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Daft Mugi

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    [Feature Proposal] New Lean for TDM 2.12

    in The Dark Mod

    Posted

    Demonstration Video

    I wondered if I could implement an improved lean for The Dark Mod.

    How was the result? Please see for yourself by checking out the video.

    The video shows:

    1. Leans from multiple games that show less view angle and more slide.
    2. Comparison between Thief and this lean proposal.
    3. Comparison between TDM 2.11 and this lean proposal.
    4. Aiming and shooting arrows while standing and crouching.
    5. Tap lean ability.

    Motivation

    There is something about the original Thief game's lean that feels really good. It feels close to actually peeking around a corner while not jarring the view.

    In an interview with former Looking Glass Studios developers, the interviewer asks them how they got leaning to feel so good while other FPS games have not.

    Quote

    I [...] have a strange question, which [...] I can't articulate in any other way: Why is the lean so awesome in Thief? Because there are so many first person games that have a lean [where] the screen kind of [moves awkardly].

     

    In a tweet by NamelessVoice, the author of the widely used Thief FM script library called NVScript, he said:

    Quote

    [Amnesia: The Bunker] is another game that has leaning that just doesn't feel right. Too much tilting your head and not enough sideways movement. Makes it feel awkward to use to look around corners. It's not a huge thing, but when I was implementing my own leaning system, I found it felt so much better after I increased the horizontal movement and decreased the camera rotation.

    https://twitter.com/VoicelessName/status/1674565251067412480

    NV-lean-tweet.thumb.jpg.2da33e7d9aaa687934637333b95bf53d.jpg

    New Lean Proposal

    Provide a lean that is more similar to Thief-style lean.

    • Less view angle, more slide.
      • Feels more natural, less awkward.
      • Easier to aim and shoot arrows.
    • Unlean more quickly.
      • Feels like snapping your head back after suddenly seeing a guard.
    • Improved lean during crouch.
      • Compared to TDM 2.11, this lean can be used to see more around corners while crouched.
    • Tap lean ability.
      • Compared to TDM 2.11, this lean allows pressing the lean keybinding in rapid succession.

    Other:

    • Fixed "lean getting stuck sometimes" bug in TDM 2.11.
    • Fixed "lean getting stuck after saved game load" bug in TDM 2.11.

    Technical Details

    Bug Tracker

    https://bugs.thedarkmod.com/view.php?id=6320

    Cvars

    At the moment, the new lean is toggled on via the tdm_lean2_mode cvar.

    Other cvars include: 

    pm_lean2_time_to_lean      (default "400")
pm_lean2_time_to_unlean    (default "300")
pm_lean2_slide             (default "200")
pm_lean2_angle             (default   "8")
pm_lean2_angle_mod         (default "0.5")

    However, I didn't know how to proceed with this section.

    • Does the new lean replace the old lean?
    • Does the new lean become the default while keeping the old lean available?

    Code

    • TDM 2.11 uses a sine easing function. Instead, this new lean uses a cubic bézier easing function.

    For a 2.11-Like Lean

    For a lean that is similar to 2.11, its cvars can be set to the following: 

    pm_lean2_slide "100"
pm_lean2_angle "18"
pm_lean2_angle_mod "0.8"

    The following video shows a comparison between 2.11 and this new lean proposal with those cvar settings.

     

    • Like 16

  4. [Feature Proposal] Frob to Use World Item

    in The Dark Mod

    Posted

    @AluminumHaste Could you please make a new build? (Should be the last one.)

    I've updated the patch to fix a bug when auto-search bodies is enabled and delay is 0, and I removed the "tdm_frobhold_drag_body_behavior" cvar.

    After talking with a player on Discord, I changed the default delay to 200ms. Seems like that will also work well with your preference of 250ms.

    Pros of 200ms:

    • Dragging a body doesn't feel sluggish.
    • Putting out a candle is pretty fast.

    Cons of 200ms:

    • New players might make a mistake (at first or without some practice). But will probably be ok.

