Daft Mugi

If the can-blackjack animation is automatic (not initiated by the player), please put that animation behind a cvar. If it is like TDS, definitely please put that animation behind a cvar. For example, a blackjack helper toggleable option. Also, considering blackjacking from the front as an exploit is surprising. There can be more risk with that approach, since a guard might see the player and become alerted, making them unable to be knocked out. Blackjacking from the front can be carefully planned as well, so I don't know why that line of thinking is just for blackjacking from behind.

@stgatilov After discussing `pm_bobroll` and seeing a TDM player on Discord write "mantling roll", I wonder if a better cvar name for this would be `pm_mantle_roll_mod` to match other `pm_*` cvars. Naming is hard...

I'm trying to be helpful as a new TDM player before I get used to all of its quirks or they aren't present in my build. I've seen many Thief players complain about head bob and other movement "issues", so they stop playing TDM. That's not what we want, right? And recently, I saw a TDM player ask on Discord about his `pm_bobroll` not sticking. So, I think reducing the default head bob would reduce the complaints, since it's not working well for many players.

In the playthrough video linked below, the x-ray glasses graphical glitch can be seen. (timestamp from 2:12:03 to 2:12:08)

When playing Iris and Written in Stone, I noticed a graphical glitch with the x-ray glasses. When the x-ray glasses are activated, the first frame of the fade to x-ray vision is the last frame of the previous x-ray glasses usage. To reproduce: Use the x-ray glasses and look at something easily recognizable, such as a light source. Turn off the x-ray glasses. Look at something else. Use the x-ray glasses, and you should for a moment see the last thing you were looking at from #1. What could be causing that? I don't know if it is related, but I've noticed something similar with other (animated) fades: The pop-up note in the upper-left corner will start at 100% opacity and then reset near 0% before fading in to 100% opacity. Loading a new mission or loading a save will have a fullscreen graphical blink. It might be the last frame of the previous scene or the 100% -> 0% -> 100% opacity fade issue. Bug: https://bugs.thedarkmod.com/view.php?id=6109

Thank you! I hope players benefit from that cvar.

I have to admit. I had the same thought after I added yet another cvar. I'd keep the cvars, so there's always that fine grained option. But, yeah, having something really simple in the menu would likely be welcomed. Maybe something like: [no motion] [slight motion] [normal] Or: [reduced motion] [normal] Shortly after I started playing The Dark Mod, I reduced the head bob and tilt view angle. Otherwise, it's been pretty great!

One thing that was uncomfortable for me when I started playing The Dark Mod was how much the view tilted during a mantle. This is similar to the amount of head bob. For those who are sensitive to motions like that as well, I've attached a patch. I hope it or a variation of it will be accepted into the main The Dark Mod codebase, since it'll help those players. The new cvar "pm_mantle_tilt_mod" is a value between 0.0 and 1.0. The default is 1.0, which means no change from the traditional tilt view angle. A value of 0.0 is no tilt. I personally prefer 0.1, which tilts the view only 10% of the traditional amount. idCVar cv_pm_mantle_tilt_mod( "pm_mantle_tilt_mod", "1.0", CVAR_GAME | CVAR_FLOAT | CVAR_ARCHIVE, "The multiplier applied to the tilt view angle during a mantle", 0.0f, 1.0f ); (Patch based on r10036.) Edit The finalized version present in TDM 2.11. "pm_mantle_roll_mod" default:"1.0" The multiplier applied to the roll view angle during a mantle mantle-tilt-mod-v1-r10036.diff

While these changes to pm_* cvars are being made, would it be possible to change pm_bobroll to 0.0008 by default instead of 0.0015? The reason I propose this change is that I felt slightly dizzy/seasick while playing TDM. I found that 0.0008 felt comfortable, so this default value may help others have a better experience when they start TDM. I tried 0.0006 for a while, but that felt too flat. 0.0008 felt like the sweet spot. Edit: I'm now using the value 0.0010.

Is there a way to get down here without getting hurt? The vine is not climbable, and I've tried different ways of falling to no avail.

Thank you for making this, @Wellingtoncrab! There's so much to explore and discover!

