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The problem that I see is that Thief requires a lot more of hearing on the player part, than most other games. I don't know if we should really add to that by giving shadow information this way. Also it doesn't really feel natural to me, to have an auditive feedback on a visual experience. Just an idea. I think from the coding point of view it doesn't really matter wether we increase the sound or the colour of the lightgem. So we could test it as soon as we have the functionality that triggers the lightvalue. I can't really say that I can judge this just on the description. I would need to see how it feels when playing. As of being innovative. Of course. But we should also be aware that not every cool idea is good in gameplay. When I try to counter your arguments it's not because I want strictly to turn down your ideas, but we have to take a look at it from all angles. And I have no experience with gamedesign from the developers side. So I can only try to imagine how it feels when I would play it, as long as we have no prototype.

We could such a thing for AI awareness, but I don't htink it really works for the lightgem. The sound would increase the tension and is most likely not associated with the light/shadows but the overall danger. This would mean that, if the player is in an empty, but well lit, room the sound would indicate danger even though there is none. I think this wouldn't work well.

Good job, LB! You must have a microphone/recorder set-up of some sort. That's cool I'm not sure if these are tests, or finals... but if I may?, some constructive feedback real quick... * The popping sound at the beginning of 'thief gulp test' (which I assume is a cork being popped off a flask?) sounds kind've cartoony. I like the sipping sound. The gulping sound at the end doesn't sound realistic. * The more prevalent cicada (or whatever) sound on top of all the other sounds in the 'grasshopper' clip has a pretty repetitive frequency. If we were to use this in-game, I think it would be cool to just have the grasshoppers in the background be the general atmosphere, and then randomly add a few cicada clickson top... and then remove them for a while, and then add them back in for a short duration, etc., in a random fashion. But then again, maybe that's not how nature works. But then again, also, a game player would pick up on the repetition of it and hear that it's a loop eventually. The better you can hide the fact that it's a loop, the better. * The running horse could be usable, but depending on how it's used or what the horse is running on, could benefit by having some underlying bass tone stomps added for each step, thus making the horse seem like it has more mass. * The 'door open' sound is pretty creepy. I like it This creepy one should probably be used sparingly if we're ever going to make a campaign. I don't think I'd want to hear that loud of a sound every time a door opens; well, especially since we're a sneaky thief. We should make a few door sounds to choose from, some more subtle sounding. I'm sure you already had thought of most/all this stuff. Just wanted to mention. Thanks for your hard work so far!! I really like the 'Factory' sounds too! Good job.

I think there is potential in the book idea, because we could change the illustrations for each page. It also allows for more 'illustration' style pictures on the left. Here's a quick example. I'd prefer using in-game art though. Basically, my take on this approach is that the player is looking at a storybook detailing the adventures he is about to have. We should showcase scenes that give the most 'thief' bang for the buck, picking scenes that really shout "This is Thief!" The painting I picked doesn't really do that...it's just a placeholder. But things like showing the thief about to bj a guard...showing him pressed into a shadow, showing some of the marvelous settings that get our hearts beating, etc. Every time the page is turned, we can have a new menu on the left and a new illustration on the right.

Hiya! Hmm... not sure what's up with my personal site. If you just click on it it should open up in your default player tho.

Ahhh, that would be a very nice touch. Brings the player even further into the world.

I made this logo right fast, I'm still leaning more towards Pakman's as far as style goes but I figured I'd throw this mockup up to see what everyone thinks... (Edited pic down below) I'm gonna try and find a good schematic blueprint to overlay on it...and another thing we could do. Since the frontend is 3D we could make the background a texture and throw a flickering candlelight effect on it, make it look like the player is staring at a set of plans set on a desk.

First of all, those aren't soundeffects, but ambient sounds. Think like this: If the sound is generated by something the player does, ie shoots an arrow, walks around, pushes a button, then it's a soundeffect. If on the other hand, the sound is put in the level by the level-designer to bring some athmosphere to the level, ie crickets, the ocean, factory sounds.. Background sounds if you want, then it's an ambient sound. Second of all, those are some really great sounds! I love the factory. Right on! Third of all, great work.. Fourth of all, I'm gonna start doing an ambient design doc soon. It should hopefully clear up a few things.

Yes, I really love the book idea. I'm not sure we should display the Thief in action since we're a first person perspective game. It may lead the player on a bit in that respect. We do have that lovely Thief model... , but we'll get to see it on other Thieves thank goodness.

nice to meet everyone in here one main thing about orchestrating music that films do... they normally dont score a film until they have ruff cuts done and the composer/artist can work around that. it should not happen where we make sounds and the programmers of the game work around the sound. we are there to bring the world "alive" not to make the people that create the world fall into the guidelines of the score. sure its ok to get general guidelines of the music we want, but nothing should be set in stone, until ruff demos can be played, or story boards are drawn so all the sound people can huddle together for the ambient track, efx and voices. just something to think about peace LB home studio consists of: Hardware Yamaha S03 music synth Boss DR-670 drum machine Peavy RQ 200 6 channel mixer samson 8 channel head phone amp PreSonus "smart" compressor Art Tube Amp Rode NT1-A Condensor mic (on loan to someone at the moment) Shure BG 2.1 stage mic M-audio Delta 44 M-audio 24/96 Numark Turntable DJ mixer Teac 6 Disc cd player 2 stand alone burners for on the fly burning Software Acid Pro 4 Wavelab 4 Waves Bundle Gold efx pluggins and too many samples to name

We could possibly have reflections in mirrors, windows or other reflective surfaces where the player could look into and see his- or her-self as the thief character.

