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Sotha
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Posts posted by Sotha
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4 hours ago, datiswous said:
Oh I didn't know this. That makes zero sense.
Is there a tutorial about that in the training mission?
Makes perfect sense and mines even more cool!
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On 12/9/2024 at 11:22 PM, High John said:
Very enjoyable. A couple of strange/interesting things.
1) In the lower catacombs there's
an undead at an altar, at the end of a bridge/causeway over lava. Although I was well stocked with holy water and water arrows,
it look me a number of goes to dispatch him.
When you hit him from a distance with the first holy-water-arrow, he starts running around like crazy, and it's hard to hit him with the next arrow.
If you get closer before the first arrow, he spots you and reaches you before you've fired enough arrows to kill him.
Finally I hit him with the first arrow again, and he did the whole running around crazy thing. And ran right off the bridge into the lava.2) When I first went through the door at the bottom of the stairs going into the lower catacombs, I immediately hid in a corner.
A skeleton and a zombie wandered out the door to the stairs. So I locked the door with them outside.
I forgot about them until I had finished in the lower catacombs, and needed to return.
I opened the door, but there was no one. So I went up the stairs to the upper catacomb, and found the zombie lying dead at the top of the stairs, presumably killed by the mine that was there.
I later found the skeleton upstairs, wandering around in the church.SpoilerCool! Did the one who dived into lava actually die? I didn't consider that option, so I don't know if the trigger_hurt actually hurts AI.
TDM holy water arrows are too weak IMHO. Fire arrows and mines are very effective, though.
The idea in the mission was that when the player opens the catacombs door, the revenant and the zombie escape to the church and start killing people. A little Friday night fun for the undead monsters.
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8 hours ago, chakkman said:
Sorry, but, I don't find myself in any of those options. You might want to rephrase, or become aware of your motives for doing such a poll.
Just to clarify, my motivation is curiosity of how people prefer to play the game. This is interesting information from mapper's point of view, obviously.
8 hours ago, chakkman said:I knock out guards, but, I don't "love" knocking "everybody" out, nor do I "love" piling "everybody" up.
Very telling phraseology.
I just saw someone sharing a youtube video, where the author named that as one popular playstyle (1:30), hence it is on the list. It is a valid playstyle someone might have.
So please do not overthink it, but just choose the option that closest matches your preference. You can also refrain if you so choose, nothing wrong it that either.
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3 minutes ago, datiswous said:
What do you mean with "tools"?
Thanks! Poll questions clarified a bit.
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Hi! There has been a lot of discussion about TDM playstyle recently. I got curious and would like to have a poll to see what kind of playstyles people prefer.
Remember, there is no "wrong" way to enjoy a TDM mission.
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1 hour ago, datiswous said:
There is actually even an entity specifically for this kind of stuff: trigger_inactivity.
AI walks through a security room with some guards playing cards. The mapper notes that the patrol cycle is so that the AI visits the security room every X seconds. The mapper decides that if the AI is gone for 3*X seconds, the guards note the AIs absence and toss the playing cards aside and start patrolling.
And yeah, then the player knocks them out, too.
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34 minutes ago, chakkman said:
What is the point of a no K.O. objective?
It makes the mission more difficult as the player cannot just KO everyone. Some players might like the added challenge, but it is unknown how large portion of the player pool.
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That is an interesting concept: if enough AI in area one are KO'd or killed, then the second area security gets beefed up.
Probably works in smaller missions too. If mansion outside guards get KOd, the fully armored guard get a "bad feeling" and he puts all the lights on and goes stand in front of the display case where the main target of the mission is located.
I like it!
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Did people play Alien Isolation? In that game, there were terminals which the player activated to get their progress saved.
In a triple-A game that was bold move and directly contributed to the sense of dread and terror. Same thing with games like DayZ the feelings the game evokes are stronger because there are no saves and you can die any moment and what matters is your skill and wits. Or luck.
Then against, hitman 1 did not have saves and it was brutally difficult. I welcomed the ability to have limited amount of saves in the later hitman games.