I'm leaving a spoiler here for others (and possibly my future self) who are having trouble finding Tobin's spyglass. I spent ages and ages looking for it. Strong hint and possible spoiler: Spoiler:

The first step is to get TDM compiling from the source code on your system. After that, you can use a tool like TortoiseSVN, patch, or svn patch to apply the diff. Then, compile the source code again. NOTE: You may need to use r9920 from SVN for the patch to apply without conflicts.

@Obsttorte To be clear, I'm not upset with any specific person here. To all, I decided I probably don't have anything else of value to contribute to this topic, since I would just be repeating myself a lot. So, yeah, I felt frustrated repeating myself a lot. And, because I felt drained from so much disagreement with my contributions thus far, I thought it would be better to not participate anymore on this topic and to let everyone know that. I think it's fine to disagree with my contributions, but it doesn't make sense for me to stick around on this topic anymore. I appreciate all of the work you all have done on TDM. Good luck!

I did this already! I provided a solution in the form of a patch with a single cvar to toggle between a new way and the traditional way. No one else has provided a complete solution yet. My solution was to make TDM toggle crouch be like Thief. The feedback so far has been that you all don't like how toggle crouch works in Thief. I've been using my patch since March and haven't run into any issues. With my patch, I play Thief and then I play TDM, and they feel similar. I really enjoy this! I wrote a lot in the beginning of this thread about how different existing crouch systems work and different things to consider. I thought about how it might impact mission design. For example, if it works like regular crouch, then that's a safe choice since it shouldn't break existing missions and it should have the same stealth advantages. I've been thinking about this since March. But I'd rather not think about this anymore for now. I came here to help, because someone in the community wanted this, and I came to help others in the community have fun with TDM, especially those coming from Thief, since they may not be able to code this themselves. I listened to the community: 1) toggle crouch on key down, 2) make it a cvar since some players may want the traditional way. That's how I made my patch. TDM is open source and has a community. Some players will want toggle crouch to work like Deus Ex, Dishonored, Thief, Tetris, Quake, etc. Haha Quake doesn't have crouch. Not everyone will be happy if there is a single way. So, maybe tdm_toggle_crouch_deus_ex, tdm_toggle_crouch_thief, tdm_toggle_crouch_tdm. I don't know. But I do know I've done everything I can for now. I listened to everyone's feedback and came up with compromises and solutions. What else am I supposed to do? It's up to you all now to figure it out for the community by finding a solution (or two). Or, maybe include the community by having a poll. Again, I don't know. I'm a newcomer to TDM and don't know how things work yet around here. I got involved before I was ready, because I was trying to help someone in the community.

I agree!

Also, what do you all think? I hope you @Klatremus@marbleman@FenPhoenix don't mind me pulling you in here. I enjoy and appreciate watching your videos/streams! So, I thought you may want your voice included here as well.

In conclusion (for me), here's what I think we should do: Make cvars for whatever you all come up with. Make a cvar (tdm_toggle_crouch_on_key_down) that defaults to disabled. This is toggle crouch on key down. Veteran players who prefer the old behavior from all these years can disable this cvar. When disabled, crouch has the traditional behavior on ladders/ropes. (Not my way; matches other games.) Make a cvar (tdm_toggle_crouch_disabled_on_climb) that defaults to disabled. Toggle crouch behaves like regular crouch on ladders/ropes with the exception that if you are crouched when attaching to a ladder/rope, you stay crouched until you press the crouch key. After pressing the crouch key on a ladder, your crouch intent matches regular crouch behavior. When you slide, you are using regular crouch behavior, and when you land, you are you are using regular crouch behavior. Then, on key up you stand, just like regular crouch. Speed matches regular crouch. How stealthy you are matches regular crouch. This is the least amount of work and code, probably, and the code is already in the patch. (Not my way; matches TDM regular crouch.) Make a cvar (tdm_toggle_crouch_autostand_on_climb_up) that defaults to disabled. This will autostand the player when climbing up a ladder/rope. This is for players who prefer Thief behavior. (Not my way; matches Thief/New Dark.) I've tried to add more ways for more players to enjoy TDM, such as adding cvars to accommodate different preferences rather than saying, "I don't like it, so no." I don't believe my preferences are the only right way. I believe cvars are needed to accommodate several players. I had this working for myself and stayed quiet, but when I saw @The Black Arrow say that he couldn't play with the current toggle crouch behavior, I decided to help out. My energy for this topic is running thin, though. Can we add those three cvars? @Obsttorte@Dragofer@STiFU@kingsal@stgatilov Edit: Added suggestion from @kingsal: tdm_toggle_crouch_on_key_down defaults to disabled.

