Outlooker

Careful here. TV is, and has always been, the most powerful tool of mass propaganda that ever was. Almost everything in TV has purpose, very few things happen by chance. The typical 30 second - advertising spot is by far the most powerful yet most efficient advertising/propaganda tool ever devised. I could go deep into psychology here, but in a few words: Practically nobody sees himself influenced by ads, but if you scientifically test this almost everyone is hugely affected by it. Frequent mentioning/showing of a brand alone builds unconscious familiarity with it and reliably makes you choose the soda "you already know". That huge CocaCola ad budget really pays off. If people are tested to judge two unmarked soda cans for better taste, its mostly about 50:50, if you attach the CocaCola logo on one of them and some unknown on the other, it's becoming hugely in favor of CocaCola. Or kids programs: they're loaded with ads for stuff, and sales rocket reliably... Quality of programs is another issue. You want many viewers to sell much ads. Yet, attracting viewers means to offer some content. Interesting, quality content is expensive to produce. There are just no loads of really good quality stuff to fill the airtime. Really good stuff is a scarce resource, almost per definition. So why bother with such difficult stuff ? Most things advertised, that have highest profits, are stuff that mostly idiots want to buy. Perfumes, hight tech yogurts, sugar loaded sodas, fancy washing miracles, ringtones for mobiles, insane consumer credit offers and all that. The target audience is quite low tier. People with not much sense for quality, be it program or product. So,why waste resources ? You take the least quality program that gets the stuff done. Most what those people watch (and buy) should be a personal insult, yet they consume. It's like this: Smart people watch this stuff for some while; then they are disgusted of the bland content and repetivity and seek out more interesting things. Dumb people watch this stuff forever, all day, and do hardly anything else until they die. Dumb people are numerous and "good" consumers; if anything is good enough for them it will hardly be improved. It's good enough, doing it's job. The result is that ridiculous TV program. The sooner you notice how bad, distasteful, ad-laden , manipulative uninteresting stuff it really is and stop consuming it the brighter you are. And it's not just ads. They are forming mass consciousness with it too. I can speak only for German TV here, but shows where bold, righteous German public servants (police, public authority, ...) battle evil (murders, thieves, drug dealers) are hugely popular, and the states good servants always win. It's a huge brainwashing that you can trust your beloved government and it's representatives. If you do what you are told, everything will be in order..., the "officials" know best whats good for you and they always find out everything about everyone and always win in the end ... Every "opposition" is presented with an "evil" touch. May have something to do that we are a society of pensioners here, but you get the drift. Some things are even so ridiculously obvious that it looks hilarious : The "good guys" in German TV are practically ALWAYS driving costly high prestige German-made cars - so that never anyone is able to miss that fact, there are loads and loads of scenes where people get in/out of those advertised cars, or weird ages long takes in which they come along a driveway or whatever to make the beauty of that German car stand out. It's really funny, but few people notice actively. There are other things, like the police in the US has arranged with Hollywood since the 60ies: Shootings have to be unrealistically portrayed to feed real world crooks with wrong/deadly gun fighting behavior unconsciously : Instead of taking careful aim when shooting, or moving rapidly sideways in a shooting to lower chances of getting hit back while attacking most gun wielders are portrayed stationary shooting and taking no decent aim, looking "cool" - feeding that self destructive behavior in the brains of real time crooks which copy it widely - greatly benefiting police in thug/police shutouts in the US for example. The guy who had this idea even got a medal for it back then because it saved so much police officers lives and still does. Another propaganda tool are those "CSI"-like shows: They basically deliver the message that crime doesn't pay and in the end your cool good righteous government and it's employees notice, solve and punish every single crime, with incredible scientific methods nobody has any chance to stand against... They are airing stuff like that to reduce the crime rate. It's no coincidence, it has purpose. By making people think "they" will find everything out, know everything, with methods you cannot really grasp, it's better for you to not be criminal and don't try in the first place. It's successful propaganda/"education" that influences a good amount of people. And, I somehow see a general dumbing down of TV and big parts of the population. Decades ago, there was much interesting stuff in TV, like a professor teaching space flight stuff hour after hour, much to "dry" for todays audience. Today, even most documentaries are dumb stuff, leaving you knowing almost nothing more an hour later, like stuff about the greatest bridges or those nice US aircraft carriers and whatnot. You in GB have a rising Chav problem, and in Germany and France similar phenomenons are sharply on the rise. Some psychology professors/biologists here even predict (on the quiet) that humanity will split up in a more brainy group/subspecies and a much simpler one, because exponentially accelerating technological and cultural changes/challenges which only a small group of people can handle to their advantage. It's not necessarily that people get smarter, but those who are not so smart more and more ... stand out/behind. Oh god, my afternoon. Almost gone. I tricked my in writing too much gibberish ...