    I think using 200ms, which I know is good, is better than going with my original assumption. If players have trouble during dev or beta, it can be changed back to 300ms. Better that I go with data than assumptions. 🙂

  6. [Feature Proposal] Frob to Use World Item

    in The Dark Mod

    Posted

    2 minutes ago, wesp5 said:

    What happens if you frob something while carrying a body? Will the body be dropped at the same time? If so I suggest to go with that chakkman wrote and revert the setup: short frob pulls a body and extinguishes a light and long frob takes the body and the light and also drops both while short frobing works on everything else at the same time.

    When you are carrying a body and frob something, the body will not be dropped.

    If you are on Windows, please give the build that AluminumHaste released a try.

  7. [Feature Proposal] Frob to Use World Item

    in The Dark Mod

    Posted

    After some feedback, I changed the candle and lantern behavior to pick up on frob and extinguish on long-press frob.

    Candle holders without candles required a long-press frob to pick up. That didn't feel right.

    Pros of this change:

    1. More consistent: frob always picks up items, candles, and bodies.
    2. Long-press acts like a special action: drag for bodies, extinguish for candles.
    3. Bonus: long-press frob to extinguish feels like pinching out a candle.

    @AluminumHaste Could you please update the build again?

    • Like 2

  9. [Feature Proposal] Frob to Use World Item

    in The Dark Mod

    Posted

    7 minutes ago, AluminumHaste said:

    Also, when picking up and dropping bodies over and over again, it's supposed to flip the body over. Now it's flipping AND rotating the body 180 degrees

    On my end, it only rotates the body 180 degrees when the body is picked up with its head close to the player and feet furthest from player. If the body is picked up with its feet close to the player, it only flips. It seems to be TDM v2.11 behavior as well.

  10. [Feature Proposal] Frob to Use World Item

    in The Dark Mod

    Posted

    2 minutes ago, Wellingtoncrab said:

    It is still requiring "use-item" to drop the body with the new binary on my end.

    That shouldn't be the case. I wonder if it is the right binary?

    1 minute ago, AluminumHaste said:

    Ok......don't be mad but;........I tried a bit more with scrolling while holding down the button and it's fine.

    lol. No worries. So, are you saying I can remove the cvar?

  11. [Feature Proposal] Frob to Use World Item

    in The Dark Mod

    Posted

    @AluminumHaste

    I've updated the patch (same link as before):
    https://gist.github.com/daftmugi/41d0324107e8734f364bb3e50ff00794

    Added "tdm_frobhold_drag_body_behavior" cvar: 

    "tdm_frobhold_drag_body_behavior", default:"1"                                                     
Which drag body behavior?                                                                                
  1 --- on frob key up, drop body (limb).
  0 --- on second frob, drop body (limb), TDM v2.11 (and prior) behavior.

    Added drop body on second frob, while allowing frob on doors, switches, etc.
    (Not thoroughly tested, but it seems to be working as intended.)

    Could you please update the build?

  16. [Feature Proposal] Frob to Use World Item

    in The Dark Mod

    Posted

    I'll repeat some things from my original post.

    1. To drop a body, there are two keybindings "Use Inv. Item" or "Drop Inv. Item". Flash bombs are thrown with the "Use Inv. Item" key. These keybindings are TDM consistent. But I agree it would feel better if it were frob to drop.
    2. While shouldering a body, it is possible to frob a door to open/close it. So, frobbing cannot also be used to drop the body. (Perhaps the code can be changed to check if a door is not highlighted and then drop the body, but I'm not sure how much of a rabbit hole that will be or if it will not be buggy yet.)
    3. The "hold" to drag and "let go" to drop limb was a design decision. Personally, I've accidentally walked away from a body while unintentionally dragging it too many times, so I made that highly unlikely now. It also feels better to me, like I'm actually moving something and letting go. It can be easily changed back, but I find click to drag and click again to drop to be cumbersome and found that frustrating when I was a new player.

  17. [Feature Proposal] Frob to Use World Item

    in The Dark Mod

    Posted

    25 minutes ago, AluminumHaste said:

    If I can get the patch to play nice with my local copy I can upload binaries here for you guys to try.

    That would be great! Thank you!

    24 minutes ago, AluminumHaste said:

    Though I would suggest that you open a feature request bug tracker (bugs.thedarkmod.com) and post this patch there, just so devs can be notified if they don't see this thread,

    Already done: https://bugs.thedarkmod.com/view.php?id=6316
    (Also, included the patch link just now.)