Do you have tdm_crouch_toggle_hold_time set to a really high value? What is the penalty? I agree. Earlier, I mentioned real life versus game life in this thread.

Regular-crouch players cannot attach to a ladder while crouching, because they will immediately slide. They must stand before attaching to a ladder. Thief/New Dark does this. I prefer this. I imagine other players coming from Thief may prefer this as well. Regular-crouch players must do this. I think this should be a cvar option. If no other developers want this cvar, then maybe we should have a poll for this. Because if no other players chime in, then it's on them. I already coded this and have it in my build, but they may not be able to. My design philosophy has been focused on least dramatic change by making toggle crouch work more similarly to regular crouch. That is to have the same advantages and disadvantages as regular crouch. Also, that helps to make sure mission designers don't accidentally design a space that only works for toggle-crouch players. If I understand @stgatilov correctly, we could flip this and make regular crouch behave more like toggle crouch on a ladder/rope. That seems like an approach worth exploring as well. Regular-crouch players cannot be crouched on a ladder. Also, people cannot exactly "crouch" on a ladder in real life. Why make toggle crouch this way? Why penalize the player for using ladders? Ladders felt awful in TDM until I learned that regular crouch felt normal. I fixed the speed issue for toggle crouch by making it the same as regular crouch.

I agree that it wouldn't feel good if there wasn't an extra variable to keep track of state, because the camera would jerk up and down during the slide. I think you misunderstood me, though. My thought was about if slide happens without delay. If slide without delay and toggle crouch and crouched, stay crouched. If slide without delay and toggle crouch and standing, crouch until key up. My patch did: If toggle crouch and standing, crouch until key up. The camera stayed smooth, because I used an extra variable to track state. Feels fine! Or, maybe I misunderstood you. What didn't feel good about it?

I think that solves the code problem but would feel awkward to the player.

Just going to throw this out there. Do we need to hold to slide (tdm_crouch_toggle_hold_time)? If we always slide on crouch key down without delay, we can easily check and keep the crouch state during the slide. If toggle crouch and crouched, stay crouched. If toggle crouch and standing, crouch until key up.

I think toggling the opposite crouch position before initiating the slide on key down is worse than how it worked originally on key up. We need a solution for sliding down into the crouch position, so the player makes less noise. Forcing the player into the crouch position and having to toggle to stand up is not good. I like my compromise of behaving like regular crouch, so the player crouches until key up. They at least have control over their noise level. But there's probably another solution/compromise. I agree that not all players will like it, so I'm glad you pointed that out to me. However, I do think players like me, who prefer how Thief/New Dark behaves, should not be ignored just as you don't want your preference to be ignored. My patch was a compromise, since autostand can be jarring in some cases as it moves the camera. Autostand only on move up was the least jarring and matches Thief/New Dark behavior. On move down, I couldn't think of a scenario for autostand and the player can always slide to stand. A compromise of a cvar option sounds like a win-win to me. This is already achieved through mantling, no? On mantle, the player position matches the space.

@stgatilov I do not agree with how the patch was applied and the current state of toggle crouch. Players requested an option to toggle between traditional toggle crouch and the new toggle crouch. The way the patch was applied ignored this request, because the cvar was not included. This breaks sliding for traditional-toggle-crouch players, since they will now slide and land in the standing position (if already in the crouch position on the ladder). This makes more noise. With traditional toggle crouch, they would slide and land in the crouch position (if already in the crouch position on the ladder). This makes less noise. And, we don't know what other scenarios they prefer having toggle crouch happen on key up.