But I agree with the points that it is no fun to make a little mistake in a huge mission with 1h play time in and you instantly die or get stuck, or the game crashes and one needs to start all over again
I would be inclined to the side that TDM needs the save ability, but of course if a polished fully working implementation existed and someone used it in a smart way, I believe it could work also, because Alien Isolation worked really well.
13 hours ago, chakkman said:I really hope that FM authors won't incoprorate this concept too much in future missions, and people who want a synthetically forced limit of saves play with mods like this, and don't hassle the amount of players who don't want something like that. It's as pointless as a no K.O. objective on higher difficulty levels. Give people options, don't strip the options.
The player, who thinks KO limits are pointless, would have the option to play with easier difficulty that does not have KO limits, and the player who wants a challenge can choose to play with the KO limit. I would say that counts as giving options.
What the mapper should in fact do is dependent whether the player pool likes this kind of challenge or not.
It is clear the community is divided by these matters and the wise mapper caters to both of these pools. At least my target as a mapper would be to create an interesting and nice experience for most of the audience.
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4 hours ago, ChronA said:
The classiest solution could be to have alternate endings. For example, one could reward the player if they successfully completed optional no-kill and no-KO objectives with an extra bit of bonus dialog or a cut scene at the end of the mission. In a multi-mission campaign you could also alter subsequent levels with more alert guards or chatter about a killer on the loose.
Obviously that would take some extra work for the mission author to implement, so I don't mean to suggest it as a prescriptive solution. But for those with the means, it would make an ideal compromise between the vision of the author and the freedom of the player.
But if majority of players play style is so that they reload if AI gets alerted or things go wrong, it is a terrible mistake for the mapper to spend time making content that becomes visible if AI is alerted: only a few people will see this work. This is one of the reasons I was interested in this and challenged to play without saving.
There is no point in making alternative alert patrols or other if-AI-is-alerted content. That is a lot of work and nobody will see this work. It is better to spend the effort elsewhere.
The mapper could make positive comments for fulfilling no-kill/KO objectives, but that would need debriefing with if/then logic. In TDM debriefing are quite rare and they are more work.
7 hours ago, chakkman said:Thief 1 and 2 had, like, 1 mission each with no KO objective, and, only where it made sense, e.g. the city watch station where you weren't supposed to let anyone know that you were there.
No KO objectives don't make a lot of sense, considering that you break into someone's mansion, rob him off everything he has. He wouldn't care that you KO'd some guards in the process. On the other hand, if you cause a massacre, it will surely raise some eyebrows, that's why no kill objectives make a lot of sense.
The other unfortunate side effect of no KO objectives is that you basically tell the player "No, you cannot blackjack or kill anyone, ghost the mission.". Which robs the game of an important aspect: That the player can approach it the way he wants to approach it.
We have a similar discussion with saving, where some authors think about doing save rooms, or even completely scratch saving. While that can appear to be a good idea, it comes with a lot of negative aspects: 1. Again, you tell the player how he is supposed to play the game, instead of letting him choose how he wants to play the game. 2. There can be issues in the map, and the player can get stuck, and, 2 hours into the mission and no saves = bummer. The game also can crash, which results in the same problem.
Thankfully, only very few missions have no KO objectives, and, it seems like FM authors realized at some point that it restricts the way people can approach the missions. It's already a bit of an issue that, when you place undead in your missions, you basically limit the player to ghosting, as there are no proper means against the undead. Even worse in TDM than in the original Thiefs, where you had at least a few tools against them. Also, many TDM FM author seem to make the undead even more unbeatable by giving them more health etc.
Let's talk about difficulty, too. There was only one mission with no-KO objective in all of difficulties in Thief games (IIRC, could be wrong), but most missions had *difficulty* based no-kill objectives.
Are you OK with no-KO and no-kill objectives appearing with higher difficulties and the normal difficulty not having those at all? Then players who like the challenge can choose a higher difficulty and those who do not like them, can take the normal one. That is the idea of the difficulty selection: the player who is more confident with their skills can take extra challenge.
A side note: fire arrows and explosive mines instakill zombies and revenants in TDM. There are very effective tools against the undead. I agree that holywater is too weak in TDM.