    • Haha 1

  19. [Feature Proposal] Frob to Use World Item

    in The Dark Mod

    Posted

    15 hours ago, nbohr1more said:

    I am a little skeptical about this one.

    I admit that I was skeptical myself at first, but once I tried it in game, I changed my mind. So, I recommend applying the patch to a local build and give it a go in game. It's definitely better experienced than thought about.

    15 hours ago, nbohr1more said:

    I see it causing players to rage in frustration when they try to move lit candles and accidentally extinguish them

    before using the candles to solve candle-lighting puzzles like the one in "Seeking Lady Leicester".

    Regarding the candle puzzle in "Seeking Lady Leicester" (SLL), I agree that this proposed change will make that a bit more difficult, but I disagree on the reason why. The released version of SLL has a flint in the inventory to ignite them, so accidentally extinguishing candles shouldn't be much of a problem. Instead, I think the reason for player frustration would be that the unlit candles highlight, showing they can be frobbed, but when the player does frob, nothing would happen. They might not realize the candles can be picked up with a long-press frob. @Wellingtoncrab and I had a discussion about that exact puzzle during the design of this feature.

    So, what convinced me that it wasn't really a problem?

    1. I tried it in game.
    2. Players will learn how unlit candles look and behave when frobbed.
    3. Like @ChronA said above: "When most players click a candle 99.8% of the time they don't want to move it, they want to put it out." I decided it was better to optimize for what players expect most often and do most often rather than optimize for rare cases. Players already rage in frustration that they have trouble extinguishing candles or don't realize that they can. Another quote from a player on Discord: "I'd even say the "some players didn't know you could extinguish candles by using them" thing is "almost any new player and a lot of old ones too", since I once had an extended conversation about exactly how immersion breaking and weird it was to have to extinguish candles by dropping them, and literally not a single person brought up the fact that [extinguish candles by using them] was possible."
    4. During beta testing, the struggle that some beta testers had with the candle puzzle was not knowing about object manipulation. They didn't know about the "Parry/Manipulate" keybinding, or they forgot about object manipulation because they did the training mission roughly 5 years ago and had not needed to do it in a mission afterwards. So, "long-press frob to pick up" is in the same class of player interaction as object manipulation. In other words, the same problem already exists in TDM v2.11.

    I couldn't find the original screenshot from one of the SLL beta testers, but here's one similar, showing that the player didn't know about object manipulation:

    sll-candle-puzzle-q.thumb.jpg.10923b2f58bfa3ec478561b4f79fbff4.jpg

     

    15 hours ago, nbohr1more said:

    Also, mappers may have designed their missions in such a way that extinguishing candles is a timing challenge and auto-extinguishing via frob will spoil the challenge and tension.

    If this is truly in a released mission, I'd like to know about it. We can problem solve for that case if it does in fact exist. I don't think we should concern ourselves with something hypothetical, though. And, I disagree that we should make or keep controls cumbersome for the player in order to add challenge. I agree with @ChronA here. I don't think players are playing TDM for that type of challenge.

    15 hours ago, nbohr1more said:

    If we were to include this, I would suggest it be an option rather than a replacement. Players wanting to override the difficulty of missions can choose the new mode but can switch back to the default behavior if a puzzle needs solving, etc.

    The patch includes the following cvar: 

    "tdm_frobhold_delay", default:"300"                                                              
The frob hold delay (in ms) before drag or pick up.
Set to 0 for TDM v2.11 (and prior) behavior.

    When "tdm_frobhold_delay" is set to 0, candles and bodies have the same behavior as TDM v2.11. As of a few moments ago, bodies didn't quite have the same behavior. But based on your feedback, I updated the patch (linked above) to make bodies behave that way. Thank you for your feedback.

    • Like 3

  21. [Feature Proposal] Frob to Use World Item

    in The Dark Mod

    Posted

    Here's the draft code patch so that folks who compile TDM themselves can give this proposal a try in game. And, if you do, I look forward to your feedback!

    https://gist.github.com/daftmugi/41d0324107e8734f364bb3e50ff00794

    1. Install TDM v2.12 (dev16829-10455)
    2. Get the SVN repo
    3. Download "r10455-add-frobhold.diff"
    4. Apply SVN patch: "svn patch r10455-add-frobhold.diff"
    5. Compile
    6. Copy TheDarkMod.exe and glprogs to TDM (dev16829-10455) directory

    Or, @Wellingtoncrab has provided a Windows build. (includes new frob and new lean)

    1. Install TDM v2.12 (dev16829-10455).
    2. Download @Wellingtoncrab Windows build: https://drive.google.com/file/d/13lQig7Yzfc_jovU2zZklxLV1QOKAjkXe/view?usp=sharing
    3. Copy the TheDarkModx64.exe binary to your dev16829-10455 directory.

