New Movement Options?

[thestemmer]

Alright, sorry for starting a new thread, but the old one was getting kind of clogged and off-topic. I have a different question now, this time about movement options. I'm going call into attention the game Metal Gear Solid 2 (blaphsemy!) for a moment. Now, I didn't love the Metal Gear games--in fact, I never finished them--but one of the they had a few neat bells and whistles that I enjoyed a lot. For one, you could crawl, enabling the player to hide in small spaces, like under tables or other low objects. I also liked the fact that you could "tap" on a wall to get a guard's attention, although they did tend to forget about you rather quickly after that. The ability to hang over ledges was kind of neat, too, if not particularly realistic.

 

So, are you considering implementing any of these features into your finished product? Or, maybe a better question, might any of these even be possible using the D3 engine? I hope you guys (that is, "the team") doesn't mind that I'm pumping you for information--I'm just really excited about this mod and eager to see how it turns out.

Edited May 10, 2005 by thestemmer

[Domarius]

You can already crawl under tables in these games

 

I don't think tapping walls is going to go down too well - you have no idea how much trouble I had convincing these guys we need a noise arrow. The main reason against it being that you're not SUPPOSED to make noise... and the other reason being that you could just throw an object to get the same effect. (I have my counter reasons for those but they're in another thread and this topic won't be discussed here)

 

Hanging on ledges and moving left to right along them has been discussed briefly... but I can't remember the outcome of that discussion at the moment, or if it was even documented.

[Hylix Ulyx]

Thank You Stem!!!

 

You see!? I'm not the only one who wants a creepy crawly thief!

 

Hylix.

[thestemmer]

You can already crawl under tables in these games

I'm not sure what you mean by that. I don't recall ever being able to crawl under a table in any of the original Thief missions or in Thief DS, but maybe that's just a problem with the static meshes. Still, isn't an average table about 2.5 feet (.76 meters for all of you people with real number systems) high? Is our thief really short enough to fit under that when crouched?

 

Anyway, I could see a lot of different uses for crawling--you could conceal yourself in low foliage, hide behind a low outcropping, get under a low platform or a bed perhaps...imagine, you're in a bedroom, you hear footsteps approaching so you duck under a bed, only to have the person lie down on the bed...wouldn't that be a great pickle to get yourself out of? Granted, again I don't know if it's even possible with the D3 engine or worth the time and effort, but I don't think it would be a useless skill to have.

 

I might agree that tapping on walls isn't really necessary, as long as you have some other method of diverting a guard's attention. Did I read somewhere that you guys wanted to give the player a bag of rocks he could throw? That seems like a pretty practical alternative. As for hanging off ledges, it seemed like a gimmick in MGS, the king of gimmick games, so I can't imagine that people like OdDity would let it pass.

[Ishtvan]

If possible, I think we want to do some sort of reverse-mantle. Mantling hasn't been discussed yet as we haven't started coding it, so no promises.

 

We've had a lot of discussions on prone-crawling, and came to the conclusion that the benefits do not outweigh the problems associated with it. It would only be useful in very rare situations, so we would rather spend the programming time on more useful stuff, like lockpicking or AI responses. When the basics are done, maybe we can re-evaluate prone, but who knows.

[thestemmer]

I'm sure everybody agrees that pickable locks and competant AI should your first priorities. I also think it's very interesting that a reverse-mantle a possible item on your to-do list. How do you think it would be helpful in the context of the game?

 

And just out of curiosity, how tall is your thief going to be? Will he be able to fit under a table when crouched?

Edited May 10, 2005 by thestemmer

[FishFace]

Hmm... I absolutely love the mantle system in Thief - running around the Thieve's highway, jumping, mantling and generally being a monkey, there's so much freedom. hanging would be a worthy addition to the system. Any other ways you can make it freeer would be great, too...

[obscurus]

I for one am all for crawling, lying prone on your belly, in order to get into some really tight spaces. I always thought it was a bit silly that guards in Thief never followed you up ladders, and it meant you could get the attention of a bunch of guards and take them all out with a well placed gas arrow from a distance, when there is a fair chance at least one of the guards would have followed you up the ladder. And it is quite possible to climb a ladder in full armour carrying a sword and a shield, mediaeval knights did just that when they besieged castles (or so is my understanding, I might be wrong). But it seems reasonable to me that a thief should be able to squeeze into some pretty tight places, and crawl around (I don't care if you couldn't do that in the Original Thief games). I like the hanging on ledges idea, i hope that makes it in

[FishFace]

What was stupid was that in TDS, guards would actually look under tables for you, even though you couldn't hide under them...

[Pyrian]

What was stupid was that in TDS, guards would actually look under tables for you, even though you couldn't hide under them...

Well, they didn't know that. :lol: There were some desks and stuff you could get under.