Daft Mugi
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Posts
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Joined
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Days Won
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Posts posted by Daft Mugi
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34 minutes ago, Skaruts said:
But as I was testing this, trying to manipulate a guard around, I noticed that most often when I want to manipulate, I have a tendency to want to not just click and hold, but to also drag the mouse. And that's where the delay interferes a bit.
So I was thinking, maybe the implementation could also detect mouse dragging after the initial click, and immediately enter manipulation mode when it detects it? (Maybe it would be wise to still have a slight threshold for this? Not all mice and hands are exactly steady when clicking, so I suppose there might be a slight unintentional movement. I suppose this would have to be better thought about and tested.)
I agree. I considered this as well. Once I get my gaming dev machine back up and running sometime next week, I'll do some code experiments and let you know.
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22 minutes ago, stgatilov said:
These rules just need to be relaxed slightly for TDM realities.
The game has never allowed extinguishing/using an object without potentially moving it.After all, we don't support some kind of official competition with strict rules, just like we don't support speedrunning (given that we change movement all the time).
There's a group of players who have meticulously tested and adjusted ghosting rules for The Dark Mod.
Please see:
- Official Ghosting Rules: https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148523
- Ghost Rules Discussion: https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148487
Why alienate an established group of dedicated players?
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On 9/26/2023 at 3:40 AM, datiswous said:
Well I was wondering if with the new lean, because you move more in view you also become more visible and there is a change in the lightgem compared to the old method.
8 hours ago, datiswous said:It bothers me that I asked a pretty important question (I think) and nobody is able to answer it.
I looked into this. The lightgem code is quite involved as there are many factors that influence its final value.
I'm mostly sure I found the final value, and when I compared the two leans at the spot shown in the video in the training mission, the new lean had an increase of roughly zero to one lightgem unit. Rarely, there would be a two unit increase. The lightgem range is 0 to 32. So, where the old lean would be 15, the new lean would be 15 or 16 (or rarely 17). Would that actually make a difference in gameplay? I don't know. Also of note, if the lean angle is increased, the lightgem value decreases at that spot with that particular lighting. The old lean angle is more than the new lean angle, so that is why there is roughly a zero to one unit difference.
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7 hours ago, snatcher said:
For some reason you have to go back to straight every time before the next move.
Yeah, I somewhat improved this in the new lean.
7 hours ago, snatcher said:Something that's bothered me from day one though is that the left/right (and forward to a lesser relevance) lean buttons seem to have their own agenda. Freedom of movement is handicapped and you cannot lean left or right incrementally or left-to-right and right-to-left dynamically.
I looked into some of this while I was originally writing the code. It seemed I would have to rewrite/rework too much. I didn't want to do all that work unless this new lean was agreed on. Perhaps something for 2.13.
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7 hours ago, snatcher said:
Now, I haven't tested anything nor checked the code
The latest dev build includes it.
7 hours ago, snatcher said:I guess you applied similar limitations than when shouldering bodies. Apologies in advance if this is not the case.
Yes, very similar limitations. There's a new cvar to adjust allowed mantle height while carrying an object.
The default is set to closely match the limitations of mantle while shouldering. Here's a video showing the limitations.
7 hours ago, snatcher said:At the risk of sounding ungrateful I will say something the same: I already suggested somewhere else that it would be ideal if you include in your workflow going forward a step to see if parts of the code you work on can be made script-friendly.
I'm not sure what scripting would like for this.
7 hours ago, snatcher said:Having said that and once again: thank you very much for the efforts and for sharing the results with us.
You're welcome!
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I've added support to allow mantling while carrying an object as code rev 10454.
On 5/2/2023 at 1:44 PM, snatcher said:Allow mantling while carrying my lucky dice? No?
Now, you can enjoy carrying your lucky dice.
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9 hours ago, stgatilov said:
I plan to make dev build today evening.
If your machine is under repair, may I commit your 3 patches beforehand?
I mean: leaning, mantling, and weapon selection.
Or you want to do it yourself? Or are you waiting for more feedback?I've committed those 3 patches to SVN.
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42 minutes ago, stgatilov said:
I plan to make dev build today evening.
If your machine is under repair, may I commit your 3 patches beforehand?
I mean: leaning, mantling, and weapon selection.
Or you want to do it yourself? Or are you waiting for more feedback?I would like to commit my patches myself. I'll do it after I wake up.
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@thebigh It's really great to see you step up and work to improve the training mission for new players. Thank you!
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38 minutes ago, AluminumHaste said:
Are you being obtuse on purpose? You know exactly what he means. With his limited time to work on the project, he'd rather spend his time on game breaking bugs.
I didn't mean for my written words to have a harsh tone. This issue genuinely bothers me. I'm sensitive to the motion, so I'd appreciate a fix.
38 minutes ago, AluminumHaste said:Of you want it fixed you can help by going back through the dev builds and finding where the regression was introduced.
My dev machine is down for repairs at the moment, unfortunately.