    Or, @Daft Mugi has provided a Ubuntu/Linux build. (includes new frob and new lean)

    1. Install TDM v2.12 (dev16829-10455).
    2. Download @Daft Mugi Ubuntu/Linux build: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1j7DoWBKuBAFdVH2Y-2LcYsgdtJNBabmn/view?usp=sharing
    3. Copy the thedarkmod.x64 binary to your dev16829-10455 directory.
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    [Feature Proposal] Frob to Use World Item

    in The Dark Mod

    Posted

    Complaint From Players

    The player must pick up candles before extinguishing them, and then the player must remember to drop the candle. The player must drag a body before shouldering it (picking it up), and the player must remember to frob again to stop dragging the body. The player finds this annoying or easy to make mistakes.

    For players who ghost, some of them have the goal of returning objects back to their original positions. With the current "pick up, use item, and drop" system, the item might not return easily or at all to its original position. For example, a candlestick might bounce off its holder.

    (See player quotes at the bottom.)

    Bug Tracker

    https://bugs.thedarkmod.com/view.php?id=6316

    Problems to Solve

    • How can the "pick up" step be eliminated so that the player can directly use or interact with the item where it is in the game world?
    • How can so much key pressing and mouse clicking be eliminated when the player wants to directly use an item?
    • How can candles be extinguished and lanterns toggled off/on without first picking them up?
    • How can bodies be shouldered without first dragging them?

    Solution Design Goals

    • Make TDM easier for new players while also improving it for longtime players.
    • Reduce tedious steps for common frob interactions.
    • Make it intuitive so that menu settings are unnecessary.
    • Do not introduce bugs or break the game.

    Terms

    • frob -- the frob button action happens instantly.
    • hold frob -- the frob button is held for 200ms before the action happens. (This can be changed via cvar: 200ms by default.)

    Proposed Solution

    Note: Some issues have been struckthrough to show changes since the patch has been updated.

    Change how frobbing works for bodies, candles, and lanterns.

    For bodies:

    • Frob to shoulder (pick up) a body. Second frob to drop shouldered body, while allowing frob on doors, switches, etc.
    • Hold frob (key down) to start drag, continue to hold frob (key down) to drag body, and then release frob (key up) to stop dragging body.
    • Also, a body can be dragged immediately by holding frob and moving the mouse.

    For candles/lanterns:

    • Frob to extinguish candles and toggle off/on lanterns.
    • Hold frob to pick it up, and then frob again to drop.
    • Frob to pick it up, and then frob again to drop.
    • Hold frob to extinguish candles and toggle off/on lanterns.

    For food:

    • Frob to pick it up, and then frob again to drop.
    • Hold frob to eat food.

    For other items:

    • No change.

    New cvar 

    "tdm_frobhold_delay", default:"200"                                                              
The frob hold delay (in ms) before drag or extinguish.
Set to 0 for TDM v2.11 (and prior) behavior.

    Solution Benefits

    Bodies:

    • New players will have less to learn to get started moving knocked out guards.
      • With TDM v2.11 and earlier, some players have played several missions before realizing that they could shoulder a body instead of dragging it long distances.
    • Frob to shoulder body matches Thief, so longtime Thief players will find it familiar.
    • Second frob drops a shouldered body.
    • Players still have the ability to both shoulder and drag bodies.
    • Compatible with the new auto-search bodies feature.
    • Dragging feels more natural -- just grab, hold, and drop with a single button press. There is no longer the need to press the button twice. Also, it's no longer possible to walk away from a body while unintentionally dragging it.
    • Set "tdm_frobhold_delay" cvar to delay of 0 to restore TDM v2.11 (and prior) behavior.

