demagogue

There's an interesting discussion going on in the SS2 forum at TTLG about moving SS2 assets over to Thief-dromed to make SS2-type FMs in Thief (this will be relevant, don't worry...). The main punchline of the discussion is that classic-SS2 FMs virtually *never* get made because they have RPG elements; and there are so many Thief FMs precisely because they are not RPG, but limited, discrete, one-shot type missions. Having stats, improvable/upgradable skills, etc, all the RPG elements you see in DX and SS2 require epic campaigns to even be relevant ... and the lion's share of TDM FMs won't (or shouldn't) be like that, nor should authors feel pressured to make epic style FMs (and I mean really big; think about it) because so many RPG elements are part of the basic interface. A lot of authors won't want to bother (they'd rather make the more discrete mission, particularly novices, which everyone will be at one point; and getting new authors to *want* to build with TDM is essential to keeping TDM FMs continuing to be made), and those that do try will waste years making 1 probably incomplete FM when they could have made 3+ complete non-RPG FMs in the same time. That's the best argument I see against having any RPG elements in TDM, and comparing the number of DX & SS2 FMs vs. Thief FMs (not just for that reason, but that's a big reason), is the best evidence. ps, I should say I loved both SS2 and DX, and I loved their RPG elements ... so it's not because of any intrinsic dislike of RPGs that I'm saying this. I just don't think it's conducive to FM-making; it'd do much more harm than good IMHO.

I liked burricks... something about them. There in the shadows Of my fading memory, A lonely burrick.

Yeah, funny as hell ... I should have added that but was being rushed in that post, which I find always makes me sound more serious than I really am... I remember doing something like this in anticipation (or anxiety) of just how bad Thief III might be (3 of us in a row, keeping it going): http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?...6828#post796828 And yeah, nat'l language parsers have so far to go. I still hope you guys think about some menu-based NPC-interaction system, though, or at least put it on the back-burner. (& I'll maybe deal with how I might set up my own idea myself after release if I still feel like it ... now that I have an idea of how it might even be possible. Crackpot as it admittedly is; when you've played around with parsers and IF stuff long enough, like any programming, it just becomes 2nd-nature to think about, and since I'm only in this FM biz for my own kicks, I thought it couldn't hurt to ask what's possible for me to do myself when the time comes). More OT, I find it (maybe ironically) reassuring that stupid topics like this are up in the thread queue (even if it is my own topic) ... It gives the impression that you've pretty much got all the basics under control and it's just a matter of time getting it all together. (.")-b

Well, for the record, I was really just interested in NPC interaction. The rest of it I agree is better off using other control methods, of course, and don't really care about. So I spent a lot of time in university studying AI ... but I was most interested in parsers and natural language. And we were doing some pretty exciting stuff that I knew would sooner or later make it into games ... I mean, pretty sophisticated AI comprehension, goal orientated responses, etc. It's one thing to say that using text as a control for movement or object manipulation is absurd ... it is I agree. But for NPC interaction, that's where open textured language might really shine. And I don't think any game has seen the state of the art on it ... Don't get me wrong, I think menu-based interaction is the best way to go design-wise and for all practical purposes, and like someone said, you don't want to be fighting the console. My motives for suggesting it in the Dark Mod were pretty much entirely selfish in that I wanted to keep working on a game-oriented NPC parser that I'm already playing with anyway, but in the context of a game I really like, where I can care about the characters. It wouldn't be good as a default feature - honestly, natural language parsers aren't there yet. I just wanted to know if it'd be easy for me to rig for my own kicks. That's it. And nothing really like the examples you guys rightfully poked fun at.

That's good news, and makes it sound pretty straightforward to implement by an FM-maker (or someone releasing a generic script later on FM makers can build off of) without any extra work on you guys' part in development. That's a really great thing and I hope something that FM makers start using ... it was definately part of DX's magic. I still wish that I could get a functioning text-prompt in-game... (This is now my own, out-of-play meta-comment ) I've long had this dream that fps's and IF could be somehow integrated. And if you think about it, there are really just two main missing links (that I can think of), since most kinds of movement and most kinds of basic object manipulation are already in FPSs ... 1) is open NPC interaction. 2) is maybe non-standard (open) object manipulation, using objects in non-intuitive, novel ways. Frobbing an object, or an object to another object, is a pretty blunt instrument, but then again a good designer can do a lot with just that, as I've seen in many a creative T2 FM. And adding much more complexity only marginally opens up the kinds of interactions you can have for the trouble. 3) Edit, maybe three. Also, there's non-standard (open) player movements like lying down, sitting down, dancing ... again, interesting, but only marginally so for most games, esp given the trouble it'd probably cause. But NPC interactions, and in particular *open* NPC interactions, seems almost fundamental to getting really immersive / interactive (IF-level) story-telling & puzzle-solving off the ground. So really #1 is the main missing link that could make a difference. The difference between menu-based and open/text-based dialogue/interaction is maybe how much you want to lean towards the console side vs. the IF side of NPC interaction ... You can tell where my sympathies are. Anyway, TDM just rekindled my ideas and made me wonder if it's possible and what would have to be done to get there. Thanks for replying, all. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Edit. On reflection, it occurs to me that most (even seemingly open) NPC interactions could be taken care of with a menu that comes up when frobbing an NPC. Along with a list of pre-provided phrases for various AI, there could be also a more open menu system that could allow the player to "ask" the AI about a particular listed topic/object/person/place (not all of them with answers, of course; Q: can you modify a menu list so that new objects you discover can be added?), or "command" an NPC to do a listed action (create a distraction), or even a nice list of "stock-phrases" ("What the hell are you looking at?", "shhh....", "evening") ... open enough that there's lots of room for experimenting and creativity, but closed enough to make it functionally manageable ... just a lot of links to take care of, time-consuming at worst. The more I think about it, the more it seems there's something to this idea. For my own gratification I'll think about it some more, look at how different Adv games use dialogue menus in different ways, and see what I come up with.

All of that sounds right. For how I was thinking about it (thinking back to some AGS's), a dialogue GUI popping up would do the trick ... and even if it pauses the game so you can't control the character until you exited the mode, it wouldn't be the end of the world. If I could get just that much up and running, I'd be willing to try getting it set up with a basic parser... It sounds hard, but I can't help but think it would really open up some awesome possibilities. Anyway, I'm just throwing out the idea. Also, I forgot to mention plan-B, what about a menu based dialogue-system a la Deus Ex 1? I just love NPC interaction, and anyway I can get a foothold into it I'm interested.

In-game text prompt, that is. This is a quick question just to test the waters and see if there are any fish. Ever since I noticed you could type text in-game in Thief with the command line ( cntl+; ), I had this idea that it might be possible to add commands in-game through a text-prompt, sort of like IF-style or the old AGS games (kings quest, space quest, etc.) built into the game, where you could say particular things to NPCs -- like saying a particular password or answering a question to get past an NPC (i.e., the input triggers some AI movement), or "ask X about Y" to learn new info (i.e., the input triggers a screen-text or voice file), where the text itself is triggering things in-game -- and I thought if done right, it might really add to the richness of the game's interactivity, push it more in the interactive fiction direction, which is good IMO. I've played around a lot with parsers, so I could do a lot of the work if the basics were in place (and even pretty unsophisticated parsing can add to a game), but getting the basics into place is what I don't know. Of course, everything concerning the command-line in Thief is beyond access. But what about TDM? Is it reasonably possible to get a text prompt in-game and link it to in-game tools, enough that an enterprising FM-maker could take care of setting the links up by hand? Where on the possibility scale is something like that? Keep up the good work, gentlemen. I salute you.