I imagine it was a solution to the practical problem of the player clipping a wall while picking if the locks were to one side.

I think that bit of jewelry is perfect. My vote to base it on that. As opposed to T2's square block thing, that doesn't look like much of anything?The light gem is a tool for the player. It's to simulate being able to look at your own body in real life and seeing how much darkness you're in. Although if we have body awareness, it could negate the need for such a gem.

I don't think we should be thinking of the lightgem as something our Thief actually carries. He wouldn't need a piece of equipment to tell him whether he was in shadows or not. It's purely a tool for the player. So far, I like Pakmmanen's version the best. It doesn't look like it would have to take up much room, either. The only concern would be making sure you can see the arm that is pointing in the direction you are facing. Reading a letter might be difficult at that size, but we could always use the Red=North method used for the compass in T1/2.

umm, that would be a bit back to front goldfish guy. A change of perspective would allow the player to see the direction they are headed aswell as where they have been. I'd still be interested to hearr what people think about dropping the gem for a mechanical measuring device. Nothing wrong with a gem. but it would be different, cool and thiefy not to.

I think the disadvantage of a round lightgem is, that I'd cover more of the screen, than an oblong gem. my suggestion: we let the player choose, if he wants to have the compass permanently on or not. I belive that would be quite simple - it would be just a check box in the options menu.

Saturday, August 14, 2004 id Software Keynote Comments 14:16 PST | RosOne QuakeCon would not be the same without John Carmack's traditional speak to the fans. This year he couldn't attend because yesterday his wife Anna Kang gave birth to their first child Ryan. Instead of him standing on the stage and talking to the crowd a DVD was recorded and played back during the event. Many exciting topics were covered such as the next generation hardware, id's next engine, Quake 4 and more. After that a Q&A session was held with some guys from id Software. Here are some details: The SDK should be released a few weeks after the patch comes out. Pre-production of the DOOM movie has begun in Easter Europe. The next game will be a FPS, mainly a single player game. Nothing more has been revealed yet. The Mac version of DOOM 3 still requires some work. No release date yet. There is no publisher set currently. The Linux server is done. It will be released soon. More keynote coverage can be found here at AMDZone and at HomeLAN Fed.

hey, really REALLY nice work on the mod so far, I can't wait to see how this is gonna be. I've mapped for halflife a lot and I've mapped just a bit for doom3. (although doom3 = ez to use as well) If there is going to be a map like cradle, I would love to have the opportunity to make the map. I am good with lighting and ambient sounds, and I think I would be able to create a great atmosphere that would startle the player. However I havent mapped for doom3 in about a month because the mapping program has so many errors and glitches in it. So this leads me to my second question. Are you guys waiting for the Doom3 SDK before going wild? I know many other mods are and I am personally excited about their "improved" editor they will be releasing with it. Thanks

Wow, a man of many talents. Coming up with concepts for furniture by doing some research into the relevent time periods is something that needs to be done. I like the museum stand for that reason. The concept art for T3 involved a lot of dynamic sceans and good use of colour, that gave designers a lot to work from. In comparison, that shot of the room with the light on the wall is really bland, in terms of colours, archetecture, and overall feel. When the concept art was drawn with the camera at a really dramatic angle, you might think "well, the camera angle itself isnt' saying much - your viewpoint moves around all the time in the game", but what you really should be getting out of the image, is looking at it at a whole, and it gives you a feeling, and then you say "well, how can I somehow translate that feeling into the game, and give the player that feeling when they play the game?" I think that is the true power of concept art. We need something that says something new. Well not real new - we know what the Thief world is like - dark and moody, with brooding shadows and atmospheric lights, and ominous sillhouettes. But see how the concept art took that "theme" and gave it its own character? It's not easy but that's what I think we should aim for. A unique style of our own. I can see these sketches are just drafts, but they're a good start.

I'm not a music guy, so get your salt grains ready. I think these sound pretty good. Nice, quiet background ambience style tunes. The first one is nice, although the exact tone of the piano gave me a different 'feeling' than I would expect in the game. A little more light and airy that I would expect, but not bad altogether The second one is also nice. Defintely more ambiance than music. I was with it all the way till the end, where some of the sounds became a little too rythmic, and began to sound more music than ambiance. I think there is a place for musical ambience and environmental ambience, but I question whether they should be mixed together in the same track. Triggered changes could work with this, of course... music changes are great when done correctly! The third one was probably my favorite, particularly the beginning. Great, dark, brooding musical ambiance. My one complaint is the drastic change between the first half and the second half. This is two different themes smashed into one song, I think, and maybe they should be separated. The first half should continue into a new movement, but it should definately carry over the themes. Also, I noticed quite clearly the chimes used in the first two, sounding like distant clock bells. Nice sound on these. However, in ambiance, I think you may want to avoid features such as these. On a five to ten minute loop, the reoccuring bells could seem strange to a player who recognizes a midnight clock chime occurring every 5 minutes. The chimes would work fantastically as an intro segment that isn't looped, or a triggered musical bit though. Note that this restriction doesn't apply to all features; bangs sudden dischordant sounds, etc. can fit in with the environment and not call attention to themselves. Anyway, just my opinion, as a non-sound designer