I'd like to see an "anti-moss arrow", something that makes some sound when you tread on but is inconspicuous when a guard steps on it. It's just like to have some rear cover - tripwire and stuff may be out of question, but an additional type of arrow that spreads a "noise mat" instead of moss would be very useful I think. Until now I helped me with pots and stuff that makes noise that I placed in suspected guards paths to warn me acoustically of an approaching guard; I wished I had some more professional tool to handle that important thing. I know there are many requests and much work to do, but maybe implementing such a functionality could be quite easily done ?

@Bikerdude Such a elaborated cathedral should be used to maximum effect. Don't waste potential by making that one a simple sneak and grab mission. Just elaborate on storyline and use of that wonderful map. I'm not the most creative guy, but if I'm allowed to give suggestions: Split that mission up nicely. First, one hast to enter town (which is closed down) - at night as usual - and make base at a local inn. You only get to see this builders beauty from afar. Second, short daylight mission: You disguise as novice or something and enter the cathedral during a sermon - while sneaking in equipment in a delivery box or hiding it on the grounds - then you enter the (restrictedly accessible) public areas of the cathedral and maybe try to pickpocket some keys for later (or duplicate them). Then you have to find a good hiding place for the actual cathedral mission at night. You could extend the profit from your building structure easily that way by splitting it up in day/night-missions: Just change some lighting, candles, sunbeams for moonbeams, and one could use AWESOME bright glass stained windows in the daylight mission while using a toned down version for the night. Just saying that something as impressive as that building is inspiring even more awe if you present it cleverly (bit by bit) and use it not just once.

I just remembered that in Deus Ex the storyline was hugely important to me. Not only was it thrilling, it was, besides gameplay, a very significant motivator for playing. A lot of conversations and readables had interesting philosophical content, which got me hooked even more. Deus Ex without storyline and it's spots of philosophy would have been more than 50% less interesting, to me at least.

Stories should be no total crap. This can taint an otherwise good mission. Playing thief, I always wanted to be a naughty character. No worldsaver. Primarily, you steal ordinary protected valuables. It's that simple. Luckily a good enough thief story is about nothing more than that. From whom or why only really matters in a good way if one manages to build a more complex story/mission _during_ which the player can build an affection to one group or individual. Such missions may be more enjoyable, though. But to make a story really important, beneficial to gameplay, motivating to achieve something, it has to be carefully build up. If a story is supposed to emotionally touch/motivate the player, readables will probably not be enough; something must be _experienced_ in-game; like the execution of a friend or possible future mating partner. If done well, such things can actually build up a good chunk of atmosphere by themself.

This thing is not commercial so the goal to make it easily enjoyable to the maximum number of people doesn't need to apply here. Easy or not, players will have some missions they like much more than others anyway. And as far as I know many of those T1/2 fanmissions regarded as the best are quite difficult. Speaking for myself, I _hate_ those dumbed down games of today. Developers are shy to implement the slightest element of complexity to attract the widest audience (includes 9-year-olds and the community of the slow brainers = max. money). Result: Stuff like DeusEx2 and the stakkato of somehow all the same hollywood movies. I just think a mission can't be truly awesome if it's only stupidly easy. Edit: And: I think the more complex a mission is, the more replay-value there is.

A quick sidenote on "journals". I mean those books/papers laying openly around and containing highly secret information. Come on. You are in the house of a plotting nobleman or unhonest businessman and there, look, his papers. Inside all his secret doings listet nicely one after another, describing his crimes, and, of course, the position of that tiny switch to open his secret stash of loot. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to play as Sherlock-Holmes-Ninja, but please ! I have a brain, you know. I want to draw conclusions. Journals are nice to further some story. They are not nice if they are the über-loot.

