chakkman

Almost sounds like it in the training level. I mean, i don't really know if it's him, but, surely resembles the Thief soundtrack. And soaking arrows!

Lol. That training level is kind of the antithesis to what games are like nowadays. "I will not hold you hand, try to think." That already deserves a kudos. I never played Ultima Underworld, but, this looks cool. Not quite sure i like the graphical style though, already had objections against it with the screenshots they showed some years ago.

Already having a blast with part 1, i'm in the prison level now. If part 2 is even better, then i'll have to buy it... when it goes on a sale.

Well, that just proves what i wrote, doesn't it? Why does all moving AI enter the same room at some time? That makes no sense at all. Imagine you want your mansion to be guarded. Would you place and order your guards to guard the same areas? The answer is obvious i would think. It's one of those things i just don't get in some missions. Guarding the same areas, while leaving other areas unguarded at the same time makes no sense at all. I even had it in several missions that there are even 3 or 4 guards in the same room at the same time. Imagine how unguarded the rest of the mansion is at that time. I also had it that guards walk around in all kind of weird places, which made it almost impossible to hide bodies. In conclusion, it's not only more logical that guards have a set path, it also makes the gameplay more enjoyable for me, especially when you're a knockout player.

Actually, some of them act quite unpredictably. Like, taking a nap, then waking up, and continuing their guard routine, while others just go on sleeping. Anyway, i don't even want to imagine how ultra hardcore difficult the game would get if the AI would even act more unpredictable. There's LOADS of them in the levels. It's already difficult enough that way. I must admit that i'm rather for predictable guard routes in general, though. 1. it's unrealistic that guards don't keep to their guard routes. After all, it's the specific guard's duty to cover a certain route. It's not realistic that, like in some TDM missions, 3 or 4 guards show up in the same room, leaving other areas completely unguarded. Secondly, and more relevant, it makes life extremely hard for the player, if the AI is too unpredictable, and it makes the gameplay less enjoyable, especially when you're a knockout player, who relies on thinning out certain areas, carrying and hiding the bodies in certain places, and, if one AI after the other comes into the room (again, it happens in some TDM missions), it can be a huge PITA.

Even though i would not totally agree with that (after all, most of the pure stealth based components already existed in the original Thief games, and also exist in other games), i think Styx is a different game. 3rd person vs 1st person, fast paced gameplay vs. slow paced gameplay, loads of AI's very few AI's, cover based gameplay vs. non-cover based gameplay, etc. If then, you could compare it with games like Deus Ex or Splinte Cell, but, even those are pretty different.

Yep. The "obvious" way rather sends you into areas with loads of guards. The alternative routes are always the more worthwile ones. I find nothing wrong with the AI either. It's good.

I'm playing Master of Shadows since yesterday (had it lurking in my Steam games for quite a while now...), and, i must say that i'm pretty impressed. I really like it, and, it kind of defeats my statement that there are no good games coming out these days anymore. Especially like the control, the gameplay is great too (TBH, i'm also a sucker for that fast paced stealth stuff), and, it more or less has everything i'd expect from such a game as well. The cut scenes sometimes show that the budget wasn't too high, but, hey, that doesn't matter at all to me. Nice game. I think what i like the most is that it felt "right" right from the start. No overwhelming menus, and gazillions of messages on the screen, no game menus which feel like they were vastly designed for eye candy, not for usability, and, really easy to get into gameplay, which is shown logically in the tutorial.

True. Most of the time, gadgets are just what they are… gadgets. You don't HAVE to use them, and it is totally up to you whether or not you use them or not. Even though i'd agree that, in nowadays games, they shower you with gadget you can even upgrade, so it doesn't get boring for the gadgeteers. Kind of the typical quantity => quality thing so popular these days.

We need moar stealth games. Shame that the nowadays' games audience is so action, and "quick success" oriented.

I totally hated the beginning of Mankind Divided. I guess, like all games these days, that it gets better later. As you say, the UI is completely overwhelming, and made me wonder where to look, and with what i can actually interact. I disliked the "do-gooder" Jensen in the intro as well. I mean, seriously, especially in a role play game where you can actually evolve into a badass as well, that's not very smart of the developers. But, you know, like with everything they try to force political stuff on the player as well, like they do in every Hollywood movie these days too.

You assume that i have any idea what a spawnarg, or AI definition files are. Also, some input about the mod, and areas where it could be improved, or a discussion if other people think the same or not should also be fine, right?

Well, that's the thing. You try to fix something which in YOUR opinion is broken, but, considering the popularity of the original games, might not be broken at all. Sure, I'd fine tune it a bit, but, i wouldn't revolutionize it in the way it is done in TDM. Anyway, i see where this is going, and how the (several) other threads on the topic were going, so, i'll leave it at that. Won't change, because is believed it is not worth changing. Understand. Shame for me, but, hey, that's how it is.

It's not so much about that, rather that i consider the blackjacking superior in the Thief's. As i mentioned elsewhere, i think that TDM is superior to the Thief's in many ways. The blackjacking, not so, in my opinion. And that's a shame, because i'm not a ghoster, but rather try to weed out the patrols. Another issue i ALWAYS had with many missions are the guard's patrol paths. It absolutely makes no sense that there are patrols, which have such a complex guard path, that there are 3 or 4 guards in the same room at the same time (which kind of defeats patrol paths, doesn't it? Why would there be 3 or 4 guards in one room, while anything else is left unguarded?). But, that's another story.

As i mentioned, the distance shown in AluminiumHaste's videos is about the most far you can get away without blakjacking the air, so, why would you be as far away as that, when you want to safely do a knockout, which is the point here? No, not at all. As i mentioned, the point is to learn to safely blackjack someone. Obviously, it is not forgiving enough, because it is much, MUCH harder to safely blackjack someone than in the original Thief's. Actually, even after 40 played missions, i didn't learn. Must be because i suck so hard that i never had an issue with blackjacking in the original Thief's.