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21 hours ago, stgatilov said:
Ehm... not really, to be honest.
Why not? It's a regression that introduced an annoying stuttering. It seems to be graphics rendering related. The stuttering can be made worse or better by adjusting "com_maxFPS".
21 hours ago, stgatilov said:If I get to books, I'd better look at book stuck issue: it completely breaks the game.
I don't see how that issue is related to this rendering performance issue.
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I would like to make sure we are on track to solve the issues at hand.
Is there agreement that new players struggle and often quit playing TDM due to its current control scheme?
Note the player complaints on the first page.
Is there agreement on this proposal's main objective?
Make TDM's "frob" and "use" interactions simpler for new players while also improving it for longtime players.I should point out that "improving it for longtime players" does not mean that every single longtime player will get a new control scheme that they are satisfied with. They might have to continue to use the "TDM 2.11" control scheme or learn the new one, even though they don't entirely agree with it. Again, the main objective is to "make TDM's frob and use interactions simpler for new players."
Is there agreement that the following issues need to be solved?
- How can the control scheme be made less cumbersome?
- How can bodies be shouldered without first dragging them?
- How can candles be extinguished and lanterns toggled off/on without first picking them up?
- How can so much key pressing and mouse clicking (currently in TDM 2.11) be eliminated?
@stgatilov Are you in agreement with this proposal's main objectives? Even if you disagree with long-press frob, is it ok to include long-press frob in 2.12 dev if players want it?
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57 minutes ago, stgatilov said:
So with your change it would be short click, long click, and click-and-hold.
That is incorrect. Multiloot is still click and hold to loot.
57 minutes ago, stgatilov said:That's exactly the issue that you fixed with crouching, and now you introduce it in another place.
It's a compromise, and that compromise is only for moveable light sources. It gives players a way to extinguish a candle without picking it up first, reducing steps. And, it gives players who ghost the ability to extinguish it without moving it.
The point I was trying to make is that holding frob to perform an action is common.
- Multiloot happens while holding frob.
- Dragging a body happens while holding frob.
- Extinguishing a candle happens while holding frob.
As another example, some missions have a wheel (switch) that opens a gate. While the player holds frob, the wheel turns, opening the gate more and more. I'm not sure if there is a TDM mission with one, but there are Thief missions that do.
There's hold "attack" or "use" button to throw objects farther.
There's hold "manipulate" button to rotate objects. -
3 hours ago, wesp5 said:
No, but I would really like to have the option to have it the other way around too, because I think the idea as such is fine.
I could provide a cvar that restores 2.11 behavior for bodies and uses the new behavior for candles. How about that?
8 hours ago, wesp5 said:What about getting items from corpses or looking up their name using snatcher's improvement?
These things should work just fine. Aren't you using the Windows build provided by @Wellingtoncrab? Could you please give it a try and let me know if there are issues? If so, I'll need to make adjustments.
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23 minutes ago, MirceaKitsune said:
All in all I like the new mode judging from that video. Hope we can give it a try in the next dev snapshot!
Thanks for taking a look!
There's an Ubuntu/Linux build that you might be able to use here:
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On 8/24/2023 at 1:19 PM, stgatilov said:
It's probably updated on timer, nobody cared about book lagging behind a bit.
Are you going to look into this book stuttering issue that was introduced in 2.12?
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Another reason for long-press frob for special action: 2.11 already has one, multiloot.
Quick-press frob to loot.
Long-press frob to multiloot. -
9 minutes ago, snatcher said:
The fewer words you need to explain your mechanic the better it is designed:
For static objects press "frob" to interact with them. For moveables press "frob" to grab them and "use" to interact with them.
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Quick-press frob
- Pick up body and shoulder it (carry it) / Drop body
- Pick up candle/lantern and carry it / Drop candle/lantern
- Pick up an item and carry it / Drop item
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Long-press frob (for special action)
- Drag body or body limbs
- Pinch out candle (also, pinch out candle while carrying it)
- Toggle lantern off/on (also, toggle lantern while carrying it)
Not many words at all.
Have you tried the Windows build that @Wellingtoncrab made yet, or did you just think about this? I'm a bit surprised that you are not for this change. It seems like something you would like.
This change is something best felt while playing. During early testing, those who tried it out in game liked it.
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Quick-press frob
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2 hours ago, stgatilov said:
But situation with candles is different: both grabbing and extinguishing are useful. Click vs Long click, irreversibly extinguishing candles accidentally, eternal arguments about exact duration --- this confusion is removed with double-click.
The "external argument about exact duration" is not removed with double click. There is a setting in OS preferences for setting double-click speed, is there not? The challenge of setting the exact duration is the same for both long-press and double-click frob. Therefore, the confusion is not removed with double click.
I tuned the long-press frob to be somewhere between "unintentional long-press frob" and "it being too sluggish."
Early player feedback guided the current default value of 200ms -- it was originally 300ms. During more play testing, if players are having trouble, the default can be increased and tested. We need to follow the data from actual play testing. The player can adjust the tdm_frobhold_delay cvar to their liking as well.