Easy to demand, but often tricky to do. A lot of extra work is needed to built in "citylife", like a little traffic, beggars, commerce, pedestrians, brothels, markets... It's a lot of stuff you have to build around the actual mission. Much detail is necessary. However, I think a good portion of such atmosphere can be brought in through proper use of sound. Just listen to this mp3 from TDS - it makes one think there is a living city, just behind the next wall. http://208.49.149.120/files/jukebox/thief/...d%20Squares.mp3

Yes, but this would make ghosting impossible. And another guard might see/find the guard beeing gassed/laying down and activate alarm. I intend to have somehting against those "damn, where came this guard from"-situations which make you reload; which i think is not good for immersion. I want at least a good chance to prevent being surprised if I'm acting like a careful, responsible thief.

I hope I do not terribly wrong by opening a new thread about this, but I found no recent threads being abouth such a thing. My Idea: The way the game goes, one will sooner or later find oneself checking/looting some room. Doing this, the thief will probably often be in good light and find himself making noise (jumping for something on top of the shelves or such actions). In such situations it would be favourable not to be surprised (=found) by an patroling guard opening a door and entering the room. Yes, I know, a good thief always listens (for a guards foodsteps in this case). But there is no way one can always reliable detect an aproaching guard, because -it may be barefoot (long story) -it may tread on carpet and thus is not heard -it may tread on moss arrow derivative (placed by a soon to be surprised thief to move silent himself) -the door between thief and guard is shut So, there is constant risk for the thief for being cought by surprise, being fundamentally unable to do anything to prevent such desaster. I suggest a new class of tool. First ideas: 1)Some crackling/noise making powder (if stepped on) or arrow/bomb releasing such; basically the opposite of the moss arrow; even nutshells on a carpet could work this way 2)tripwires, small motion detectors, glued to the ground screaming if treaden on snails, (I'm going way off here) You get the idea. And no, I don't intend to ruin gameplay. This new tool should be only to be used on "tough spots" on the map, as the usual moss arrow is already , but just in the opposite way. I have high hopes to hope you guys work that in, I think it would be easy to implement and further gameplay. Unless my idea is nonsense, of course.

On the average city streets, among other normal town people, in the dark,in which one only can identify a face a few meters away, a thief should not arouse suspicion, if he walks with some distance to others. On a more or less crowded street people don't care for other people who don't behave odd. I think as long as you don't climb on buildings for others to see, run, creep, have a weapon drawn etc. one should be able to move freely in public places. If the thief has to have a suspicious hood - well, in poor light and on a distance it's hard to tell if this is a suspicious hood or a ordinary hat of some kind. Townsfolk/City Watch should only be able to identify you if they are closing in too much. If the thief doesn't come near them (maybe 5 meters) they shouldn't react.

Maybe all settles with the stealth system itself - that better be good. One could take out all the tools of Thief in ones thought and it should be, stripped of every weapon, climbing ability, potions etc. , perfectly playable then (on a map that not needs this abilities of course). Traits in this "ultrapure" experiment would be recognized as of the same key importance as in every imaginable"ability-improved" version. I guess those would be sound, lighting, and the behaviour of the AIs. The AI should have a rich reservoir of behaviour - making it more difficult to manouver them out. They should not always shout their staus out ("Is there something", "I see you", "This was nothing", "Must have been a rat",...) like in T3. Some could be more ... cunning. Already a small random change in patroling routine or a sudden random turn around would add thrill and immersion.

Yes, that's very true. I also wouldn't like a Thief with a barrage of colourful crazy superweapons throwing around. It's kind of taking the style, the "seriousness" out of it. Even the gasbombs in T3 insulted me - what's the point of jumping around with half a dozen of those and K.O. a whole street. Mhmm... what about an grappling hook then ? it would be puristic, and could enhance gameplay - the player would not be limited to wooden beams such as designated "shoot rope arrow here" places. It would be puristic; but I already see the problems ... difficult to implement and it would be hard to stop the player to "hook about" too much in maps.