I think it highly depends how close you are to the guards. Try getting closer, you definitely have to aim much lower. Also makes sense when you take a look at Springheels sketch of the "hit area" or however to call it. When you are as far aways as shown in AluminiumHaste's videos, you already stand a chance to miss, because you don't hit at all. Take the one at 1:34, for example. I would say that is the most further you can be away for a knockout, otherwise you will just hit the air. Usually, i'm at least half the way more close to a guard, and have to aim much lower.

I actually found the post with the sketch i mentioned, by Springheel: http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/16147-blackjacking-hit-detection/?p=343108 I don't know how accurate that is, but... that area where a blackjack hit succeeds doesn't exactly look large, does it? I didn't remember how many discussion on the same subject there already were, and that i was involved in most of those.

Fair enough, and that's surely nothing related to blackjacking per se (even though i still wonder why they are supposed to hear you, when you walk over a stone surface, at least on the default dificulty, it should be rather resembling the old Thief's. You can always set it harder in the settings then, for the elite thieves). My other niggles with it stand though.

I'd counter that the Thief games were considered very hard in difficulty by the press, back in the days. And, yes, maybe it was a bit too easy to blackjack in the original Thief's. But, i don't feel like that is a reason to make it very hard instead. I can only repeat what i feel like is wrong with it: - You don't have to aim for the head, but for the back. - The blackjacking distance could be increased a bit. - Guards are too sensitive/cautious. I don't know how it is supposed to be possible to blackjack a patrolling guard, when they already notice you walking. Again, in the original Thief's, you could run towards them. Feel free to disagree. That'y my observation, comparing the original games to what is supposed to be a game which resembles them as close as possible. It does, in many regards, not so much in the blackjacking, IMO. @AluminumHaste: "Don't get too close, don't aim too high". Enough said? That confirms all that i have written above. If you get even nearer, you have to aim even lower. Someone posted a sketch which showed the movement of the blackjack very well, and, the way it behaves, and the hitbox in TDM (which isn't very realistic, after all, in the real world, the upper body, as well as the shoulder and arm are a bit more flexible, and can account for nearer/further distance). I think all that it would take is to make it a bit more forgiving, and a bit more generous. IMO. YMMV. Just my 2c. Etc. If you feel like it's great, hey, fine. I disagree, if that's fine as well. P.S.: Check these out as well: http://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?app=core&module=search&section=search&do=search&fromsearch=1 I'm sure one of those includes the sketches i was talking about. I'll see if i can find it. Heh, i just noticed that i posted exactly the same things i post here in this thread: http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/17373-blackjacking-what-the-hell/?p=377528

That doesn't work at all. The only thing remotely reliable (maybe works 30% of cases) seemed to aim for the neck, or lower. And, from a gameplay perspective, and for new players, that's quite unintuitive, when you actually want to hit the head, you'll want to aim for the head. P.S.: Check this video: He ALWAYS aims for the neck or lower (actually rather for the back than the neck). That's how it's done in TDM (well, WHEN it works, and you have the right distance, don't alert the guard by even walking up to him, instead of crawling (again, in Thief you could run towards the guards...).

You definitely can't aim for the head to knock someone out, as one would assume. For the butt might be a bit exaggerated, but, you get the picture. I think someone depicted the hitbox once, and, you'll have to be much closer to the guards to knock them out than in the original games, and, you have to aim low, obviously also because the hitbox is so small. At least i have no other explanation why it is so vastly different to the original Thief's.

I think, when the guards had their weapons drawn, and searched for you, it was also not possible to knock them out in the original Thief's. As you say though, it makes no sense, so, it shouldn't be something worthy to be taken over. The state of alert is irrelevant to the ability of being knocked out. As it quite severely affects gameplay, i'm not sure if it even should be considered to be changed, though. But, i also had it many, many times that blackjacking didn't work, and i didn't even know why, because the guards didn't actually already drew their weapons. As i mentioned earlier, i also think the blackjacking distance is too short as well though. And, i also don't like that you have to aim for the butt to hit the back of the head. Bottom line, it's really damn hard to blackjack in TDM, while it was a breeze in any of the original Thief's.

Not to blow the thread but... i really wished the blackjack would get an overwork. The way it is now, it is a hit and miss for me. I maybe have a success quote with the blackjack of 30%, max. And that is after watching the blackjack tutorials, which have been posted here once, and after years of playing this mod. Here are some issues i have with it: The blackjack distance is too narrow. You have to stand too close to the guards to be able to hit them. Next thing, the aiming is really weird. I know the point was to give a realistic swing, but, when you have to aim for the lower back of a guard, to knock him, there's surely something wrong with the gameplay mechanic in that regard. You also have to avoid to even to walk on most surfaces, let alone run, to prevent the guards from turning around, or being so alert that the blackjack fails. Why is the alert state even relevant for a knockout? Makes no sense frankly. In the original Thiefs, the distance for a successful knockout could be much further, guards didn't even get alerted so that you couldn't knock them out when you ran on to them with the blackjack, and the aiming wasn't very relevant either. I can understand why The Dark Mod wants to improve on a couple of things in that regard, and, maybe the blackjacking in the original Thiefs was a bit too easy, but... as i mentioned, even with tutorials and training, i maybe have a success rate of 30% if not lower, which is a bit frustrating. And it surely will be a hell of a lot more frustrating for new players. I'd really rework the blackjacking.

That's good to know. I never found all the health potions in the training mission.

I would bet that it's one of those AV suites. Known to notoriously cause problems in Windows 10.