2 hours ago, stgatilov said:And new players have equally low chance to discover double-click and long click, unless it is explained somewhere.
It's more likely that a player will hold frob while moving an item, because for most items, nothing different or bad happens. It's less likely that a player will unintentionally double-click frob an item during pick up, because they know that would cause them to drop it. Therefore, players are more likely to discover long-press frob to extinguish than double-click frob to extinguish, which is a good thing. We want the player to discover it (if they didn't read the manual or play the tutorial mission). Also, long-press frob is used in other games, such as Fallout 4.
Getting double-click frob to extinguish to work well along with drop item would be troublesome, because there would always be a double-click delay before a single-click drop initiates. Long-press frob does not have a drop issue, because the player can long-press frob until they see the candle extinguish or quick-press frob to instantly drop it.
2 hours ago, stgatilov said:UPDATE: And the double-click approach does not change existing controls, only adds new meaning for the second part of double-click.
To be clear, long-press frob also "does not change existing controls, only adds new meaning for" a longer frob press.
This long-press frob proposal has already been play tested and agreed to be a good control scheme by several players. Double-click frob would need new code written, would need to be play tested, and would need to be fine tuned based on player feedback. Another rewrite of the code would be a distraction and may not bring us closer to the goal of "providing a better experience for new players as well as longtime players," especially since one has already been found and proven: long-press frob.
For longtime players who are not satisfied with this new control scheme, "tdm_frobhold_delay 0" restores TDM 2.11 behavior.
After 7 months of player research, code experiments, early player feedback, adjustments, rewriting code, and more player feedback, I believe long-press frob is good enough, given all of the compromises, imperfections, and its iterative design. It solves the problems stated in the proposal on the first page, and its design goals are met.
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1 hour ago, wesp5 said:
Can you add a variable to turn that behaviour around?
For shouldering a body, that would not be simple to add.
1 hour ago, wesp5 said:Also wasn't long frob supposed to be used to unshoulder a body now, which again is counterintuitive to the short frob shouldering behaviour?
Please see the clarification in the post above. Currently, quick-press frob unshoulders a body.
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To clarify the current design:
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Quick-press frob
- Pick up body and shoulder it (carry it) / Drop body
- Pick up candle/lantern and carry it / Drop candle/lantern
- Pick up an item and carry it / Drop item
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Long-press frob (for special action)
- Drag body or body limbs
- Pinch out candle (also, pinch out candle while carrying it)
- Toggle lantern off/on (also, toggle lantern while carrying it)
To restore TDM 2.11 (and prior) behavior, set the following.
tdm_frobhold_delay 0 -
Quick-press frob
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9 hours ago, cugzkani said:
Are there like logs written anywhere on script errors that you could send? Because it's never happened to me, not sure how to debug this
With extra logging enabled, I tried to reproduce the lock up when moving the bridge. But I wasn't successful. The lock up occurred 2 or 3 times during my first playthrough.
I guess we wait and see if it happens to more players.
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3 hours ago, wesp5 said:
Like when I frob a candle with holder, short frob will take it and long frob will extinguish it. When frobing a body it's the other way around though, short frob will shoulder it and long frob will take it. Short frob on the latter also gives the impression that the body is shouldered very quickly! I suggest to swap this and fix both issues in one go.
The thinking behind the current design is as follows:
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Quick-press frob
- Pick up body and shoulder it (carry it)
- Pick up candle/lantern and carry it
- Pick up an item and carry it
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Long-press frob (for special action)
- Drag body or body limbs
- Pinch out candle
- Toggle lantern off/on
If you are dragging a body, you cannot run off with it. It'll automatically get dropped at some point. So, shouldering a body and carrying a candle are almost the same.
Dragging a body, pinching out a candle, and toggling a lantern off/on are all special actions specific to each of them.
3 hours ago, wesp5 said:Short frob on the latter also gives the impression that the body is shouldered very quickly!
The timing and animation are identical to TDM 2.11, especially since my patch does not touch that code at all. The only difference is that it is less cumbersome to perform the shoulder action with a single key press rather than two key presses. Yes, it is quicker for the player to perform the action, but the game itself is not acting any quicker.
The goal of this proposal and patch is to make these actions less cumbersome for the player to perform.
Perhaps play the game a bit more to give your brain some time to rewire itself to the new controls. If you're still not satisfied, you can set the cvar to use TDM 2.11 behavior.
tdm_frobhold_delay 0 -
Quick-press frob
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15 minutes ago, Skaruts said:
I would love to know how they did it, because if I ever do my own little thief clone, that's a feature I must include at all costs. It was just plain awesome.
The player model is a snowman.
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Frob to use item: double-click prototype
in The Dark Mod
Posted
The problem is that the object is moved slightly, leaving a trace. Some players who ghost strive to keep objects in their original position. With this control scheme, the object is shifted no matter what.