8 hours ago, snatcher said:Missions should end prematurely when the player dies or if the player fails miserably, in example by killing a target that is key for the plot, in which case the mission is a complete failure and there is no point in continuing.
Sure, I planned not to hurt anybody but hey, it just happened. I now have a red cross in my objectives but I can choose to carry on, probably with a different mindset. Doesn't this sound like emerging gameplay?
I guess my view is that ending a mission prematurely because of no-ko's or no-kills feels meh: either go to bed or reload.
Failed no-kill objective = meh: This is true, therefore good alternatives for no-KO and no-KILL objectives are needed. One can make the objective optional, true, but what is the purpose of it then, it is more like a recommendation and failing it has no consequences, other than a red cross on objective list.
So until now I don't see options for no-KO and no-kill objectives. Summary:
*optional objective is not a difficulty modifying objective. Difficulty objectives should modify mission difficulty.
*there is probably no point in making additional content with alterted-AI or violated no-KO or no-kill objectives, because most of the people will never see that content.
*Positive feedback for non-violated no-kill/KO objectives would need special debriefing, which are more work for low impact (although I agree they would be a nice finishing touch.)
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I played this masterpiece tonight.
Amazing quadruple-A quality mission. Perfect balance in gameplay, outstanding visuals, expertly crafted story and pacing, interesting location, excellent opportunities to use tools, tools were given, AI patrolling was interesting and challenging.
SpoilerIn the beginning when I first entered the ship I was thinking that "no way! This is going to be very hard: bright lights, lots of guards patrolling." Then I looked again and started seeing the ingeniousness: everything is wood, there are walkable protrusions here and there. Rope arrow ballet!
I completed it with some fall damage and stealth score of around 4. Kept me on my toes from start to finish.
Wow, just wow! Hats off! Please keep making more!
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Played this tonight. Great mission!
It had a lot of Trail of Blood feeling from Thief 2. Relatively easy side, because there was plenty of darkness and plenty of space. Easy, well, if one doesn't take too much jumping risk. I did and of course fell to my death, last save million steps away, serves me right.
Next time I was much more cautious and made good progress.
As soon as I saw
Spoilerthe tree house I knew that's where the Bellero was. The bloodwaterslide was fun, but I though first it was poison and didn't touch the liquid before saving. Should it have been no save run, I would have dragged Bellero out the hard way.
I also used a lot of tools that usually get very little use in many TDM missions (my included, sadly) I used rope arrows to maximum effect and also used even moss arrow: I didn't know that the base of the elevator can be accessed through the main door of the sanctuary. Instead I moss arrowed the bottom of the elevator and jumped down from the hole in the wall with Bellero. Took only a little bit damage and out we went, both alive and well. Moss arrow is way too underappreciated.
Yet another masterpiece among TDM missions, good work!
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8 hours ago, Oleron said:
Um, phrasing?
The ambiguousness of our abbreviations has always been a source of lot of fun!
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12 hours ago, snatcher said:
My cup of tea
BUT
I BJ'ed a guy 20 mins into the mission and he died. Not your fault (game bug) but all considered mappers probably shouldn't make the mission fail but the objective.
Thanks for this mission @Sotha, time to go back to my cave and try again in a night or two
Damn! Well, it says on the tin that TDM is *gritty* steampunk universe and if you hit someone in the head with the intention of knocking them out, you could accidentally hit too hard and smash their skull, or they could hit their head when falling.
Those no-kill, no-KO objectives I usually do are, I believe, according to the traditional thief standard: IIRC in thief 1 and 2 increasing difficulty increased gold extraction requirement and introduced no-kill and no-KO objectives.
It would be cool if we could somehow re-invent those difficulty conventions. Increasing difficulty should increase difficulty and no-kill and no-KO does exactly that. What would be another way to increase difficulty? I am all ears for better suggestions.
There could be more guards with higher difficulty, but there is no way to convey that via the objective list, which is the only way player sees the influence of the difficulty on the mission.
