snatcher

Sample sizes of polls I've seen here aren't large enough to draw any conclusions. What do we do with 5 votes for option one, 4 votes for option two, and 2 votes for option three? Making decisions based on such low numbers would be irresponsible. Besides, as far as I can tell poll results are available in real time and because of this results can be biased for different reasons. Let's just put all elements on the table so that he who ultimately decides can take an educated decision.

Is anyone in here in favor of the current sorting (very first screenshot in this topic) over other options? Please speak up. By going current, missions are kind of sorted and mission names are respected. By going true alphabetical, missions are sorted and mission names are respected. By going article last, missions are kind of sorted and mission names are not respected. Please comment if you disagree or have something to add to my three points above. If I were to decide I would personally find defending the second option the easiest: how would you like Windows to sort your files and folders?

And alternative to all this is that players begin missions with a copy of "The Dark Mod" book in their inventory and yes @wesp5, that could be scripted no-problem. What the contents should look like? Feel free to fantasize with the idea

Good points. It's all about options but yeah, what a weird setting to have.

That's how it was in the past, apparently. What do you (all) think? Technical: I restored the commented out section in UpdateGUI() in file \game\ModMenu.cpp

I couldn't help it and played it yesterday night, just the fix I needed, thanks!!!

Congratulations on the release and thanks for your sharing your art with us!

Does this look like sorted? Does a true A-Z sorting look that bad? Technical: to get these examples I just commented out most of the stuff in MoveArticlesToBack() in file \framework\I18N.cpp

Shut up and take my money! Congratulations and thanks for sharing thebigh!

Congratulations on the release cugzkani! I haven't played it yet but looking forward to Two Bridges Too Far already

Something could be done with scripting but we might reach a point where a condition cannot be detected right at that exact moment and we would start making concessions and the goal would be impacted. This is something that must be done right to be truly useful, imho.

Ok! Let's list here tips for newcomers: The obvious and not obvious treasures and annoyances of The Dark Mod! Make it fun if you like: Trying to KO a guard wearing a heavy helmet for the first time: ah! you really thought you could put down everyone with your pitiful stick, didn't you?

Thanks for your work @stgatilov. This solution does what's advertised, it is out of the way and it doesn't break anything. There is potential for double-clicking untended results but in my case I had to force it too much to get undesired results. Dousing candles require now two key presses instead of three and while this doesn't solve "the problem" it is a step in a direction and it can be added to the game without a second thought, imho. Upon having tested @Daft Mugi's version I am of the opinion that a lo(o)ng-frob would feel more natural though, as if making an actual effort.

The concern that newcomers and players that play the game occasionally don't know or cannot figure out some features looks like a recurring topic. Since we cannot rely on the training mission alone I propose a "global tip system". First, we need a setting: In-game tips: Yes/No This setting must be easily accessible and therefore it should be included in the main menu or stand out in the settings screen. Now, when the setting is enabled players will get tips in ANY and ALL missions when triggering a condition for the first time. Examples: Player frobs a (shoulderable) ragdoll for the first time: To shoulder a body frob it and press "Use". Drop the body by pressing "Use" again. Player frobs a moveable extinguishable light for the first time: You can extinguish a candle by pressing "Use" while holding it. Find fire sources to relight candles. Player frobs a moveable switchable lantern for the first time: Press "Use" while holding moveable lights to switch them on and off. Player unlocks a door (or object) with a key for the first time: You can lock it again by selecting the appropriate key and pressing "Use". Player shoots a water arrow for the first time: Did you know water can clear blood stains and make moss grow stronger? Player shoots a rope arrow for the first time: Press "Attack" while hanging on the rope to swing. ...

There probably was something like that in the distant past but not anymore. New messages replace old messages instantly. I did notice this long ago and I agree the timing is so on the edge that the final implementation is at times more irritating than useful. Fortunately this can be easily changed: guis\tdm_inv.gui (time increased by 600ms in this example) windowDef InventoryPickUpMessage { rect 0,420-(20*(S5-1)+32*(S4-1)+14*(S3-1)),640,20*S5 textalign 1 // center text "gui::InventoryPickUpMessageText" font "fonts/carleton" forecolor 1,1,1,0.6 visible 1 textscale 0.25*S5 onTime 0 { set "gui::HasInventoryPickUpMessage" "1"; transition "forecolor" "1 1 1 0" "1 1 1 0.6" 50; } // onTime 700 { onTime 1300 { transition "forecolor" "1 1 1 0.6" "1 1 1 0" 500; } // onTime 1200 { onTime 1800 { // Signal that we are done here set "gui::HasInventoryPickUpMessage" "0"; set "InventoryPickUpMessage::visible" "0"; } }

Sorry that I cannot provide a more meaningful feedback: the current lean feels good to me and your new lean feels good to me as well. I must have low standards in this regard and both approaches are perfectly serviceable. You have my support for this change if it is perceived as an improvement. Something that's bothered me from day one though is that the left/right (and forward to a lesser relevance) lean buttons seem to have their own agenda. Freedom of movement is handicapped and you cannot lean left or right incrementally or left-to-right and right-to-left dynamically. For some reason you have to go back to straight every time before the next move. I don't know how to explain myself but just launch TDM and lean left/right repeatedly, you should understand what I mean.

