Dear Oddity Thanks Man! (lw)

[TYROT]

Dear oDDity,

 

I have watch your mapping tutorial..It s awesome...Thanks SO much..I never thought it s that much easy......

 

I couldnt put your picture on my wall but i put Edward Munch.... is it ok..

 

THAAAAAAAAAANKS deeply

 

And by the Atti you are very good modeller why dont you little try Lightwave..I bet you can create like a factory so much stuff...

 

Once a lightwaver always a lightwaver...so you can really try ... What you say...

 

BEST BEST BEST ! for you oDDity

[oDDity]

Hehe, ok, well I look forward to seeing one of you models in the game with a normal map then

I'm currently working out all the parameters for material files and shaders (there's a fucking list the length of your arm) and the best use of normal maps and spec maps, and how they relate to the best low poly model design. I'll post any useful info up when I discover any.

[TYROT]

dear oDDity

 

MAN! Thanks again..I made it ...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MY stupid blackjack is in the game...Oh my gooooooodnesss..Im a happy lightwaver....From now on I can prepare texture ready models with no problem....IT s simply AMAZING stuff....

 

THis is so cool..THANK THANKS THANKS again..

 

ANd really it s amazingly easy to import models ... Really ..Everyone can do it so easily...so fast.......

 

Man...I still cant believe it....I was hundreds of lightyears away from the engine right now because of you i found a wormhole and ...im in the engine..

 

 

THANKS... sorry for extreme enthuaism ..i simply cant help it..

 

BEEEEEEEEEST

[oDDity]

Yes, it is really exciting the first time you see a model you made in the game and can run around it)

Don't worry about being so entusiastic and relentlessly cheerful, it kind of makes up for the fact that I'm generally a miserable bastard

[TYROT]

Dear oDDity,

 

 

Man you were giving me heart attack few days ago..right now you are giving me different heart attacks..Probably i have to find anti-oDDity pills...

 

That s really so kind of you to show all those details..I really watch over and over .It really helped me alot..

 

I just wanna ask general question...about importing

 

1- Let say for a decent character what is the maximum number of polygons?

 

2- Same question but this time for a decent let's say table..or a chest or a bow...or a chair.. what s the maximum number for engine to make things smooth..and ok..

 

Cuz i really wanna model huge detailed chairs and tables...I got a very huge reference images...So i really wanna keep them in normal level..I dont wanna go berserk like necklace..

 

and... i can see that you are in good mood..May be i can use it as my personal advantage and post another noblewoman :) for turning you EVILMODE So when you feel so good for people :) and pissed off with it..send me a PM .."ok Tyrot im ready for your punishment "

 

Man...i love this team

 

Best..... (till the next Noblewoman :) )

[oDDity]

Well, never expect anything but honesty from me, that's all, call it a character flaw if you like

 

You CAN model huge detailed tables and chairs, this is the whole point of using normal maps, however, it's often better just to do the small detail with textures and normal map the texture. Fortunatley we have a very talented fruniture texture right here on the team.

THe low poly versions of most furniture should be kept under 500 polgons (triangles) as a rule, though there are always exceptions.

As for charcaters, I'm currently converting the Builder guard into doom, and it'll probably be around 4000 polys. THis is as high as it should get. This is a pretty complex model consisting of 40 separate pieces. With a simpler character like a zombie, or a maid it should be more like 2000 - 2500.

OF course, the high resolution version of the charcater can be as many polys as you want. Model in as much detail as you like. The normal map will then show that detail up on the low resolution version of the model.

You can use qemLOSS (get version 3 if you haven't already) to reduce the models to low poly versions, but it's usually makes a total mess of the mesh and I find I have to spend a lot of time merging polys and using the add edges tool (great plugin that) to fix the mesh up. qemLOSS is also very wasteful with polys. You'll find you can usually tweak it by hand and get may 40 percent less polys and keep the mesh looking just as good.

A lot of the time with simpler objects it's easier just to model the low poly version from scratch using the high res objct as a template (I know you don't like to use templates) but the low poly version of the model must fit very tightly around the high res version to get the best results from the normal map..

Set smoothing in the surface editor to 180 for the objects.

Making low poly triangulated models look good with normal maps takes practice (I'm still learning about it myself)

A good idea is to take a look at the doom lwo models and their texture and normal maps to see how they're put together.

BTW how to you UV map? DO you know the trick of using a morph map to tweak the object out to a flat plane and then you can do a planar UV with perfect result, rather than try to tweak the points in the UV editor?

[sparhawk]

qemLOSS is also very wasteful with polys. You'll find you can usually tweak it by hand and get may 40 percent less polys and keep the mesh looking just as good.

While you are in that good mood of helping us with tutorials you might explain how to reduce polies. Of course I can understand to avoid to much detail in the first place, but how do I reduce polygons when I have a highly detailed mesh without sarcificing detail to much. When I did the bowl I restarted it from scratch several times until I had a version that has less polies and still lookd round. But fo course the bowl is a very simple object and can be done in 1 minute. You wouldn't want to start from scratch with a complex object you spent several days on, just to reduce the polygon count. So I wonder if there is a trick to this to speed up that workflow.

[oDDity]

Well acxtually, yes, it is normally better to start from scratch, evenm with a complex 40 piece mesh like the builder guard. THat's what I did yesterday, I reduced the 25,000 poly builder to 3800 polys, and it still looks (pretty) good.

THe qemLOSS plugin I mentioned takes a high res object, say 1000 polys, you type in how many ploys you want to reduce it to, say 100, and it'll leave you with a 100 triangles pretty much in the shape of the original.