    Candles:

    • New players will have less to learn to get started extinguishing candles.
      • With TDM v2.11 and earlier, some players didn't know they could extinguish candles by picking them up and using them. Instead, they resorted to throwing them to extinguish them or hiding them.
    • Hold frob to extinguish a candle feels like "pinching" it out.
    • Once a candle is picked up, players still have the ability to manipulate and use them the same way they are used to in TDM v2.11 and earlier.
    • For players who ghost and have the goal of putting objects back to their original positions, they'll have an easier time and not have to deal with candles popping off their holders when trying to place them back carefully.
    • Set "tdm_frobhold_delay" cvar to delay of 0 to restore TDM v2.11 (and prior) behavior.

    Solution Issues

    Bodies:

    • Frob does not drop a shouldered body, so that might be unexpected for new players. This is also different than Thief where a second frob will drop a body.
      • "Use Inv. Item" or "Drop Inv. Item" drops the body. This is the same as TDM v2.11 and earlier.
      • This is the price to pay for being able to frob (open/close) doors while shouldering a body.
      • Patch was updated to drop body on second frob, while allowing frob on doors, switches, etc.

    Candles:

    • Picking up a candle or lantern requires a slight delay, because the player must hold the frob button.
    • The player might unintentionally extinguish a candle while moving it if they hold down frob.
      • The player will need to learn that holding frob will extinguish the candle.
      • The player can change the delay period via the "tdm_frobhold_delay" cvar. Also, when the cvar is set to a delay of 0, the behavior matches TDM v2.11 and earlier, meaning the player would have to first "Frob/Interact" to pick up the candle and then press "Use Inv. Item" to extinguish it.
    • Some players might unintentionally extinguish a candle when they are trying to move it or pick it up.
      • They need to make sure to hold frob to initiate moving the candle.
    • When a candle is unlit, it will highlight but do nothing on frob. That might confuse players.
      • However, the player will likely learn after extinguishing several candles that an unlit candle still highlights. It makes sense that an already-extinguished candle cannot be extinguished on frob.
    • The official "Training Mission" might need to have its instructions updated to correctly guide the player through candle manipulation training.
    • Updating the training mission to include the hold frob to extinguish would probably be helpful.

    Similar Solutions

    • In Fallout 4, frob uses an item and long-press frob picks it up.
    • Goldwell's mission, "Accountant 2: New In Town", has candles that extinguish on frob without the need of picking them up first.
    • Snatcher's TDM Modpack includes a "Blow / Ignite" item that allows the player to blow out candles
    • Wesp5's Unofficial Patch provides a way to directly extinguish movable candles by frobbing.

     

    Demonstration Videos

    Note: The last two videos don't quite demonstrate the latest patch anymore. But the gist is the same.

    This feature proposal is best experienced in game, but some demonstration videos are better than nothing.

    The following videos show either a clear improvement or that the player is not slowed down with the change in controls. For example, "long-press" sounds long, but it really isn't.

    Video: Body Shouldering and Dragging

    The purpose of this video is to show that frob to shoulder a body is fast and long-press frob to drag a body is fast enough and accurate.

    Video: Long-Press Frob to Pick Up Candle

    The purpose of this video is to show how the long-press frob to pick up a candle isn't really much slower than regular frob.

    Video: Frob to Extinguish

    The purpose of this video -- if a bit contrived -- is to show the efficiency and precision of this proposed feature.

    The task in the video was for the player to as quickly and accurately as possible extinguish candles and put them back in their original positions.

    On the left, TDM v2.11 is shown. The player has to highlight each candle, press "Frob/Interact" to pick up, press "Use Inv. Item" to extinguish, make sure the candle is back in place, and finally press "Frob/Interact" to drop the candle. The result shows mistakes and candles getting misplaced.

    On the right, the proposed feature is shown. The player frobs to extinguish the candles. The result shows no mistakes and candles are kept in their original positions.

     

    Special Thanks

    @Wellingtoncrab was instrumental in improving this feature during its early stages. We had many discussions covering varying scenarios, pros, and cons, and how it would affect the gameplay and player experience. Originally, I had a completely different solution that added a special "use modifier" keybinding. He suggested the frob to use and long-press frob to pick up mechanics. I coded it up, gave it a try, and found it to be too good. Without his feedback and patience, this feature wouldn't be as good as it is. Thank you, @Wellingtoncrab!