This is most excellent news, @Daft Mugi! Thanks for your commitment and for your work. Now, I haven't tested anything nor checked the code but I guess you applied similar limitations than when shouldering bodies. Apologies in advance if this is not the case. At the risk of sounding ungrateful I will say something the same: I already suggested somewhere else that it would be ideal if you include in your workflow going forward a step to see if parts of the code you work on can be made script-friendly. I have seen scripts making use of functionality - previously made available by others - in the most peculiar ways. I would say, from the little experience I have, that even the most irrelevant variable or function can make a difference when realizing that mad idea in a map or as a mod. Having said that and once again: thank you very much for the efforts and for sharing the results with us.

I understand what you mean.

Yeah, actually @Daft Mugi could consider making parts of the source code he works on script-friendly, instead of adding obscure cvars that we easily forget about and might never be worthy of a proper in-game setting.

I like that we can extinguish candles and light on/off lanterns with a long frob. A lot. It feels very natural. Congratulations for the idea and execution. From an usability point of view I disagree with the default 200ms but since members here are confident players will always get the desired result consider me and oddball. Thanks for having provided a cvar for me to change the timing. I don't like the fact that the toying with bodies or body limbs mechanic has been rendered unusable. People that don't use this mechanic to its full extent won't understand the reasons: take a limb and painfully carry the body to another room, hide a body carefully in the most peculiar place and position, recreate a crime or comic scene... Only TDM provides this fun, for those seeking it. The potential of the mechanic is gone for both existing and new players: too much long frob / key press to bother. Don't try to convince me of the opposite. Please make a cvar for snatcher to shoulder and unshoulder bodies on long frob, just like with candles. This is, in my opinion, the wisest of the solutions. Many thanks in advance.

My references to Thief-be-like are generic, not targeting anybody in particular. Sorry if it sounded like it was directly or indirectly aimed at you. It wasn't my intention.

Sure, let's then just add a couple of settings to the menu: Shoulder body: frob/use Extinguish candle: frob/use For some reason we have an "Open Doors on Unlock" setting and surprisingly (for me) it is set to "Yes" by default. I don't quite understand why doors should open automatically and expose me but I guess back in the day there was a similar "Thief does it" discussion that fortunately ended up in truce.

I have been following this thread and I tried Wellingtoncrab's build. I thought about all this time ago and I made up my mind back then. I understand the desire for these changes but at the same time I understand why things are the way they are. The current TDM design is consistent and there isn't much room for improvement if we stick to what's available. Shortcuts won't cut it, a modern solution requires something else: less keys and more visuals, sorry to say. With my comments I am trying to warn that we probably are focusing too much on the goal and too little on the side effects 99% of players we will never hear from might face: A candle unintentionally extinguished is frustrating. Dropping bodies while operating doors is frustrating. Trying to hide a leg in the shadows only to end up shouldering the body is frustrating.

The fewer words you need to explain your mechanic the better it is designed: For static objects press "frob" to interact with them. For moveables press "frob" to grab them and "use" to interact with them. TDM follows these simple rules nicely. @Daft Mugi I welcome this initiative and I encourage you to carry on experimenting. Here are my thoughts: Interacting with moveable lights: currently to extinguish a candle I must "frob" it and "use" it. If I extinguish a candle unintentionally it is my fault (I pressed the wrong button). With your design, is it my fault if I frobbed a candle 201 milliseconds and extinguished it unintentionally? Long-pressing buttons in TDM is faulty because there isn't any visual timer / bar / whatever. Dragging vs shouldering a body: interacting with the limbs of a body is the more challenging of the two mechanics. Do we really want to promote the easiest of the two and make the challenging mechanic more difficult? Besides, with your design I unintentionally drop bodies often while I intend to interact with doors, is it my fault? In my opinion the short term solution is a very long frob (0,5 secs or longer) to extinguish a candle and/or shoulder a body. Leave the original mechanic intact but have the new functionality somewhere in there for those who want them. The long term solution is something else: what would you do if you were to build these mechanics from scratch? Think big. PS1: Developers should never point players to anything that isn't available in the in-game settings. cvars should be there for 1) debugging 2) testing 3) very special cases, mainly accessibility / usability. PS2: "This is how Thief does it" sounds like a lame excuse. Thief is dead, TDM is alive!

Fresh start. Never with saves. High Expectations is my best bet to force a crash, followed by Volta Cauldron. I have experienced occasional crashes with the bow in different missions since I started playing TDM and I sometimes like playing with a self-imposed no-save policy and I learned not to trust the bow, hence my interest in this bug. In High Expectations I start the mission, take a right turn in the tunnel and go to the square where the Hotel is. I then start acting like crazy: run, crouch, mantle blackjack somebody, raise the bow, press buttons a dozen times, do something else... If I don't get the crash I restart the mission and try again. I eventually get the crash.