a multitool or pocket knife with all of thes attatchments is enough) . they often dress as tradesmen so their toolkit doesn't seem odd. I think random unpredictable things like floorboards creaking unexpectedly add immensly to gameplay, to me having a visual clue is almost cheating - I want the thief to have to adapt to events outside their control. Like I said, I like a challenge, and this might not be for everyone... My point is, I want to play missions where the deciding factor is the skill and cunning of the player in as realistic a world as current computers can create, not the arsenal he/she carries - if you want that play Doom

In regards to a loot system, you could also simply limit loot to stuff that is a bit more sensible - don't have lots of large loot items - maybe have an inventory system where you have a set amount of space for loot, and you have to make a decision on what types of loot you want to pick up. As in TDS, you could then fence loot and by equipment, upgrades etc (but the fences and stores in TDS could have been implemented better, IMO). If doom 3 allows for much larger level sizes than TDS, then you should, at least on some suitable maps, have a large city level with lots of fences, shops, and of course, masions to rob. This probably wont appeal to loot completists - those who absolutely have to get 100% of the loot, but if done right, it could spice up gameplay a little. If you like you missions faily linear and goal oreiented, I can see why you might not like this idea, and it is heading into RPG territory I know. Some people see Thief as a glorified game of Pacman, I am not one of them, and prefer a bit more depth and intricacy

I can see the point that many people would find a lot of the more realistic elements I'm talking about frustrating or tedious, but I think that comes down to level design as much as anything. For example, the thief could mask their sound on stone or metal by throwing down their cloak and walkning over it slowly (a heavy enough cloak made of felt or similar material will do this), while making wooden floors more of a challenge (carpeted or not). For example, you can be quieter on wooden floors by walking very slowly, or sticking to the walls where there is usually less movement in the floorboards. Maybe this could be implemented as a difficulty option. Personally, I would not find things like this frustrating, as I guess I have played thief too many times on max difficulty settings to find typical stealth games as challenging. I guess there are two factors for me: 1, realism helps enhance the illusion that you are actually in a castle pilfering some lords goodies, and 2, realism ups the level of challenge closer to what a real thief in the real world would experience. It is too easy to go through a thief level and render every guard and AI unconsious or dead (unless you have the no knockout rules etc enabled). I also want to get away from magical elements to differentiate my game ideas from thief. Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of a game set in ancient rome or babylon, something a bit different than the usual thief setting. Maybe have a game where you can choose between playing a thief or an assassin, and having differnt characteristics etc.... Another thing that bugs me is poor level design, where you are blocked from exploring an area for no good reason (obviously, computer power and level building time will restrict the area that can be explored, but invisible barriers are not cool, nor are walls that should be climbable but aren't). Has anyone else been puzzled by the rooftop apartment in the Auldale level in TDS? How the f*** did anyone get furniture in there, when there are no entrances except by climbing?

Hi, I am new to this so my apologoes if any of this has already been covered... I have been tinkering with various unreal engine editing projects for a while now, and while I consider myself a pretty competent level designer, coding, mods and animation are black arts to me, and the dark mod looks like just the engine I need to get my ideas off the ground. I have been working on ideas for a stealth type game ever since Thief first came out, and I am a big fan of all three. Not a thief clone, rather a realistic stealth game in a vaugely mediaeval setting... However, there are a number of things that have always bugged me, particluarly as they make the game less challenging than it could be: 1. Garret seems to be able to carry an infinite amount of loot without the weight slowing him down, or all the trinkets clattering around. For example, on a number of levels, Garret can somehow stuff all manner of paintings, gold plates, coins etc without breaking a sweat or attracting the attention of guards as he walks around. Would it be possible to give the thief a realistic limitation on the weight, size and quantity of loot he/she can carry at any one time, as well as alerting AI if there are lots of jingling coins etc? 2. Creaky floorboards. I don't know about you, but the carpet in my house does nothing to facilitate stealth due to the f**king floorboards creaking (one damned good thief if they can walk around my house without waking me up!)- how hard would it be to create hotspots where floorboards creak to boost the challenge a bit? 3. While the weapons in Thief are quite fun, they are not all that realistic - a thief might carry a dagger to get himself out of trouble, and something like a blackjack, a grappling hook and rope maybe, but only an assasin would carry a bow (I saw a post discussing the realism of Thief's bow and various arrows, so I wont go on about it...) The climbing gloves in TDS were actually quite good and fairly realistic - Ninjas in feudal Japan used gloves with metal spikes to aid in climbing stone walls, but rope arrows are pretty daft, there is no way you can expect an arrow embedded in wood to bear the weight of a thief, even a light one, which brings me to my next point... 4. In the thief series, Garret is generally considered to be quite a featherweight - a bit on the weedy side. Yet he has no trouble picking up a fully armoured guard and dumping the body. Realisticly, guards are usually selected for their occupation on the basis of being large and imposing (think of a typical nightclub bouncer), so lets say your typical guard, unarmoured weighs about 100 kilograms (thats 220 pounds for those who haven't caught up to metric yet Add 40 kgs (88 pounds) of armour and that is one hell of a lot of weight to move - very few people could carry a dead weight of 140 kgs very far, it would be more realistic that the thief drags the guard on the ground, or alternatively, lifting a heavy guard causes health damage. Unless Garret is more like Vin Diesel's character Riddick in Pitch Black, then maybe... Other than that, things I am hopeful of seeing in this mod are stuff like realistic time limitations (day/night cycles, ie get your thievin'done before dawn or else), AI responding to silhouettes in doorways, SWIMABLE water, and generally realistic options... I realise the original thief games were not all about realism, and that some compromises between realism and gameplay are inevitable, but then again I am going for something a bit different, and something that is about five times as hard as Thief on the highest difficulty setting. Any thoughts or opinions about this? How capable is the D3 engine of doing what I want? Could anyone be bothered doing the coding etc required?