So difficulty must be in relation to mission objectives and what else could there be other than no-kill, no-KO objectives? Sure, they could be set as optional, but then they would have no real difficulty adjusting effect.
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Amazing mission! Truly a masterpiece. 5/5 everything!
I got out with the stone and alive with stealth score of 45, KOd two (poor servant lady onto whom I bumped into around a corner and some scribe who was just sitting and writing), I received 120 damage (fell a couple of times and got hit by swordmen while fleeing a couple of times). The insurance company would never insure my thieving exercises...
Good thing I had some apples and found a few health potions. I saved twice because there was
Spoilerquite a long fall when climbing the tower and that would have been instakill for me should I have failed the jumping exercise.
This mission is TDM at its best! I didn't even visit all the rooms, because I was so interested seeing what's in the tower. I need to play this again and visit all rooms...
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This was an interesting mission! It surprised me many times.
SpoilerI'm not a big fan of key hunts, but the poem was good and even an idiot like me could find the keys, even though I was close to give up. But didn't! And found them! Made my day!
The transformation was very cool. One frob and everything changed. Ingenious idea! Bravo!
I was totally clueless how to get out from the church and was wandering around for a while. I never spotted the lever initially. Some kind of clue would have been in order after the undead-change. Maybe a blue fire or the angel would have pointed to the lever somehow? I don't know how, but somehow I noticed the lever in the end and pulled it. I liked the dramatic effect of the bells and general spookiness. But I got no clue what was going on or why the door opened with the bells.
And then there was some black spook running around the yard like crazy. And there was an angel and of course I knocked her out just so see if I can. It got quite weird for me in the end.
But that I guess was a good thing. You caught me off guard so many times and I liked the novelty and the creativity.
Well done and thanks!
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Ah, just to clarify: I don't consider ghosting (no AI interaction, no tool use) normal play style in the sense that I would specifically design my missions to be ghostable.
I'm more interested in providing a challenge and tool use is expected to overcome those challenges. Ghosting may be possible, but could be extremely difficult.
All the ways to enjoy TDM are of course correct, if it brings the player joy.
I was curious for people playing without saving, because I've seen many playthrough videos (with no tool use) where the player saves constantly. That could mean that the player probably reloads every time when things do not go as they wanted. Those players can see only the "unalerted AI side" of TDM and are missing out all the gameplay that arises when the AI detects the player somehow.
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Spoiler9 hours ago, STRUNK said:1 hour ago, Tarhiel said:
Spoiler
Oops, looks like I forgot the lever into the library.
In an early version, the door to the small room with the chest and the trap was indeed in the library and the lever in the bookcase opened it.
But I decided to move the door into the bedroom side so that you can enter through the cabinet. That I think was more fun. The lever to the cabinet secret door is on the wall next to the cabinet (get on the bed to see it.)
The original lever in the library I forgot apparently to delete. It does nothing.So you found a developer-legacy-Easter-egg-secret even the author was unaware of! Congrats!
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1 hour ago, thebigh said:
There's a really nice touch in this mission that I only just realised:
In the lowest two difficulties, you don't have to go into the undead lair at all. There's just barely enough loot in the ground level area and upper tombs to meet the medium loot goal. So if you're very very thorough you can avoid the worst dangers entirely and still run off with enough cash to start your new life.
I'm going to assume that was deliberate. So well done on adding this new approach.
It was sort of by-accident-by-design.
SpoilerI placed loot naturally as I went on with the mapping and then noticed that there is almost enough so that catacombs are unnecessary, liked it, and fine tuned it so that the end result is what you see.
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2 hours ago, Knüppelaufdierübe said:
Just finished and it was fun, but I'll still nag about a few things
Maybe I'm too much of a casual player, but for a no-save run (which I would never do, so, just hypothetically speaking), I would have liked some helpers. Like, being able to snatch NPC room keys and lock them in or something (which is just me ranting about NPCs un-/locking doors without (snatchable) keys ... although I can totally see some reasoning behind that).
As for the secret
Thanks for comments!
SpoilerStand on the bed and look at the wall next to the closet. I never though that one would blind-from it from the inside of the closet. Whoopsie.