Well, then. I'm not saying my ideas are gold, but I have a certain desire for more complexity - and even small, easily implementable things can greatly add to that. It's like, I have the feeling (and hate it) that in the last few years games have been "dumbed down" somehow - well, I can't put it right into words ... it's not that I want ultrarealism (that would be tedious) . But I grew older and I still like computer games - but I'd like to have games that are not easily beaten by eight-year-olds, if you know what I mean. While story and some styling are in the hands of FM authors, I'd welcome a bit more complex and interdependable gameplayfunctions - somehow taking the stealth/thieving thing a step (or two) further. And for the arrows : It's like the gasarrow is the ultraouttaker-weapon in the game: instant, silent, non-deadly, easily used. So there can only be a very limited supply for good gameplay, to use it in really tough spots or as a last resort-weapon. Yes, ultimately an hypnotic tipped arrow has the identical effect - but much later, and this is gameplay-wise its great plus - you have to use it in a skilled, planned manner, or he will be useless. So, there can be more of those than gas arrows. You don't even have to make a new arrow - a standard broadhead could be "used" on some potion in the inventory (dipped in the liquid) and there you are, your ready to use tranquilizer dart. Edit: Thinking about that concept/reading about pagan weaponry above, I think that concept is expandable: Water arrows could be "dipped" (used on) in potions - you could have an tear-gas arrow in this way, pagan-kind-of - it only stops the AI if shot in the face, makes it scream (alerting), but allows for passing by or taking keys off the gurdle etc. Moss arrow + potion X ->slippery surface (aka T3) Rope arrow + potion Y ->sticky arrow, for towing objects in (G. could sit in some beams in the ceiling, shooting an sticky arrow down to rope up things like a key or loot from a table in some otherwise unenterable room because of guards) fire arrow + potion Z -> smoke arrow, for escapes ninja style

Hi, I'm new here and start a new topic as an introduction right away , but I searched available posts and found none that really covered my concerns. I'm an Thief/Thief fanmission - player for some years now (not uncommon here I think) and I fell in love with your DarkMod thingy right away. I read through the posts here on the forum and was impressed with the good ideas and ongoing work. There have been posted many new ideas for improving the thief experience, gameplay, realism and so on. I understood that many stuff that would be great to implement in the mod can't be implemented because it would take too much time and effort to program these new features - at least for the first more basic version(s) to come. As this is very understandable, I think that you should implement some new features - features that no thief/fanmission had before. Why ? All missions I played were mostly different almost only regarding story and (to a much lesser extent) textures/models/maps. The core of the experience - stealth - hasn't changed much. It's more or less always the same: stay in shadows, learn about guard routines, blackjack, ... I mean, well, that's great and all, and it's challenging (a bit) even to longtime players of the series if the map is made difficult, but ,well - I would like to advance the whole basic gameplay a bit - if only as a optional feature for the fanmission designers. I'm aware that those advancements have to be quite easy to implement, so the making of the mod is not delayed much. So I have two ideas - implementing stamina/endurance and the introduction of hypnotics as weapons : It alwayy vexed me that G. could sprint through the entire map, climb up a house in a hurry, carry some heavy bodies in the darkness and swim half a mile underwater - without having to breath heavily (loudly!) and being able to do difficult things like lockpicking right away. Gameplay could be improved (at least at harder difficulty levels) tactic-wise if one had to plan more : If you had a stamina-meter, and some actions (running, diving, heavy lifting...) would deplete it , a mission could be a bit more challenging and realistic. Hiding silently - only possible when at least half stamina is available, if not G. is breathing heavily - loud enough to alert guards close by. Lockpicking ? Not possible unless rested to some extent or it would take a longer time. When drawing the bow a longer time, the more your stamina depletes and your shots become less accurate. Roping up along way ? Forget about immediately having max. accuracy with the bow or being able to lockpick in a short time. Probably much more stamina dependent things could be added. I think that system could easily improve the gameplay / possible complexity of a mission in a positive way, and I think it could be comparably quick coded in. My second idea is about hypnotics. Well, we have gas arrows. But they are very powerful (dropping enemies instantly but nonlethal, and are very easy to use, too), so they can damage gameplay and are as a result usally very scarce. If one had an regular arrow, tipped with an hypnotic drug, things could become much more interesting. The arrow will not drop it's victim right away - it takes time, and the victim notices it, of course. So, the challenge for the user is to use this arrow in a way the victim has not enough time to alarm others or do some other unwanted actions (alarm bell, locking doors, ...) before the "dart" takes effect and the guard falls unconscious - which could spice up maps considerably. They could work more or less like the tranquilizer darts in deus ex, but with some more time to take effect. Also, I think this functionality is comparably easy to code in - just make an arrow that makes the victims hp to drop slowly - but could have a vast effect on the gameplay.