I hate using it though, it's really messy. THe only part of the builder guard I used it on was the head, and this was only becasue I had already uv mapped the head and the newest version of qemLOSS (3) keeps near perfect vertex map coords when reducing. Still, I had to spend about 45 minutes tweaking abnd twiddling at the reduced head mesh, merging/deletong polys and points, and add new ones elsewhere to get it looking good.

There is no way I can 'explain' how to get a low poly mesh looking it's best with as few polys as possible, you just have to go by eye.

Objects like bowls and spheres are particularly difficult to getlooking good in low poly, since you ten to see it edge on (from the top) the whole time, and so you need a certain amout of polys to keep the silhouette looking smooth and stop it looking angular. A normal map can't hide that.

[oDDity]

BTYW, hands are particularly tricky to convert to low poly, and still keep therm looking good and full animatable.

 

THese are a set of 170 poly hands that I use for my low poly charcaters. IT's really impossible to get them any lower than this, and still keep them functional, and they look pretty good.

Anyone can have these if you'd like to save time arsing about with your own. They are already UV mapped as well, which is another eaqlly shitty job out of the way/.

Edited December 19, 2004 by oDDity

[TYROT]

dear oDDity

 

 

I know your honesty is your personal guide. And you told me you were honest with yourself till you get this level of modelling..

 

And i think you are about to write a book called LW for DOOM3..I mean you are really giving book level information..i have already made NOTES from oDDity document file...Im copying pasting everything you post...

 

I know qemLoss is not that much functional..It needs lotta tweaking..But i was thinking the make the same model with lets say 5 or 4 patch division in modeler... And making everything in hires with this 5 patch division level and making a NORMAL MAP from that division level...

 

and then Freeze the low poly object let say in 2 division..and make the triple later on.. what do you say ... actually i should try first..Because everything is already patch divided (sub patch) the tweaking should be less..

 

That s why i will model everything with subpatches what do you think?

 

Thanks for reminding the smoothing angle 180... i was really freaking out already.

 

from your posts i understand so many details. because i was getting excited more and more working here, i was pushing Atti to LW side hopefully he can try one day...

 

Honestly,

 

 

BEST..

[oDDity]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by all that.

Yes you can make the high res object with subpatches and then freeze at 4 or 5 divisions, that's the best way to get good normal map.

Not sure what you mean about making the low poly version by freezing at 2. You're high poly subpatched version even frozen at level 2 will be a lot of polys, and this poly count will be doubled if you just triple it you triple it.

The when you toggle off subpatch modde the low poly cage can look very bad compared to the subpatch version, if you have been doing a lot of tweaking in subpatch mode.

What I usually do if I am going to use qemLOSS, is to freeze he subpatch object at level 2 and then run qemLOSS. Like I said, you are better off just remodeling a low res version.

[TYROT]

dear oDDity

 

yes i got it.. Goddamn it..it s really turning into a huge number even with 2..Goddamn it.. You are right it s so wise to remodel low rez version. man..I was hoping a miracle.....But at least UV mapping is getting easy.. Actually about UV mapping ..i was seriously thinking buying...Bodypaint version 2.

 

But as far as i can see next update will be revolutionary in terms UV mapping..

 

I will decide after seeing that 8.2 update..

 

Actually i believe sometimes is better to make everything in LAYoUT procedurals and normal mapping...then have a nice clean atlas mapping..or other good UV mappin, but not insanely accurate UV mapping....then baking the surface with radiosity - are light combo according to the level....

 

I was thinking about really if we really little bit reach some certain values about light colors in the levels we can match that texturing in lightwave universe and make the object's surface baking process accordingly.. Without trusting (as you mention before) Doom3's engines..

 

what do you say...? i hope i was clear enough..

 

I mean in levels we can have a certain type of light and light colors..different light sources with different kelvin values..as we texturing our model with radiosity in LW we can obey those kelvin numbers in the light, (or color values). And may be it would be so much accurate texturing. I have seen in your computer screen you still have UNREALED shortcut, you know how different looks Lightwave objects in Unreal in terms of getting light from a lightsource..I mean doom3 is definetely so much better but we can improve this..

 

I mean may be unrealistic but at least while we making our models we should know little bit level too.. What do you say...Other wise it will be imported objects to the every level with same texture...and this texture quality will be (unfortunately) depending on Doom3Engine...

 

Is it so unrealistic to even start to make concept art for some interiors along with the certain light fixtures.. Not just concept art for models but also for levels...We can rebuilt that level in lightwave and use lightwave's breathtaking renderer with surface baking...

level designer should also know where this model has to recieve the light and put that model let say to a certain place..Not close to fireplace...for example..

 

 

Am i making sense..... If im not it s ok..

 

best (and little confusion)

Edited December 19, 2004 by TYROT

[oDDity]

That's more or less what you would do if you were building a level for UNreal Tournament for example, but it doesn't work in engines like Doom with their own realtime shadows and specularity.

If you prelight a level in a 3d app, the light and shadows and specularity doom was casting would look all wrong.

THe textures have to be flat lit with no specular.

And also remember we're making this mod so that other people can use our models to make their own levels, and it would be a total headache for level designers to have to place their lighting according to the needs of every pre-lit model they put in the game.

So I'm afraid the lighting has to be generic and flat.

[TYROT]

dear oDDity,

 

ok ok...i got it....for general use we have to sacrifice the pre-lit stuff you are right ok..then... we will go with the flow...

 

 

best