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- Popular Post
- Popular Post
Hello! To celebrate 15 years of TDM, and because so amazing missions have been made in my absence, I felt compelled to made a small mission for everyone to enjoy:
The Last Offering!
Mission briefing:
SpoilerThe place I once called home is fading away, just a shadow of what it used to be. The streets that were once full of life are now quiet and empty.
Hope is slipping away, and those who can leave are heading to the City, looking for a better life.
I'm at a turning point. The idea of leaving is tempting, but the City wants a heavy price to get in. I need some gold: enough to start fresh and escape this dying town and all the memories that haunt me.
In the middle of our old Builder cemetery stands a chapel, a reminder of when wealth and status meant everything, even in death. Below it lie the catacombs, a maze of forgotten treasures where the rich once sought their eternal rest.
My plan is simple: break into the chapel, find a way down to the catacombs, and take whatever gold I can find. After all, the dead don't need their riches anymore.
Build time: roughly 30 h darkradiant time during october-november 2024.
AI has been used for initial mission brainstorming, proofreading and polishing readables.
Thanks:
*Whole TDM community for everything.
*Betatesters: thebigh, datiswous, ShadowOther:
I challenge you to play this short mission without saving or loading! The player gets plenty of gold for gear: buy a good thieving kit and enjoy the mission without saving! It is quite possible it is more exciting that way. Let me know what you think replying to this thread: I'd love to hear about your experiences and opinions.Enjoy, and I hope you have as fun playing as I had making this!
Download link:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HthqgoeBKf7kgYTRm5ice5t31_90_PRu/view?usp=drive_link
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Congrats! I would say everyone's a winner!
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On 11/13/2024 at 1:23 PM, Dragofer said:
I guess it happens because some part of the AI's ragdoll is clipping into the bed's collision mesh at the time of the ragdoll event, so it falls through the bed just like when you activate a moveable that's clipping into a table. You could try making the bed nonsolid and putting in some nodrawsolid brushwork where the level of the bed surface is a unit or two lower to reduce the risk of this bug happening. If it happens a lot with specific beds they should have their collision mesh changed on the core side.
I figured it out!
In front of the bed, depending on the bed type, one must place step brush of monster_clip. "models/darkmod/furniture/beds/singlebed1.lwo" need monster_clip brush of 5 units high, for example.
The AI climbs on the monster_clip brush before going to bed, and that raises the AI up enough so that they do not clip into the bed model if they get KO'd while sleeping
The math goes like this:
The safe sleeping surface height is 20 units from the floor. That means that the bunk bed prefab, which has the sleeping surface 23 units from the floor needs monster_clip step of 3 units. "models/darkmod/furniture/beds/singlebed1.lwo" need monster_clip brush of 5 units (the beds sleeping surface is 25 units from the floor).
Just measure the sleeping surface from the floor and add a step monster_clip brush that raises AI floor to 20 units from the sleeping surface.
Remember to make pillows "solid 0" if possible. If there is a solid pillow inside the AI's head they can still get violent spasms.
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Hi! Is there a technical solution for the AI sinking inside a bed if they are KOd while sleeping?
I have simple bed, AI standing approx 16 units away from the bed. The bed is monsterclipped and the MC brush raises all the way to the ceiling to prevent AAS32 generation on top of the MC brush.
The AI has lay_down_slide_dist 32 to make them move to center of bed when going to sleep. The AI is standing on level floor and the bed is also level. If the AI goes to sleep and they get KO'd, then the AI nearly always falls inside the bed.
Any ideas to fix this on map level, or is it TDM level bug?
The Dark Mod Mission Stats for 2024
in Fan Missions
Posted
Thanks for compling the list, GW!
15 years of TDM with 189 missions means almost 13 missions per year. Let's think what it means in a rough comparison:
Thief 1 had 13 missions. Thief 2 had 15 missions.
Therefore, on average, this community has created a new thief game worth of content every year. For fifteen years! Every year!
This is definitely something to be proud of, methinks! Congrats everyone! Thank big thanks for your hard work!