    And, of note, @Wellingtoncrab hasn't been able to try it in game yet, because I'm using Linux and can't compile a Windows build for him. So, if this feature isn't good, that's my fault.

    Code Patch

    I'll post the code patch in another post below this one so that folks who compile TDM themselves can give this proposal a try in game. And, if you do, I look forward to your feedback!

    Player Complaints

    TTLG (2023-01-10)

    Player 1:

    Quote

    Overcomplicated and weird solutions. Here overcomplicated solution is mentioned putting body on your back and extinguishing candles. Both requires frobbing them to pick them up and then you need to use extra button to put body on back/exstinguish candle. And for candle you need to remember to drop it. This becomes annoying very quickly. Why can't I just do these actions by simply frobbing them? I don't want to drag body/pick up candle.

    https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152006&page=2&p=2496339&viewfull=1#post2496339

    TDM Forums (2021-03-13)

    Player 2:

    Quote

    I wanted to ask how to do it but I just discovered quite randomly pressing enter [extinguishes candles]. It should be mentioned in controls/actions.

    https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/20842-extinguishing-candles/

    Player 3:

    Quote

    You pick up bodies in the same way, by the way. Just so you know, and don't realize after a year of playing the mod, like me...

    https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/20842-extinguishing-candles/&do=findComment&comment=458038

    TDM Forums (2023-06-17)

    Player 4:

    Quote

    For the life of me, I can't find anyway to pick up a body. Also can't loot a body either. I've tried every single key on the keyboard and mouse and nothing. The search here seem to focus on single words instead of a phrase or combination of words. HELP!

    https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22142-pick-up-a-body/

    TDM Discord (2021-05-18)

    Player 5:

    Quote

    I'm doing the training mission, object manipulation. I can't figure out how to snuff out a candle (without [throwing] it). [I've] seen it [done] by others on youtube. I can rotate, move it, drop it, but not [quietly] extinguish it. What's [the key]? Thanks.

    https://discord.com/channels/148841671751106563/148841671751106563/844358460497854495

    TDM Discord (2023-02-14)

    Player 6:

    Quote

    It does remind me that the way candles are extinguished in TDM is very unintuitive - being able to interact with candles to extinguish them is what I spent time figuring out on first playthroughs and having to abuse nearby geometry to achieve the same result (more noisily) is really weird.

    https://discord.com/channels/148841671751106563/148841671751106563/1075001336820670545

    Player 7:

    Quote

    I agree with you on this one - I'd like to be able to blow out the candles by just looking at them and pressing the "Use" button, without lifting them first. Pinching/blowing... whatever that is; all I want is to be albe to extinguish the candles without moving them around.

    https://discord.com/channels/148841671751106563/148841671751106563/1075002379549806623

    Player 8:

    Quote

    Oh, yes! I always hated that. Pinching the wick of a candle should not require me to pick up the candle, especially when it's so unnaturally difficult to put the candle back where it was.

    https://discord.com/channels/148841671751106563/148841671751106563/1075014078952652840

    • Like 9
    • Thanks 3

  23. Things that could be improved

    in The Dark Mod

    Posted

    On 2/21/2023 at 5:06 AM, Loginnerer said:

    Not sure if intended, but under configurable key bindings - there is "Broadhead", while other arrow types are followed by "Arrow".

    In-game inventory still shows "Broadhead arrow", so it's consistent with wording of other arrow types, but not consistent with how it is in controls Settings.

    Edit: I see "Noisemaker" is also without "Arrow", but I'm guessing both of these decisions were made to keep Controls screen more tidy by leaving strings approximately the same length? 

    Good catch! The code has been changed to show "Broadhead Arrow" and "Noisemaker Arrow".

    • Like 3
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    The Dark Mod 2.11 feedback thread

    in The Dark Mod

    Posted

    On 3/13/2023 at 10:30 PM, datiswous said:

    This might have been mentioned before but the auto-frobbing feature should only work for loot. Currently it also works for weapons laying next to each other (for example in map2 of A house of locked secrets), but if you do that then the hud items don't appear when you use them, making them impossible to use.

    Thanks for reporting!

    Committed fix as code rev 10448.

    • Like 3
    • Thanks 2
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